Does the Bible mention Islam?

adrian009 said:

Its always good to have a dictionary on hand.

It may be clear to you, buts its not entirely clear to me.

Shoghi Effendi appears to say the exact opposite;

Let no one, however, mistake my purpose. The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause. Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose. It is neither eclectic in the presentation of its truths, nor arrogant in the affirmation of its claims. Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final. Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 57-60

So Baha'u'llah abrogates dispensations, but not religions....

Do you still feel the same clarity?

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Thanks for pointing that out. I have never seen that passage.

So what does it mean that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah unconditionally abrogated all the Dispensations gone before it but not the religions?

Abrogate: If someone in a position of authority abrogates something such as a law, agreement, or practice, they put an end to it. Abrogate definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Think about it. Baha'u'llah could not put an end to the previous religions because they are all part of the eternal religion of God. However, given that their dispensations have been abrogated, we are not supposed to be following to those religions. Clearly, in the following passage, Baha'u'llah is enjoining us to follow His Faith:

adrian009 said:

OK. So Baha'u'llah tells us we all have the capacity to recognise God and His Messengers. Being selfish and following in the footsteps on one's ancestors are two reasons identified as man failing in his duty to recognise the Manifestation of God. Further we are accountable to God for tat failure.

Kinda reminds me of;

The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 330-333

So if our duties are to not only recognise the Manifestation of God for this day but to observe every ordinance....are there any ordinances about teaching the Faith to others?

If any man were to arise to defend, in his writings, the Cause of God against its assailants, such a man, however inconsiderable his share, shall be so honored in the world to come that the Concourse on high would envy his glory. No pen can depict the loftiness of his station, neither can any tongue describe its splendor. For whosoever standeth firm and steadfast in this holy, this glorious, and exalted Revelation, such power shall be given him as to enable him to face and withstand all that is in heaven and on earth. Of this God is Himself a witness.
(Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 330)

Teaching

I don't know if this counts as an ordinance but it appears Baha'u'llah strongly encourages us to arise and defend the cause of God against assailants.

That's an interesting way of looking at it, because my inclination on this forum is to avoid any direct teaching. Instead I am here to learn more about religion. However, something strange happens with some threads. Every now and then someone comes along and opposes the Cause of God. One of the participants on this thread was so affected by the conversation here that he decided to start a thread arguing Baha'u'llah was a false prophet.

Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

For me that was exciting because I then get to defend the Cause of God. I can't imagine I'll come anywhere near the exalted state Baha'u'llah is talking about though....besides it would be selfish of me to think that way.

So back to teaching.....and what Baha'u'llah says;

If they arise to teach My Cause, they must let the breath of Him Who is the Unconstrained, stir them and must spread it abroad on the earth with high resolve, with minds that are wholly centered in Him, and with hearts that are completely detached from and independent of all things, and with souls that are sanctified from the world and its vanities. It behoveth them to choose as the best provision for their journey reliance upon God, and to clothe themselves with the love of their Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious. If they do so, their words shall influence their hearers.
(Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 200)

If we are teaching Baha'u'llah is saying we should have our minds wholly centred on Him, be completely detached and independant of all things and our souls are sanctified from the world and its vanities. Well that's a pretty big ask. I doubt if too many of us could claim to reach that exalted state and perhaps part of that state would be a state of completely forgetting self.

What I was really wanting to consider was our attitude towards those we endeavour to teach and the humility required.

In accordance with the divine teachings in this glorious dispensation we should not belittle anyone and call him ignorant, saying: ‘You know not, but I know‘. Rather, we should look upon others with respect, and when attempting to explain and demonstrate, we should speak as if we are investigating the truth, saying: ‘Here these things are before us. Let us investigate to determine where and in what form the truth can be found.’ The teacher should not consider himself as learned and others ignorant. Such a thought breedeth pride, and pride is not conducive to influence. The teacher should not see in himself any superiority; he should speak with the utmost kindliness, lowliness and humility, for such speech exerteth influence and educateth the souls.
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 30)

Further Baha'u'llah tells us to never contend or dispute with any soul. I guess we need to express wisdom and understanding in what we say. I wonder what the phrase conquer with the sword of inner meaning and explanation means? I'm sure I've crossed a few lines more times than I care to think.

It followeth, therefore, that rendering assistance unto God, in this day, doth not and shall never consist in contending or disputing with any soul; nay rather, what is preferable in the sight of God is that the cities of men’s hearts, which are ruled by the hosts of self and passion, should be subdued by the sword of utterance, of wisdom and of understanding. Thus, whoso seeketh to assist God must, before all else, conquer, with the sword of inner meaning and explanation, the city of his own heart and guard it from the remembrance of all save God, and only then set out to subdue the cities of the hearts of others.
(Bahá’u’lláh, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 109-110)

Anyway, theres alot more quotes on teaching here...

Teaching

I'm rambling now....

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I have several Word documents that have all the proclaiming and teaching quotes that are in Gleanings...
I think you and I are on the same page.

I am happy to see that us Baha'is are providing so much entertainment....
Everyone needs entertainment once in a while.
We are so funny.

Marcion said:

The Bible does not mention Islam because Islam had not been invented when the authors of the Bible lived. It is that simple. Look how long this topic is and how it is full of lengthy posts with all kinds of lengthy high sounding quotes and none of them come up with this simple answer. Juggling with other people's religions is useless if you are not truly concerned with its spiritual content.

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That is why it is a book of Prophecy

It is because a Baha'i explores the spiritual content, that I guess the Revelation of Muhammad is clearly seen in the Bible.

Makes sense, as we have One God.

Be happy be happy be full of joy!



Regards Tony

Trailblazer said:

Of course it is helpful in teaching if we have a sound knowledge of history, including religious history, and also of social and economic subjects, but if we only have so much time it is more important to know the Baha’i Writings. I have not even read much of God Passes By and I have not read the Dawn-Breakers, and I do not know as much as I should about the Administration. He said “a mastery.”

I know the Iqan and Some Answered Questions pretty well, but I should read the Dawn-Breakers, unless you think it is more important for me to read Christian history.

I think a much better use of my limited time would be to learn more about Islam.

I have learned most of what I know about Christianity by being on various forums. I feel that learning from others while they learn from me accomplishes more than if I just studied their scriptures alone.

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Abdu'l-Baha said little by little, day by day. I think we need to set achieveable goal for ourselves. Choose 1 or 2 lines of action. Its great you are so familiar with the Kitab-i-Iqan and some answered questions. Reading the dawn-breakers seems like a priority.

I have been learning about Islam through some of the threads I've started in the last 6 months such as this one. Maybe the will be more Muslims participate on RF. There are relatively few here although there's a couple having a pop at the Baha'is at the moment....which is a welcome opportunity to be challenged and learn more. Western Baha'is are much more accustomed to talking to Christians than Muslims. Its also useful to be a defacto Muslim apologist.

I have a world history book by my bedside that I occasionally pick up. Being online over the last 2 years inevitably has caused me to study history. I'd like to learn more about Buddhism and Hinduism.

Its quite interesting being an active member of a community. We have a diversity of people, some knowledgeable, some who know little. Its all good. I'm nearly finished doing a Ruhi book 4 study that is all about the lives of the twin Manifestations of God.

We all learn in different ways and I think its great you have learnt as much as you have.

Trailblazer said:

Thanks for pointing that out. I have never seen that passage.

So what does it mean that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah unconditionally abrogated all the Dispensations gone before it but not the religions?

Abrogate: If someone in a position of authority abrogates something such as a law, agreement, or practice, they put an end to it. Abrogate definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Think about it. Baha'u'llah could not put an end to the previous religions because they are all part of the eternal religion of God. However, given that their dispensations have been abrogated, we are not supposed to be following to those religions. Clearly, in the following passage, Baha'u'llah is enjoining us to follow His Faith:

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.

Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136​

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My understanding is that we are now in the new era of human history and Baha'u'llah's Revelation meets the requirement for this age. There are of course eternal teachings throughout all religion. So many principles in past religions that will enable people to live outstanding lives and contribute to the greater good. Also many of the Baha'i priciples are now simply those of popular discourse such as the oneness of humanity and the equality of men and woman. So the various adherents of religions of old are all looking at their heritage and sacred writings with new eyes and seeing teachings that they hadn't seen before. So many people are in tune with the new spirit of the age. Many are not of course. Maybe we need to be the quickeners of mankind?

Quickeners of Mankind

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

The I Am, the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last.

The Jesus the Christ that says;

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Regards Tony

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The Bible indicates that one is unsaved unless they confess Jesus as Savior, God in flesh.

BilliardsBall said:

Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed response. We can arguably agree that Jesus was crucified for claiming sonship, not something else, but if the Bible is divinely inspired, it also claims:

a) Jesus died and rose for salvation
b) Salvation is a free gift (Jesus paid for it)
c) Jesus said "unless you believe that I AM HE" you will perish, making I AM critical (singular!) and HE singular, unique

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Salvation, the Resurrection and the exclusivity of Jesus the Christ are all major areas of discussion. I'm happy to discuss anyone of those areas or all of them but its off topic for this OP. We could discuss how these concepts vary between different Christians, Muslims and Baha'is and that is another major area too.

Here's some threads I've started during the last 2 years that I've been posting on RF.

Religious Faith - Inclusive or exclusive of other Faiths?

Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection

Salvation through Christ: Unique to Christianity or applicable to other faiths?

Resurrection of Christ: Literal fact or spiritual reality?

The Exclusivity of Christianity: Myth or Reality

If you would like to discuss any of these topics let me know and either one of us can start up a new thread and tag the other.

BilliardsBall said:

The Bible indicates that one is unsaved unless they confess Jesus as Savior, God in flesh.

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As that is interpretation and not stated in scripture, I would consider these passages to be more relevant;

Proverbs 30:5-6 "Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar. Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him."

Matthew 22:29 "But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God."

Mark 7:13"thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I would offer think about it this way. The Gospels are a record of what Christ offered, but passed on in stories before being recorded.

Thus try it this way, read this Tablet by Bahau'llah;

Tablet of the Bell (Tablet for the Feast of Ridvan)

Imagine you now memorise that Tablet and lets say record it 100 years later. We can see in this modern age it was not a literal story, but what if we now took that story at literal value?

Christ would have been speaking the same language and there are not many people that can unravel the unlimited spiritual mysteries these passages contain.

Regards Tony

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That's comparing apples with something that is not an apple. There is a difference between historical narrative and poetry. So are the gospels meant to be the story about what Jesus said and did? Like I've said before, if it ain't what happened, then it isn't true. If it ain't what Jesus said and did, then it's made up fiction. I'm fine with that. Religious myths can have people dying and coming back to life. It can have angels and demons appearing and disappearing, but it ain't real. It's fiction.

So is the NT fiction? Jesus didn't cast out demons and rise from the dead? It seems like a Baha'i would answer that question with a "yes". But, for some reason, they twist things around to make it true and fiction at the same time. So what is it Baha'is believe, that the spiritual meaning is true but the event is fictional? Great, then the NT is a fictional story with great messages of truth in it.

adrian009 said:

It’s a compelling and soul stirring narrative. It’s on a par with the creation myth, Noah’s flood story and Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. We all have the capacity to consider the stories ourselves. Believeing its all literal defeats the purpose.



When did God ever insist we take all this literally? He never did. He asks us to think for ourselves and not be blind followers of our ancestors. That’s the whole point of the Gospels. A new dawn has come has it not? The truth shall set you free (John 8:32). Seek and Ye shall find (Matthew 7:7).



Believing in the Gospels and believing they are literally true are two different things.

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Well, evangelical Christian could say the opposite is true. To make the stories allegorical defeats the purpose. It's like the Santa Claus myth. A little kid tries to do good, believing Santa is making a list. Jesus and the Christian interpretation of God are making lists also. Who believes in the Son and who doesn't. If you don't, God will send you to hell. If you do, you get to spend eternity with Jesus in heaven. Lots of us don't buy in to that myth. But, for those that do, they pattern their behavior and their whole lives around their beliefs that Jesus and God are exactly as what the Bible says. Of course, with a few interpretive things mixed in that aren't in the Bible, but are things that they think are inferred.

Believing in the Gospels but not believing they are literally true? What? No, that's making the gospels into whatever your prophet says they are. Which is something different than what Christians make them. And, they don't take a 100% literal anyway... just where it is obviously taking about the things that were happening. Baha'i take those same events and make those not literal. Because who needs a dying and rising God/man that saves humanity from sin, Satan, and hell and that casts out demons and walks on water? Nobody... that is, other than Christians.

adrian009 said:

Abdu'l-Baha said little by little, day by day. I think we need to set achieveable goal for ourselves. Choose 1 or 2 lines of action. Its great you are so familiar with the Kitab-i-Iqan and some answered questions. Reading the dawn-breakers seems like a priority.

I have been learning about Islam through some of the threads I've started in the last 6 months such as this one. Maybe the will be more Muslims participate on RF. There are relatively few here although there's a couple having a pop at the Baha'is at the moment....which is a welcome opportunity to be challenged and learn more. Western Baha'is are much more accustomed to talking to Christians than Muslims. Its also useful to be a defacto Muslim apologist.

I have a world history book by my bedside that I occasionally pick up. Being online over the last 2 years inevitably has caused me to study history. I'd like to learn more about Buddhism and Hinduism.

Its quite interesting being an active member of a community. We have a diversity of people, some knowledgeable, some who know little. Its all good. I'm nearly finished doing a Ruhi book 4 study that is all about the lives of the twin Manifestations of God.

We all learn in different ways and I think its great you have learnt as much as you have.

Click to expand...

I am not much of a planner. I only plan things when absolutely necessary, and only things related to the material world. Otherwise, I just go where the breeze blows me...

Lately, the breeze has blown me back to another forum, to my atheist friends... I tried to lay low there but now that are after me so I feel responsible to respond...


I really do not have the time for all these forums so I will have to cut back here some... I won’t jump ship, I will just be running my ship back and forth...

To be honest, I prefer talking to atheists because they are a lot of fun... They enjoy talking about the god they do not believe in and I prefer talking about God rather than religion.

My friends over there also make fun of my beliefs, they think they are funny, but it is all in fun so it does not bother me... At the very least, they will learn something about God and the Baha’i Faith and at best, who knows?

CG Didymus said:

Well, evangelical Christian could say the opposite is true. To make the stories allegorical defeats the purpose. It's like the Santa Claus myth. A little kid tries to do good, believing Santa is making a list. Jesus and the Christian interpretation of God are making lists also. Who believes in the Son and who doesn't. If you don't, God will send you to hell. If you do, you get to spend eternity with Jesus in heaven. Lots of us don't buy in to that myth. But, for those that do, they pattern their behavior and their whole lives around their beliefs that Jesus and God are exactly as what the Bible says. Of course, with a few interpretive things mixed in that aren't in the Bible, but are things that they think are inferred.

Believing in the Gospels but not believing they are literally true? What? No, that's making the gospels into whatever your prophet says they are. Which is something different than what Christians make them. And, they don't take a 100% literal anyway... just where it is obviously taking about the things that were happening. Baha'i take those same events and make those not literal. Because who needs a dying and rising God/man that saves humanity from sin, Satan, and hell and that casts out demons and walks on water? Nobody... that is, other than Christians.

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Everyone has their take. The Muslims believe the Bible is corrupted and superseded by the Quran. Many Hindus will say there are many gods and of those that believe in a monotheistic God, will insist its not the God of Abraham. Some Buddhists will claim there isn't even a God or a soul. Some agnostics will argue we can't posibly know and it doesn't matter. Some atheists will say we can know and all religion is founded on lies. So who do we believe and why? Who has the most compelling narrative?

We all know the Christian narrative. Jesus was crucified and after 3 days literally rose from the dead, appeared to many over 40 days and then ascended to be with His father in heaven. If that is what you believe then you are a Christian as only the Christians truly believe this.

Trailblazer said:

Thanks for pointing that out. I have never seen that passage.

So what does it mean that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah unconditionally abrogated all the Dispensations gone before it but not the religions?

Abrogate: If someone in a position of authority abrogates something such as a law, agreement, or practice, they put an end to it. Abrogate definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Think about it. Baha'u'llah could not put an end to the previous religions because they are all part of the eternal religion of God. However, given that their dispensations have been abrogated, we are not supposed to be following to those religions. Clearly, in the following passage, Baha'u'llah is enjoining us to follow His Faith:

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.

Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136​

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Sometimes I think the best Baha'is are those that aren't Baha'is at all.

If the Baha'i Faith is the changleless Faith of God, Eternal in the past, eternal in the future, then isn't Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism also the Baha'i Faith.

If religion is one, then where does the Baha'i Faith begin and end?

If a Christian manages to successfully implement ten of God's eternal Teachings to their life and the baha'i manages just one, then who is better off. Are we 'superior' because we are Baha'is and they are Christians?

As Baha'is are we not enjoined to overcome all religious prejudice?

The more I think about it, the more I think dispensation refers to an era or a period of time associated with the rise and fall of religions.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

As that is interpretation and not stated in scripture, I would consider these passages to be more relevant;

Proverbs 30:5-6 "Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar. Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him."

Matthew 22:29 "But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God."

Mark 7:13"thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."

Regards Tony

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That IS stated in scripture:

"Unless you believe that I AM HE, you will perish," for one example.

I do not add to God's words.

I'm not mistaken, and understand the scriptures and power of God.

I do not invalidate God's Word by tradition, I'm a converted Jew, for goodness sake.

adrian009 said:

Sometimes I think the best Baha'is are those that aren't Baha'is at all.

If the Baha'i Faith is the changleless Faith of God, Eternal in the past, eternal in the future, then isn't Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism also the Baha'i Faith.

If religion is one, then where does the Baha'i Faith begin and end?

If a Christian manages to successfully implement ten of God's eternal Teachings to their life and the baha'i manages just one, then who is better off. Are we 'superior' because we are Baha'is and they are Christians?

As Baha'is are we not enjoined to overcome all religious prejudice?

The more I think about it, the more I think dispensation refers to an era or a period of time associated with the rise and fall of religions.

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Related to that are the people in any religion that say they believe their particular religion is true but don't live by its standards. And, although I believe the evangelical Christians are, for the most, part correct in their interpretation of their Bible, by believing in that type of Christianity makes all the good people in any religion, or those with no religion, all in the same category with the worst of evil people. I've heard a Christian preacher say that Gandhi, no matter how good of a person he was, is going to hell for not believing in the Christian interpretation of who Jesus is. Same with Muslims and Baha'is, you don't have the "right" gospel. They believe you are believing in a false Christ.

But core beliefs in the different religions are what is supposed to be getting people to follow the spiritual rules and moral codes. Those laws and codes maybe very similar in all religions, but the doctrines and beliefs of every religion can be very, very different. The difficulty for Baha'is is that you have to try and make all religions to have believed or taught virtually the same thing, originally. I don't see that happening.

Since all religions are so different, a good question is why can't the Baha'is accept them as different? It seems like Baha'i core beliefs don't allow it. The religions have to be one... So anything that goes against that Baha'i belief has to be reinterpreted. Things like reincarnation or the resurrection or Satan are made into allegory or additions into the original Scriptures or just plain old misinterpretations.

Also, the Baha'is have to make the founders of each religion one. Baha'i put them into a special category of "manifestation". Baha'is have a definition of what a manifestation is and I don't see how Abraham, Moses, Buddha, or Muhammad fit that category. In so many ways, they seemed like ordinary men. Then Krishna and Jesus go beyond the Baha'i definition of a manifestation and become "God incarnate". With that first group, Baha'i raise them up to the level of manifestation... something higher than a prophet or a person that became enlightened. And, with the other two, Baha'is lower them down.

But, whatever religions have become has a lot to do with the different people in different cultures that have taken a religion and adapted it to their society and culture. And, since society keeps changing, religions keep changing. So all religions are progressing. But are all religions a progression as taught by Baha'is? I think Christianity is the biggest glitch in the whole progression, because they believe Jesus came to save sinners. Those sinners were going to be sent to hell by God. But, because Jesus paid the penalty for their sins, all that people have to do is accept Jesus' sacrifice and they will be saved. The NT, mainly Paul, goes out of his way to say the Law of Moses didn't save people and it couldn't save people. So Christians aren't "under" the Law. The Law saves no one. Faith in Jesus saves the person, then the person tries their best to follow the commands of Jesus.

But what kind of progression is it if with the very next manifestation, Muhammad, people are put back under having to follow laws to get right with God? And, Baha'i have more laws. So how do Baha'is get around all of this? I'm sure you know the evangelical Christian beliefs. How do you reinterpret that "Saved" by grace thing to get Muhammad and The Bab and Baha'u'llah into the progression and to be the "Christs" that Christianity has been waiting for?

CG Didymus said:

Related to that are the people in any religion that say they believe their particular religion is true but don't live by its standards. And, although I believe the evangelical Christians are, for the most, part correct in their interpretation of their Bible, by believing in that type of Christianity makes all the good people in any religion, or those with no religion, all in the same category with the worst of evil people. I've heard a Christian preacher say that Gandhi, no matter how good of a person he was, is going to hell for not believing in the Christian interpretation of who Jesus is. Same with Muslims and Baha'is, you don't have the "right" gospel. They believe you are believing in a false Christ.

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Ok, let’s extrapolate. As you are not a Christian you are essentially saying the bible is unreliable and not worth the paper it’s written on.

CG Didymus said:

But core beliefs in the different religions are what is supposed to be getting people to follow the spiritual rules and moral codes. Those laws and codes maybe very similar in all religions, but the doctrines and beliefs of every religion can be very, very different. The difficulty for Baha'is is that you have to try and make all religions to have believed or taught virtually the same thing, originally. I don't see that happening.

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Let’s turn this around. Critics of the Baha’i, including atheists or “I’m right and your wrong” religions such as Judaism rely on the differences between the religions to support their agenda. They advocate because they are so different they must either be all wrong (atheism) or just one is right (Judaism). Christianity of course takes a similar approach to Judaism as the Baha’is take with Christianity.

Cultural differences that span over a period of thousands of years in diverse geographic locations are conveniently ignored or minimised.

CG Didymus said:

Since all religions are so different, a good question is why can't the Baha'is accept them as different? It seems like Baha'i core beliefs don't allow it. The religions have to be one... So anything that goes against that Baha'i belief has to be reinterpreted. Things like reincarnation or the resurrection or Satan are made into allegory or additions into the original Scriptures or just plain old misinterpretations.

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The next part of the argument is literalism. That the stories told in different religions are all written to be taken literally with no symbolism, allegory or deeper meanings. Therefore they can’t all possibly be true. I doubt if anyone really believes that about religion, not even the Christians. Christians rely heavily on a Baha’i type approach to make their religion fit the Hebrew Bible.

CG Didymus said:

Also, the Baha'is have to make the founders of each religion one. Baha'i put them into a special category of "manifestation". Baha'is have a definition of what a manifestation is and I don't see how Abraham, Moses, Buddha, or Muhammad fit that category. In so many ways, they seemed like ordinary men. Then Krishna and Jesus go beyond the Baha'i definition of a manifestation and become "God incarnate". With that first group, Baha'i raise them up to the level of manifestation... something higher than a prophet or a person that became enlightened. And, with the other two, Baha'is lower them down.

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The next part of the argument is they were all such different people. How could Muhammad and Moses be compared to Jesus? The problem with that approach is it ignores that each produced works each founder claimed were from God, how they lived outstanding lives, and their Teachings have endured far and wide. Those who want to remain divided emphasise differences whereas those who want unity emphasise similarities. That used to be the justification for racism. It’s taken a while to overcome that evil. Plenty of work remains of course. Now religious diversity is used for justification for religious bigotry and fanaticism. It’s up to each of us to what extent we stand up for justice or stand back idly the forces of fanaticism grow stronger. At some point we need to take a stand. At some stage we’re accountable if not to God then our own conscience.

CG Didymus said:

But, whatever religions have become has a lot to do with the different people in different cultures that have taken a religion and adapted it to their society and culture. And, since society keeps changing, religions keep changing. So all religions are progressing. But are all religions a progression as taught by Baha'is? I think Christianity is the biggest glitch in the whole progression, because they believe Jesus came to save sinners. Those sinners were going to be sent to hell by God. But, because Jesus paid the penalty for their sins, all that people have to do is accept Jesus' sacrifice and they will be saved. The NT, mainly Paul, goes out of his way to say the Law of Moses didn't save people and it couldn't save people. So Christians aren't "under" the Law. The Law saves no one. Faith in Jesus saves the person, then the person tries their best to follow the commands of Jesus.

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I think Christianity, Islam and Judaism fit relatively comfortably into a Baha’i paradigm. Obviously if you apply the criteria you advocate above nothing fits and either all religions are wrong or only Christianity. These criteria reflect a lack of understanding about any religion though and simply perpetuate ignorance and stereotypes. The biggest challenge to a Baha’i paradigm is perhaps Buddhism.

CG Didymus said:

But what kind of progression is it if with the very next manifestation, Muhammad, people are put back under having to follow laws to get right with God? And, Baha'i have more laws. So how do Baha'is get around all of this? I'm sure you know the evangelical Christian beliefs. How do you reinterpret that "Saved" by grace thing to get Muhammad and The Bab and Baha'u'llah into the progression and to be the "Christs" that Christianity has been waiting for?

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Sure, set up a straw man with the class room like model of progressive Revelation that the Baha’i writings never mention and tear it down.

If you believe all the Christian doctrines to be true then become a Christian. If all religions seem contradictory and irrational then being undecided or an atheist makes most sense.

Adhere to the outcome of your investigation and do some good in the world.

adrian009 said:

Sometimes I think the best Baha'is are those that aren't Baha'is at all.

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According to Abdu’l-Baha a person can be a Baha’i even if they never heard of the Faith:

adrian009 said:

If the Baha'i Faith is the changleless Faith of God, Eternal in the past, eternal in the future, then isn't Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism also the Baha'i Faith.

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No, they are not the Baha’i Faith, because the Baha’i Faith is comprised of those who follow Baha’u’llah. Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism are other “chapters” in the changeless Faith of God, although they are all part of the same book.


Please note: “the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”

To me, that means Baha’is should not be referring back to the Books of former Dispensations. Rather, those who believe in the Books of former Dispensations should be referring to the Baha’i Book. If they do not want to, that is their choice, but the principle still stands because it was inculcated by Baha’u’llah.

Baha’is should not try to make our Book fit into their Books just to make people happy or to get them to agree with us. As Jesus said, new wine cannot be put in old wine sacs.


I get it. The adherents of older religions do not like the new wine Baha’u’llah brought. But that is just too bad, because that is the wine God has asked humanity to be drinking in this religious dispensation. The old wine has long since exceeded its shelf life. It no longer suits the needs of the times:

adrian009 said:

If religion is one, then where does the Baha'i Faith begin and end?

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The Baha’i Faith began in 1844 with the coming of the Bab and the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah will end when a new Manifestation of God comes to earth. The religion of the Baha’i Faith will not end because it is one chapter in the eternal religion of God.

adrian009 said:

If a Christian manages to successfully implement ten of God's eternal Teachings to their life and the baha'i manages just one, then who is better off. Are we 'superior' because we are Baha'is and they are Christians?

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No, Baha’is are not superior to anyone, not even to nonbelievers.

adrian009 said:

As Baha'is are we not enjoined to overcome all religious prejudice?

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Baha’is are enjoined to overcome every kind of prejudice, including religious prejudice. However, that does not mean we have toagree with people of other religions when we do not agree, because that is dishonest. It also does not mean we have tobelieve in their religions. We have our own religion, they have theirs. The goal is to be able to get along in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship.

adrian009 said:

The more I think about it, the more I think dispensation refers to an era or a period of time associated with the rise and fall of religions.

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Dispensation (period) - Wikipedia

A religious dispensation is a distinctive period in history that forms the framework through which God relates to mankind. God has related to mankind through Baha’u’llah in this period of history, not Jesus or any other Manifestation of God.Speaking as the Voice of God, Baha’u’llah made it perfectly clear what God wants humanity to do in the present age.

adrian009 said:

Ok, let’s extrapolate. As you are not a Christian you are essentially saying the bible is unreliable and not worth the paper it’s written on.



Let’s turn this around. Critics of the Baha’i, including atheists or “I’m right and your wrong” religions such as Judaism rely on the differences between the religions to support their agenda. They advocate because they are so different they must either be all wrong (atheism) or just one is right (Judaism). Christianity of course takes a similar approach to Judaism as the Baha’is take with Christianity.

Cultural differences that span over a period of thousands of years in diverse geographic locations are conveniently ignored or minimised.



The next part of the argument is literalism. That the stories told in different religions are all written to be taken literally with no symbolism, allegory or deeper meanings. Therefore they can’t all possibly be true. I doubt if anyone really believes that about religion, not even the Christians. Christians rely heavily on a Baha’i type approach to make their religion fit the Hebrew Bible.



The next part of the argument is they were all such different people. How could Muhammad and Moses be compared to Jesus? The problem with that approach is it ignores that each produced works each founder claimed were from God, how they lived outstanding lives, and their Teachings have endured far and wide. Those who want to remain divided emphasise differences whereas those who want unity emphasise similarities. That used to be the justification for racism. It’s taken a while to overcome that evil. Plenty of work remains of course. Now religious diversity is used for justification for religious bigotry and fanaticism. It’s up to each of us to what extent we stand up for justice or stand back idly the forces of fanaticism grow stronger. At some point we need to take a stand. At some stage we’re accountable if not to God then our own conscience.



I think Christianity, Islam and Judaism fit relatively comfortably into a Baha’i paradigm. Obviously if you apply the criteria you advocate above nothing fits and either all religions are wrong or only Christianity. These criteria reflect a lack of understanding about any religion though and simply perpetuate ignorance and stereotypes. The biggest challenge to a Baha’i paradigm is perhaps Buddhism.



Sure, set up a straw man with the class room like model of progressive Revelation that the Baha’i writings never mention and tear it down.

If you believe all the Christian doctrines to be true then become a Christian. If all religions seem contradictory and irrational then being undecided or an atheist makes most sense.

Adhere to the outcome of your investigation and do some good in the world.

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To say the Bible isn't worth the paper it is written on and that it's unreliable is, sadly, what is the negative extreme of what Baha'is believe. There is not one thing in the Bible, and especially the NT, that Baha'is need to believe. They, instead, can take the Baha'i symbolic interpretation and erase any belief Christians may hold as truth.

You keep acting as if anybody is claiming the whole Bible must be taken literal. I said that not even Christians take it 100% literal, like when Jesus says to pluck your eyes out if they offend you. Christians don't take that literally at all, even though that is what Jesus said. What I keep saying is that when the gospel writers are telling of the things Jesus said and did, if those things didn't literally happen, then the gospels are a work of fiction. That no, Jesus didn't literally walk on water. That no, he didn't raise the dead and cast out demons. And, he never, no never came back to life. He died and was buried. If that's the truth about Jesus, who would have followed his teachings?

If people knew he was dead and buried and all the miracles were made up and never really happened... but had some mystical "symbolic" meaning, then it's not Jesus they should follow, but the writers for creating such a great work of fiction... for making up a story about a miracle working God/man. But, are people going to follow a religion based on fiction? No, the early believers thought all of this was true, that it really happened, that Jesus, by conquering death, had the power and authority to forgive them of their sins. And he was coming back to reward those that stayed steadfast in believing in him.

Did Moses or Muhammad forgive people of their sins? Did they die as a sacrifice to pay the penalty for sin? You know what Christians believe. You know why they, if correct in their beliefs, are superior to any other religion. But, is it fiction? Is this miracle God/man really what the gospels say he is? To make all religions one, to make Islam and the Baha'i Faith legitimate and from God, that can't be right. So what is the alternative? The Baha'i Faith says "no" Jesus is dead. No, he is not returning. No, he didn't save people from Satan's evil plan and save them from hell, because there is no Satan and no hell. The miracles? All symbolic. The "spiritually" blind saw the light. The "spiritual" lepers were cleansed. The true "resurrection" was when the disciples started living by all the wonderful teachings Jesus had left with them. Do unto others, turn the other cheek, help the poor, love thy neighbor... that's what brought life to the "spiritual" body of Christ.

It is absolutely hilarious that you try and spin things to say that religious diversity leads to prejudice and bigotry. And then say it reflects a "lack" of understanding and perpetuates "ignorance" and "stereotypes"? What Baha'is believe is just as bad. They are saying they are the "only" truth. They are the "only" religion that has the answers for today. Baha'is on this forum have said that all the other religions are dead. They have all succumbed to false beliefs and traditions of men. So don't tell me you believe in the "oneness" of all religions. The only "oneness" is in the Baha'i interpretation of what religions were "originally". What was that "original" message? All we have is what religions say they are... and that is very different than what Baha'is say they should be. So no, all religions must give up their "erroneous" beliefs and traditions and accept the one truth, the new truth, The Baha'i Faith.

I believe there is a manmade element to all the other religions. Maybe even to the point to where some spiritual person had a mystical experience and wrote down what they thought was the truth. I believe those early religions had a lot of mythical things going on. Stories of the gods and stories of good versus evil. But they were all mythical. They had spiritual messages in them, but they weren't real. But, isn't that what Baha'is are saying? That people shouldn't cling literally to their religion because some of the things aren't literally true?

If that's what Baha'i believe then you and I aren't really saying anything different. If the story of Jesus is based on myths and legends, is influenced by some Jewish beliefs and some Pagan beliefs... and the whole thing is put together to sound as if literally true, then yes, people are making things of fiction into something literal. They do have a superstitious belief in things that aren't real. Isn't that what Baha'i believe too? Only problem is, that makes the Bible make-believe. It makes it religious mythology.

And Baha'is can't have that. You need God to have somehow put it into the heads of the writers to fabricate a story that sounded like real historical events but was only "symbolic". Did seas part? Did walls come tumbling down? Did a virgin give birth to a child? Did that child die and come back to life? No, I agree. It's all myth. But, how then did those stories inspire millions. Because they were "symbolically" true? Or did they inspire those people because they believed them (wrongly) that they really happened? Yes, the Bible is worth a lot of paper... and a lot of gold.... symbolic "spiritual" gold. But, only if it is real. Only if it is really the truth from God. And only if it can be trusted as being the truth. If it's not, then what has it been worth?

Religious prejudice and bigotry is a real issue that takes many forms. An obvious example is the shameful history of anti-semitism from both Christians and Muslims. Often religious prejudice becomes intertwined with racism. Other times its simply the prejudice that one religious group holds against another. Like racism, attitudes can be subtle and we may not even be aware of them. None of us are immune from racism and religious bigotry, the Baha'is included.

Our national culture can contribute to prejudice. I don't live in the USA but I wonder to what extent the current political climate affects its citizen's attitudes towards those of a different race or a religion other than Christianity.

CG Didymus said:

To say the Bible isn't worth the paper it is written on and that it's unreliable is, sadly, what is the negative extreme of what Baha'is believe. There is not one thing in the Bible, and especially the NT, that Baha'is need to believe. They, instead, can take the Baha'i symbolic interpretation and erase any belief Christians may hold as truth.

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There is a wide diversity of beliefs amongst those who consider themselves Christian. Historically its Christians themselves that have been the harshest critics of other Christians. It is Christians who have perpetrated the worst violence towards Christians. We need look no further than Europe during the reformation and counter reformation.

Beyond Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith are two religions that genuinely revere both Jesus and the Gospels. That is an undoubted fact and one need only investigate the Holy Quran and the Baha'i writings to verify this truth. Islam has taken a direction of seeing the Gospels as corrupted and not the original Gospel that Jesus brought. The Baha'i Faith sees the Gospels as being authentic and true in its substance, protected by God, and as communicating all that God intended through Christ at that time. We don't take it all literally of course but neither do many Christians.

It is entirely legitimate to believe, or not believe in Satan or even the resurrection. I respect the right for Christians to have their beliefs. However Baha'is have a right to their point of view as well. When one party starts making extreme statements towards another group, denigrating their beliefs then that becomes religious prejudice. That is completely different from simply disagreeing with someone who holds a different perspective.

So when a Christian or someone who isn't a Christian tells me the Baha'i Faith doesn't see the Holy Bible as worth the paper its written on, that's not true and it expresses a disrespect for what the Baha'is are about.

CG Didymus said:

You keep acting as if anybody is claiming the whole Bible must be taken literal. I said that not even Christians take it 100% literal, like when Jesus says to pluck your eyes out if they offend you. Christians don't take that literally at all, even though that is what Jesus said. What I keep saying is that when the gospel writers are telling of the things Jesus said and did, if those things didn't literally happen, then the gospels are a work of fiction. That no, Jesus didn't literally walk on water. That no, he didn't raise the dead and cast out demons. And, he never, no never came back to life. He died and was buried. If that's the truth about Jesus, who would have followed his teachings?

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Many Christians no longer believe some of these stories to be literally true. It is completely reasonable for those Christians and many Baha'is to believe as we do. We don't require permission or approval from the Christian fundamentalists. We are all entitled to our beliefs and the sooner we accept each others differences the better. That is diversity of belief in the positive sense.

CG Didymus said:

If people knew he was dead and buried and all the miracles were made up and never really happened... but had some mystical "symbolic" meaning, then it's not Jesus they should follow, but the writers for creating such a great work of fiction... for making up a story about a miracle working God/man. But, are people going to follow a religion based on fiction? No, the early believers thought all of this was true, that it really happened, that Jesus, by conquering death, had the power and authority to forgive them of their sins. And he was coming back to reward those that stayed steadfast in believing in him.

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That is the Christian fundamentalst perspective. They are entitled to their beliefs as the Baha'is are theirs.

CG Didymus said:

Did Moses or Muhammad forgive people of their sins? Did they die as a sacrifice to pay the penalty for sin? You know what Christians believe. You know why they, if correct in their beliefs, are superior to any other religion. But, is it fiction? Is this miracle God/man really what the gospels say he is? To make all religions one, to make Islam and the Baha'i Faith legitimate and from God, that can't be right. So what is the alternative? The Baha'i Faith says "no" Jesus is dead. No, he is not returning. No, he didn't save people from Satan's evil plan and save them from hell, because there is no Satan and no hell. The miracles? All symbolic. The "spiritually" blind saw the light. The "spiritual" lepers were cleansed. The true "resurrection" was when the disciples started living by all the wonderful teachings Jesus had left with them. Do unto others, turn the other cheek, help the poor, love thy neighbor... that's what brought life to the "spiritual" body of Christ.

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It is God who forgives and is the compassionate. Why do you make an issue of people who don't believe as the born again Christians do? You don't believe it yourself.

Muslims and Jews are entited to their different beliefs about God. They Follow the Teachings of Muhamamd and Moses. That is how they are saved.

CG Didymus said:

It is absolutely hilarious that you try and spin things to say that religious diversity leads to prejudice and bigotry. And then say it reflects a "lack" of understanding and perpetuates "ignorance" and "stereotypes"? What Baha'is believe is just as bad. They are saying they are the "only" truth. They are the "only" religion that has the answers for today. Baha'is on this forum have said that all the other religions are dead. They have all succumbed to false beliefs and traditions of men. So don't tell me you believe in the "oneness" of all religions. The only "oneness" is in the Baha'i interpretation of what religions were "originally". What was that "original" message? All we have is what religions say they are... and that is very different than what Baha'is say they should be. So no, all religions must give up their "erroneous" beliefs and traditions and accept the one truth, the new truth, The Baha'i Faith.

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I'm not telling you what to believe. We are all free to believe as we wish. I answer your questions to explain what the Baha'is believe. That is all.

Religions change as people and communities change. I don't claim to properly understand the origins of Hinduism or even Buddhism. I do rightly or wrongly have some sense of Christianity though. I also believe the Christian dispensation ended with the advent of the Baha'i faith just as the Mosaic dispensation ended with the advent of Jesus.

CG Didymus said:

I believe there is a manmade element to all the other religions. Maybe even to the point to where some spiritual person had a mystical experience and wrote down what they thought was the truth. I believe those early religions had a lot of mythical things going on. Stories of the gods and stories of good versus evil. But they were all mythical. They had spiritual messages in them, but they weren't real. But, isn't that what Baha'is are saying? That people shouldn't cling literally to their religion because some of the things aren't literally true?

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At least you are explaining what you believe here. You are not a Christian. Why continue to use the arguments of Christian apologists? I want to hear what you think. What are the issues for you?

CG Didymus said:

If that's what Baha'i believe then you and I aren't really saying anything different. If the story of Jesus is based on myths and legends, is influenced by some Jewish beliefs and some Pagan beliefs... and the whole thing is put together to sound as if literally true, then yes, people are making things of fiction into something literal. They do have a superstitious belief in things that aren't real. Isn't that what Baha'i believe too? Only problem is, that makes the Bible make-believe. It makes it religious mythology.

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That is fine you believe that, and there are similarities between what you belief and what Baha'is believe. You have to admit there are some important differences though.

CG Didymus said:

And Baha'is can't have that. You need God to have somehow put it into the heads of the writers to fabricate a story that sounded like real historical events but was only "symbolic". Did seas part? Did walls come tumbling down? Did a virgin give birth to a child? Did that child die and come back to life? No, I agree. It's all myth. But, how then did those stories inspire millions. Because they were "symbolically" true? Or did they inspire those people because they believed them (wrongly) that they really happened? Yes, the Bible is worth a lot of paper... and a lot of gold.... symbolic "spiritual" gold. But, only if it is real. Only if it is really the truth from God. And only if it can be trusted as being the truth. If it's not, then what has it been worth?

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The Baha'i narrative makes perfect sense to me. Then again I am a Baha'i and believe Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for this day. I'm comfortable with who I am. Are you comfortable with who you are? You are undecided and choose to be neither a Baha'i, nor a Christian. I accept that. It appears you are struggling at the moment to accept Baha'is for who we are. What's that about?