Regarding the religious concept of forgiveness

I just had some random thoughts about the general concept of forgiveness as it relates to religion and even in some secular matters.

Oftentimes, I hear religious people talk about how God forgives sins of those who ask for forgiveness and/or atone for their sins. Sometimes it might even involve some form of penance. I've also heard that there is an expectation that we humans should also forgive others who sin or trespass against us, although this may or may not involve any form of atonement or even anyone actually asking for forgiveness.

If someone commits a wrong against you, does religion still require you to forgive them, even if they don't ask for forgiveness or make any attempt at atonement? If someone does ask for forgiveness, is forgiveness required? Would it be a sin to not forgive someone who asks for forgiveness? (I've heard some people say things like "May God forgive you, because I can't.")

If someone commits a sin (or a crime), is it enough to say "I'm sorry I did it and I promise never to do it again"? If it's not enough, how does one decide what would be enough penance (or sentence) to properly atone for the sin (or crime)?

I think John Wayne once said "Never apologize, it's a sign of weakness," while others might argue that forgiveness can also be seen as weakness.

What are your thoughts on the subject?

I can forgive fairly easily. I just do not forget.

This old adage is fitting:

Fool me once, shame on you,
Fool me twice, shame on me.

God forgives I don’t. A flaw I need to work on surely. An honest mistake is fine but if someone has the intent to hurt me I don’t believe in forgiveness purely because you KNEW what your intent was.

On my behalf of my sins in the words of Tony Montana

“I never did anything to anyone that didn’t have it coming.”

For example (an extreme one) if I murdered your family and made you watch and urinated on their dead bodies would you forgive me?

Epic Beard Man said:

For example (an extreme one) if I murdered your family and made you watch and urinated on their dead bodies would you forgive me?

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In theory, you would no longer be present, to forgive. Problem solved.

Obviously, there will always be situations that will be exceptions to the rule.

Stevicus said:

I just had some random thoughts about the general concept of forgiveness as it relates to religion and even in some secular matters.

Oftentimes, I hear religious people talk about how God forgives sins of those who ask for forgiveness and/or atone for their sins. Sometimes it might even involve some form of penance. I've also heard that there is an expectation that we humans should also forgive others who sin or trespass against us, although this may or may not involve any form of atonement or even anyone actually asking for forgiveness.

If someone commits a wrong against you, does religion still require you to forgive them, even if they don't ask for forgiveness or make any attempt at atonement? If someone does ask for forgiveness, is forgiveness required? Would it be a sin to not forgive someone who asks for forgiveness? (I've heard some people say things like "May God forgive you, because I can't.")

If someone commits a sin (or a crime), is it enough to say "I'm sorry I did it and I promise never to do it again"? If it's not enough, how does one decide what would be enough penance (or sentence) to properly atone for the sin (or crime)?

I think John Wayne once said "Never apologize, it's a sign of weakness," while others might argue that forgiveness can also be seen as weakness.

What are your thoughts on the subject?

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I was listening to a Dharma Talk yesterday while out the house (and read something similar) that talked about generosity. We give generosity despite if someone gives it back. The purpose is the act of giving without expecting anything in return. That act influences what we experience in the future and consequently each lifetime.

Its the same with forgiving others for their "wrong doings".

If someone commits a wrong against you, does religion still require you to forgive them, even if they don't ask for forgiveness or make any attempt at atonement?

If someone does ask for forgiveness, is forgiveness required? Would it be a sin to not forgive someone who asks for forgiveness? (I've heard some people say things like "May God forgive you, because I can't.")

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It is still appropriate (I wouldnt say required since we forgive because we want to not because we are told to) forgive despite other peoples lack of giving it to you. There is no strings attached to generosity such as forgiveness. That act of forgiveness sets you free. Its hard because you may expect something in return; but, ideally, thats not the point.

How does one decide to do penance?

I feel its a personal feeling that pulls one to penance. A reconciliation with yourself and the act of forgiveness you have given. Its not necessary but many people believe it is for the sake of spiritual sanity.

Christianity is probably similar. The huge difference is we are not required to show generosity. We do so because we want to. In christianity, you do so because you are required. Both from the heart but the motive is different. Penance isnt really a choice but a reconciliation with god.

As I see it, forgiveness has very little to do with benefitting the person I forgive. I don't forgive to benefit them so much as I forgive to benefit myself. To paraphrase the Buddha, carrying around hatred, anger, or a grudge against someone is like carrying hot coals in your hands -- it burns you much more than it burns them. I forgive to get over -- and beyond -- the offense.

I do not forgive, however, if I have good reason to believe the offense will be repeated. I save my forgiveness for when the person who has committed the offense is either no longer inclined to repeat their offense, or has been neutralized by me, and so cannot repeat their offense.

Stevicus said:

Oftentimes, I hear religious people talk about how God forgives sins of those who ask for forgiveness and/or atone for their sins.

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I've seen this used as an excuse for poor behaviour. "God forgave me already so I can repeat the performance, fully knowing he'll forgive me again." I call nonsense.

On the other count, yes, I try very hard to forgive people who have, in their ignorance, done stupid stuff to me or to others. But on top of that, I try to understand as well. It can be a learning opportunity.

Stevicus said:

If someone commits a wrong against you, does religion still require you to forgive them, even if they don't ask for forgiveness or make any attempt at atonement?

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I don't think that the Xian religion "requires" you to forgive someone who wrongs you; it's more of a "suggested practice" because YOU will feel better about it than if you carry around a bunch of resentment against everyone who's ever wronged you for the rest of your life.

That said, there is some suggestion that it is more difficult for one to be forgiven for sin themselves (by God) if they are unable to forgive those who have sinned against them. I think that's because the whole purpose of Xianity is to love God and love others (the whole of the Law is contained in these two precepts), while sin is anything that creates distance between oneself and God, or between two people, when one man "sins" against another.

So if you go around nurturing separations between yourself and others, you are violating one of the major precepts of Xianity, and such violations nurture separation between yourself and God as well. So there are probably some things that can create an irrevocable separation between oneself and another ("unforgivable sins," so to speak), but I think in general we are encouraged to reduce the separation between ourselves and others to facilitate a reduction in the separation between ourselves and God.

You are more likely to be able to reflect God's nature of love if you deny your own nature of selfishness to be less resentful about being wronged yourself.

My religion has nothing to say about forgiveness for, like all primal religions, it considers human inter-relations a human concern.

From the point of view of a naturalistic ethics, it's a matter of balance. On the one hand, if everyone insisted on retribution for every minor offence, society would become a jungle. On the other, why should I forgive a real criminal of whom I was the victim? Will my pardon improve them, or make me happier?

ahhh...the secular versus the personal, the secular doesn't mean much, does it ?
How does one know the difference between heavenly forgiveness and penance ?
Interrogational forgiveness amongst fellow humankind is personal and sensed.
with or without penance. Again...no retribution needed. Return same with same.
But...forgiveness from the gods or a priest or reverend, how would one know ?
It's like praying to Jesus' mother, one can't know the results of that either.
Round and around we go, but, secular doesn't really get it ! Personal is best.

Sunstone said:

As I see it, forgiveness has very little to do with benefitting the person I forgive. I don't forgive to benefit them so much as I forgive to benefit myself. To paraphrase the Buddha, carrying around hatred, anger, or a grudge against someone is like carrying hot coals in your hands -- it burns you much more than it burns them. I forgive to get over -- and beyond -- the offense.

I do not forgive, however, if I have good reason to believe the offense will be repeated. I save my forgiveness for when the person who has committed the offense is either no longer inclined to repeat their offense, or has been neutralized by me, and so cannot repeat their offense.

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I feel the same way as your first paragraph stated - "carrying hot coals" does hurt me.

But when it comes to repeat offenders, I would like to not carry hatred and anger as well. I'm far from being able to do that as anyone who reads my political rants can see for themselves. But that is my goal.

This does not mean that I want to allow someone to get away with misdeeds, but that I would like my motivation to be the same as the story of Ali shows. There are multiple versions of that story. Here's one: Sheath Your Sword: The Man Who Spat on Saint Ali

In Rumi’s telling, that state is represented by the saintly Imam Ali, a chivalrous knight who met a mighty warrior, a mountain of man, in a duel. The two engaged in traditional wrestling, until Ali picked up the mountainous warrior, threw him to the ground, and was ready to vanquish him.

The pagan warrior, flustered and humiliated at having been defeated, spat on Ali’s face. Ali calmly got up from the defeated warrior’s chest, put his sword back in his sheath, and walked away.

The pagan warrior, puzzled, inquired from Ali why he had not finished him. Ali explains that everything he had done up until that point had been for the sake of God. When the warrior spat on his face, Ali got angry. If he were to kill the warrior, it would not be for the sake of God, but as a response to his own anger.

Stevicus said:

...
What are your thoughts on the subject?

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Jesus said:


Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone; so that your Father, who is in heaven, may also forgive you your transgressions.
Mark 11:25


Don't judge, And you won't be judged. Don't condemn, And you won't be condemned. Set free, And you will be set free.
Luke 6:37

Stevicus said:

I just had some random thoughts about the general concept of forgiveness as it relates to religion and even in some secular matters.

Oftentimes, I hear religious people talk about how God forgives sins of those who ask for forgiveness and/or atone for their sins. Sometimes it might even involve some form of penance. I've also heard that there is an expectation that we humans should also forgive others who sin or trespass against us, although this may or may not involve any form of atonement or even anyone actually asking for forgiveness.

If someone commits a wrong against you, does religion still require you to forgive them, even if they don't ask for forgiveness or make any attempt at atonement? If someone does ask for forgiveness, is forgiveness required? Would it be a sin to not forgive someone who asks for forgiveness? (I've heard some people say things like "May God forgive you, because I can't.")

If someone commits a sin (or a crime), is it enough to say "I'm sorry I did it and I promise never to do it again"? If it's not enough, how does one decide what would be enough penance (or sentence) to properly atone for the sin (or crime)?

I think John Wayne once said "Never apologize, it's a sign of weakness," while others might argue that forgiveness can also be seen as weakness.

What are your thoughts on the subject?

Click to expand...

There is someone I (used to) know who severely wronged me. Because of this I hate him. And I will never forgive him, unless he was to really suffer for it first – which I don’t believe he ever will. He’s one of those abusive and entitled people who have no conscience.

However, I recognise that the forgiveness of sin is a sign of good character – so my character obviously isn’t all that good!

But I have always recognised that I’m a sinner, even during my Messiah Complex days.

Also, I’ll admit it, I’ve wronged people in the past but genuinely feel bad about it, however I don’t think I have the right to expect forgiveness. And I certainly don't believe anyone or any being could forgive me - only those who I wronged.

Wouldnt forgiving someone be obsolete if you only do it when the other deserves it?

I know we can't control another person's actions so why take their as a consideration to our choice to forgive?

In other words, do people need to earn our forgiveness?

If you don't know why forgiveness of others is a prerequisite to your own, you're not sufficiently compelled to do so, are you?

Free will is an illusion. If you don't understand this, you won't really understand why forgiveness exists.

Sunstone said:

I forgive to get over -- and beyond -- the offense.

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I have no trouble getting over offenses without forgiving.

I'm not sure what is even being asked of me. Am I being asked to forget that a certain person behaved a certain way? Am I supposed to not mind it if I do? Am I expected to behave as if the offense never occurred? Am I expected to allow these people to continue to be a part of my life when I really don't want them in it any more?

If so, I can rarely find any use for any of that, and so usually do none of it - unless I have an incentive to maintain a good relationship with the offender. If not, cut bait and move on. Forgiveness is not part of the process.

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Consider this. A few years ago, I was part of a group of people that met regularly over a few years on Saturday afternoons for a backyard barbecue. One ember of the group secretly began slandering me behind my back to others, accusing me of actual crimes. I didn't find out about it for months.

When I did, I eventually cut them all loose from my life - all of them, including the ones who sat by listening, believed what they heard without coming to me or asking me about it. Ultimately, the truth came out, and the truth of my detractor came out, resulting in his ostracism from the group and assorted apologies from the others.

No need. I have no use for people like that in my life, and so made the necessary corrections. Those people showed me an unacceptable level of disloyalty. I have better friends now - people that don't behave like that, people that would at least come to me upon hearing seemingly unbelievable slanders, people that would alert me to what was happening, even if they believed it, and even if it were true.

But forgiveness? Forget who and what they are? Give them another chance to betray me? No thanks. And I harbor no active rage, just contempt, which is not uncomfortable or destructive.