Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

adrian009 said:

That's a good example of taking one passage in isolation and ignoring other statements. Therefore you have twisted my words and the Baha'i Faiths position to imply it means something it doesn't.

The other side of the coin are statements from Baha'u'llah and Adbu'l-Baha that absolutely support the authenticity of the Bible;

Bahá'u'lláh writes concerning the Books of Christians and the peoples of other Faiths:
"...the words of the verses themselves eloquently testify to the truth that they are of God."
Bahá'u'lláh, The Kitáb-i-Iqan

"You must know the Old and New Testaments as the Word of God"
'Abdu'l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace

"Surely the Bible is the book of God"
'Abdu'l-Bahá, Paris Talks,

"...We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to..."
Bahá'u'lláh, The Kitáb-i-Iqan

"That city is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus the Gospel
Bahá'u'lláh, The Kitáb-i-Iqan

So what does Shoghi Effendi mean when he says not wholly authentic?

The Universal House of Justice is authorised by Abdu'l-Baha to resolve difficult problems.

Let's see what they have to say:

You ask for elucidation of the statement made on behalf of the Guardian in this letter of 11 February 1944, “When ‘Abdu’l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.” Is it not clear that what Shoghi Effendi means here is that we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Moses and Christ in the Old and New Testaments are Their exact words, but that, in view of the general principle enunciated by Bahá’u’lláh in the “Kitáb-i-Iqán” that God’s Revelation is under His care and protection, we can be confident that the essence, or essential elements, of what these two Manifestations of God intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in these two Books.
(Universal House of Justice, 1987 Sept 14, Resurrection of Christ)

So we can not say that the words recorded in the Gospels and Torah are the exact words of Christ and Moses. However God's Revelation is under His care and protection. Therefore we can be confident that what these two Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded.

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adrian009 said:

The Universal House of Justice has established agencies at the World Centre to assist it in analyzing, classifying, and coordinating the Persian, Arabic and English texts and in facilitating the English-language translation work. Such work requires a command of the relevant languages. It also requires a profound understanding of the purpose and the character of Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation as well as the historical circumstances in which it unfolded. To translate even a single verse, one needs to draw on a great deal of knowledge and experience, if the final rendition is to resonate in the hearts and minds of readers and remain faithful to the original. I am in no doubt you don't meet the high qualifications to undertake such translation work and from what I know of Juan Cole, he didn't either.

Bahá’u’lláh's Revelation comprises more than one hundred volumes in the original Persian and Arabic languages. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s written works too are in Persian and Arabic, though a few are in Turkish. We are fortunate that much of the correspondence of the Guardian was penned in English, but a significant percentage was sent to the believers in the East as well. Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation thus far has been translated into nearly 800 different languages. If we are to ensure the high standard of translation befitting of the Manifestation of God for this age it is clearly a monumental enterprise.

Not too long after the first Universal House of Justice was elected they highlighted the problem well.

The matter of translation is a major problem. As you yourself know only too well, to convey exactly the meaning and flavour of a passage from one language to another is often impossible and one can but labour to approach as near as possible to the unattainable perfection. Even our Beloved Guardian, whose skill in this art amounted to genius, characterized his translation of the "Kitáb-i-Iqán" as "one more attempt to introduce to the West, in language however inadequate, this book of unsurpassed pre-eminence among the writings of the Author of the Bahá'í Revelation, and he expressed the hope "that it may assist others in their efforts to approach what must always be regarded as the unattainable goal -- a befitting rendering of Bahá'u'lláh's matchless utterance."

The difficulty of translation increases when two languages express the thoughts and metaphors of widely differing cultures; thus, it is infinitely more difficult for a European to conceive the thought patterns expressed in Arabic or Persian than to understand a passage written in English. Moreover, the Beloved Guardian was not only a translator but the inspired Interpreter of the Holy Writings; thus, where a passage in Persian or Arabic could give rise to two different expressions in English he would know which one to convey. Similarly he would be much better equipped than an average translator to know which metaphor to employ in English to express a Persian metaphor which might be meaningless in literal translation.

Thus, in general, speakers of other European tongues will obtain a more accurate translation by following the Guardian's English translation than by attempting at this stage in Bahá'í history to translate directly from the original.

This does not mean, however, that the translators should not also check their translations with the original texts if they are familiar with Persian or Arabic. There may be many instances where the exact meaning of the English text is unclear to them and this can be made evident by comparison with the original.
(From a letter dated 8 December 1964 written by the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer)

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spirit_of_dawn said:

I was double checking your quotes. The first one is taken out of context and Baha'u'llah states afterward that there are some corruptions in the Bible.

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spirit_of_dawn said:

Quote from Promulgation and Paris talks have also been taken out of context and aren't even Abdu'l-Baha's statements

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spirit_of_dawn said:

A Bahá'í View of the Bible
by Colin Dibdin
published in 75 Years of the Bahá'í Faith in Australasia
Rosebery: Association for Baha'i Studies Australia, 1996
Which can be found at this link:
A Bahá'í View of the Bible

And it conveniently confirms what I had stated:

"The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been."

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spirit_of_dawn said:

In the Islamic belief --unlike in Baha'ism -- God doesn't come down to earth embodied as a human. So when he wants us to pledge obedience to him he sends a representative and asks us to pledge obedience to that person. Hence the verse:

48:10 "Those who pledge obedience to you are, in fact, pledging obedience to God.

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spirit_of_dawn said:

1- To judge a translations quality, you have to know both languages. You claim you rely on Good quality translation while you don't have the necessary means to make such a judgment.

2- Shoghi's translations are riddled with errors, but it's no use arguing with you on that because no matter how many instances I show you, you won't believe nor can you understand.

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spirit_of_dawn said:

What you have written doesn't give you the authority or the right to question the translations that I cite, nor do these statements remotely provide any evidence that the current authorized Baha'i translations are correct, and they are also no excuse for you to practice unindependent investigation of the truth by relying on translations provided by third parties. And Professor Juan Cole is very well capable of translating Arabic texts to English as his academic portfolio clearly shows.

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adrian009 said:

Of course He is;

In regards the Baha'u'llah (Glory of God) in the Bible;

Now it came to pass . . . as I was among the captives by the River Chebar . . . I saw visions of God. . . . This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.
Ezekiel 1:1, Ezekiel 1:28

And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters . . . and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar . . . And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east. So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.
Ezekiel 43:2-6

"The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see..."
Isaiah 40:5

"The excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord ... [when] the ransomed of the Lord [the Jews] shall return."
Isaiah 35

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Dale said:

At no time in Ezekiel's spiritual vision is it speaking of and future prophet from Persia and called himself the Glory of God, there's no scripture in the Bible that says, a man will come and he will be called the Glory of God and he will come from the Persians and start a knew faith.

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adrian009 said:

Your fundamental problem is a lack of knowledge about a religion.




You are mistaken. Baha'u'llah makes no mention of corruptions of the Bible. He is refuting the argument made by Muslims divines who claim the gospels to be corrupted. He is paraphrasing their argument which He then refutes. Here is the paragraph in full.

Were they to be questioned concerning those signs that must needs herald the revelation and rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation, to which We have already referred, none of which have been literally fulfilled, and were it to be said to them: “Wherefore have ye rejected the claims advanced by Christians and the peoples of other faiths and regard them as infidels,” knowing not what answer to give, they will reply: “These Books have been corrupted and are not, and never have been, of God.” Reflect: the words of the verses themselves eloquently testify to the truth that they are of God. A similar verse hath been also revealed in the Qur’án, were ye of them that comprehend. Verily I say, throughout all this period they have utterly failed to comprehend what is meant by corrupting the text.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 81-93

How can I trust your capacity to translate fairly if your English comprehension prevents you from seeing the context of what Baha'u'llah is saying?

This theme of criticism of the Muslim divines continues:


"...We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to..."
Bahá'u'lláh, The Kitáb-i-Iqan



Seriously!?

Furthermore, it is significant and convincing that when Muḥammad proclaimed His work and mission, His first objection to His own followers was, “Why have you not believed on Jesus Christ? Why have you not accepted the Gospel? Why have you not believed in Moses? Why have you not followed the precepts of the Old Testament? Why have you not understood the prophets of Israel? Why have you not believed in the disciples of Christ? The first duty incumbent upon ye, O Arabians, is to accept and believe in these. You must consider Moses as a Prophet. You must accept Jesus Christ as the Word of God. You must know the Old and the New Testaments as the Word of God. You must believe in Jesus Christ as the product of the Holy Spirit.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 197-203

The words are Abdul-Bahá’s as meticulously recorded from one of his talks in America. He is not quoting Muhammad or the Quran but summarising core teachings in regards Christianity. If seen in context it’s a similar criticism to Islam as how it’s erred greviously in its approach to Christianity. It’s entirely consistent with Bahá’u’lláh’s statements in the Kitab-I-Iqan.



The paper you quote from has no more authority than any statement you or I might make on this forum. It is simply the opinion of one person and has no authority.

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adrian009 said:

The Universal House of Justice is the international governing body that has been ordained and authorised by the pen of Baha'u'llah Himself. Its functions and authority have been clearly outlined by 'Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. The Universal House of Justice alone has right to determine what translations meet the high standards required for the needs of the diverse peoples throughout the world who have accepted Baha'u'llah's revelation. It should be self-evident that any other approach would result in confusion and discord.

Obviously you are free to translate Baha'i writings as anyone is. Your translations along with Juan Coles have no authority beyond the personal opinion of any other individual including Baha'is. I have no problem hearing your point of view on the Baha'i Faith as anyone else. However, when statements are made that contradict the clear Teachings of the Baha'i writings, I will find the authorised writings that correct them.

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Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Then you do not know what the Baha'i beleive, as we also beleive this.

Regards Tony

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spirit_of_dawn said:

Dear Tony,

Yes you claim you believe that yet Baha'u'llah doesn't and states in explicit terms that he is god.

Best wishes

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spirit_of_dawn said:

Dear Adrian,

Shoghi Effendi the designated interpreter of the Words of his forefathers clearly states that Baha'is do not believe every word of the Bible is authentic and if someone like Abdu'l-Baha uttered a statement that implied this meaning he had intended something else:

"When ‘Abdu’l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet."(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer and cited on behalf of the Universal House of Justice, March 13, 1986 in a letter to a believer)

As a Baha'i, you can either believe what Shoghi says and admit that the Bible is not authentic, or you can try to refute what he says and we can then call you a non-Baha'i or a covenant breaker.

Best wishes

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spirit_of_dawn said:

The UHJ is illegal without a Guardian and has no legal or religious basis. That's that.

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adrian009 said:

Another difficulty you have is focusing on one a few passages from the Guardian while ignoring those from Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha.

Here's a couple more extracts from Abdu'l-Baha's words for you to ignore.

"The Bible and the Gospels are most honored in the estimation of all Baha'is. One of the spiritual utterances of His Holiness Christ in his Sermon on the Mount is preferable to me to all the writings of the philosophers. It is the religious duty of every Baha'i to read and comprehend the meanings of the Old and New Testament."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Star of the West, Vol. 14, p. 55)

THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God.
Bahá'í Reference Library - ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, Pages 17-18

Perhaps we can agree that Baha'is take a very different approach to the Bible than Muslims who tend to view it as being corrupted and superseded by the Quran. That is why many Muslims struggle on this forum especially when discussing the bible. Baha'is have a very different perspective from Muslims. Perhaps you are projecting your Muslim understanding onto the Baha'i Faith. The Baha'i Faith and Islam are two separate religions.

You can call me a non-Baha'i or a Covenant breaker if you want. It would just demonstrate yet again that you have no idea how the Baha'i Faith operates and how different it is from Islam.

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adrian009 said:

Obviously the Baha'i Faith including the Universal House of Justice has no legitimacy in the eyes of some Muslims who see as an apostate religion. The Universal House of Justice derives its authority from the writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha. The institution of the Guardian is an essential feature of how the Universal House of Justice operates. That is why they always refer to the Guardian's writings as well as those of Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha.

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spirit_of_dawn said:

Shogi was specificaly referring to the statements of Abdu'l-Baha when he said this:

"When ‘Abdu’l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet."(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer and cited on behalf of the Universal House of Justice, March 13, 1986 in a letter to a believer)​

You might as well post a thousand similar quotes from Abdu'l-Baha but they will all fall under the above statement from Shoghi. Meaning the Bible isn't considered wholly authentic by Baha'is.

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spirit_of_dawn said:

I was speaking from a Baha'i perspective not a Muslim one. The current UHJ you believe in is illegal under Baha'i law because there was supposed to be a living guardian permanently heading it:

“the Guardian of the Faith has been made the permanent head of so august a body,” (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Bahā’u’llāh, p. 150)​

The current UHJ is a body without a head and we all know a body without a head is as good as dead.

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Dale said:

The only relevant scripture verses you quoted is Isaiah chapter 40.

But I will answer all of them, with no problem.

This is why we read the context and know the subject of the chapter and proceeding verses.

Ezekiel 1:1, has nothing to do with a future prophet or messenger.

In my thirtieth year, in the fourth month on the fifth day, while I was among the exiles by the Kebar River, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.


Ezekiel 1:28, Still nothing about a future prophet, Ezekiel just sees an Angel of Gods Glory, , so the Angel of God appears in bright power and radiance of Glory and splendor and Ezekiel is thinking of the power and glory of God.

This isn't a future prophet this is an Angel of God visiting Ezekiel and he is going to communicate with him.

Ezekiel 2:1 The Angel speaks to Ezekiel and not a future prophet, but Gods messenger the Angel of the Lord.

He said to me, "Son of man, stand up on your feet and I will speak to you.

Ezekiel chapter 2:2
After he said this, his Spirit took control of me and lifted me to my feet. Then the LORD said:

The Spirit talking to Ezekiel is a prophetic spirit according to the Hebrew and not the power and force or energy of God.

The word Spirit in the Bible has different meanings.

Spirit Lexicon Strong's Hebrew: 7307. ר֫וּחַ (ruach) -- breath, wind, spirit
f. = ancient angel of the presence
h. prophetic spirit:

God is speaking threw the Angel, because God speaks and says, Thus says the Lord Yahweh, so this couldn't be another future prophet Ezekiel is seeing, it's the Angel of Yahweh speaking for God.

Ezekiel 5 5Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her. 6And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them. 7Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye multiplied more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my judgments, neither have done according to the judgments of the nations that are round about you; 8Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, am against thee, and will execute judgments in the midst of thee in the sight of the nations.

Ezekiel 43:2-6 Still nothing about a future prophet, Ezekiel 43 is just the Angel of God taking him to places and in chapter 43 Ezekiel sees Gods glory the Brightness of the Angel of God coming from the east.

1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east: 2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory. 3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face. 4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east. 5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.

Just like this scripture, of Gods glorious Angel.

Revelation 18:1
After this I saw another angel descending from heaven with great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his glory.



6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.

Now we know this is the Angel of God because after he left his Shining Glory state he had taken the form of a man, in Ezekiel's spiritual vision.

Before the Angel came in full Glory Ezekiel chapter 1:28 and then took the form of a Man and was standing by Ezekiel as a man.

At no time in Ezekiel's spiritual vision is it speaking of and future prophet from Persia and called himself the Glory of God, there's no scripture in the Bible that says, a man will come and he will be called the Glory of God and he will come from the Persians and start a knew faith.

You have misunderstood Ezekiel and his vision and is just grabbing on a description of an Angel of God coming in full Glory and power shining bright and speaking to Ezekiel in his spiritual vision.

Next is Isaiah. Insha Allah if God wills.

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adrian009 said:

Of course He is;

In regards the Baha'u'llah (Glory of God) in the Bible;

Now it came to pass . . . as I was among the captives by the River Chebar . . . I saw visions of God. . . . This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.
Ezekiel 1:1, Ezekiel 1:28

And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters . . . and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar . . . And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east. So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.
Ezekiel 43:2-6

"The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see..."
Isaiah 40:5

"The excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord ... [when] the ransomed of the Lord [the Jews] shall return."
Isaiah 35

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