Earthling
David Henson
Sin equals death. The wages of sin are death. Once we've died our sins are forgiven, then we can be resurrected to everlasting life.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Okay. I got my physical bible out
- Thread starter Unveiled Artist
- Start date
Sin equals death. The wages of sin are death. Once we've died our sins are forgiven, then we can be resurrected to everlasting life.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
The divinity of Jesus is what is considered eternal. The princple of god is not the flesh that was the man called Jesus. God is in us too, but when we die, God doesn't die.
In other words, no trinity?
Huh? Metaphysics talk. I had to pick this a part.
1. What has to die is the illusion that causes separation and suffering, which, is the "eye of the flesh". The Spirit saves by virtue of the fact it is Spirit.
The spirit saves by being a spirit. The illusion of death causes separation and suffering. Eye of the flesh???
In other words?
2. Flesh has to die, that is the seeing with the eye of mind alone.
In other words, sight is whent he flesh dies?
God is the spirit youre talking about?
How is the literal flesh not as deep than the metaphoric concept of the resurrection?
Death is separation from self?
I saw that verse when I came from work one day. A homeless person had it on a signn.Remembered it ever since.
I have been crucified in christ. The life I live is no longer my own, but christ who lives in me. Insofar, I live not for myself but for the son of god.
Meaning he sacrificed his ego to live for christ. Anything "deeper" sounds like making it message complicated.
I dont see the connection
Earthling
David Henson
What do you think of the concept of eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, soul (life) for soul. Read Deuteronomy 21:1-9.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Earthling
David Henson
Sin = death. Adam sinned, bringing us all death. When we die the wages of sin are paid in full. Jesus sacrifice was blood. Life, which is the soul, for life. Adam was perfect, without sin, and then he sinned. So the equal sacrifice would be of a sinless perfect man's blood. Jesus paid the ransom for which we are captive, until our death, and so gives us everlasting life.
There was a crime committed, and therefore a need for justice. Jesus paid the fine that brings us out of death into everlasting life. Read the scriptures from Deuteronomy I gave you.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Since jesus is sinless (right?) how did he sacrifice himself when he does not die; has no sin?
The rest I already know.
Earthling
David Henson
Jesus did die. The blood that ran through his veins was spilled to pay the sacrifice. That he had no sin is what made his blood worthy of the sacrifice.
You are having trouble with the fact that in spirit form Jesus existed in heaven prior to and after the sacrifice? This has no bearing on the matter. The price wasn't that he would suffer and then be no more, the price was his perfect sinless blood.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Well being tortured to death is a sacrifice in my opinion; even if you do rise from the dead. Secondly, if you read the scriptures it's easy to see Jesus wanted to go on living on earth. So He actually cut short His stay on earth and the ministry He would have accomplished.
Thirdly, He gave up a normal life. No wife. He turned down being made a King. He said He could have called on many angels to rescue Him from the Romans but did not do it. So He certainly made sacrifices.
Exactly. Good question. Jesus is the Lamb of God. His blood makes atonement for sins. That's what it's really all about.
No, but notice that God never asks anyone in history to give up more than what Jesus gave up. Anyone gives their life up; if you're a martyr for God; then you'll be resurrected like Jesus was. Jesus is the just the first resurrection. But certainly not the last. Because it's important to understand that everyone else is only resurrected through Jesus. That's why He had to come first.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
he died. It hurt. A lot. there are, indeed, other, more painful deaths, but crucifixion is supposed to be right up there, and combined with the torture He experienced before hand....well....
As well, he DID ask His Father why He had forsaken Him....so he was not only crucified, He had to face the whole thing without the support of His Father.
Consider also that He was, indeed, mortal. He wasn't born, as a mortal, knowing all things...He had to learn as He grew. He did not KNOW, then, that His death wasn't going to be final. He had great faith...but His Father left Him alone to suffer, and die....as all mortals are going to die.
A sacrifice is a sacrifice, even if one survives the experience. It's the intent that counts; the reason. When Baal was worshiped, way back when, by throwing infants into the burning hands of the idol....if the baby was rescued and lived, did that mean that the sacrifice was not intended?
Or that it didn't actually happen?
Not to mention that Jesus COULD have, according to the narrative, avoided the whole thing. He willingly allowed himself to be tortured and put to death, and that is a sacrifice. According to the narrative, the whole thing was His choice, from His birth as a mortal to His death as one. So He was resurrected. Good.
So, again according to the narrative, will we all be, and Jesus is the reason we will.
Sounds like a sacrifice to me. If He could have avoided all of it...the pain, the death...and He willingly went through it, that counts.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Im using god to refer to creator/deity
Do you believe he is fully human and not god?
How I understand it is jesus has god's spirit. So, when his flesh dies, his spirit sits with his father (or joins with his father, however interpreted).
If he had his own spirit like the rest of us, and flesh is irrelevant in heaven, Id assume for it to be a real sacrifice, the creator would need to die himself.
Ive never understood the literal definition of salvation. I understand the concept and how you explain it in metaphors and idioms, but beyond that, youd have to explain it in relation to your or a experience.
-
The poetic language are common christian cliches. Its easy to overlook them because they are repeated often. If there is a way to explain it in laymans terms, it would be easier to understand what you mean without idioms and metaphors.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
That makes sense. Im thinking death is the sacrifice. Anyone can give their life to suffer (many do) regardless the intensity. When someone gives their life for a cause, that is completely different. Humans are used to suffering but not many are of death. Psychologically and physiologically speaking.
That I dont understand. By concept, yes. Literal or laymans terms, no. Youd have to compare it to a present, real world experience.
What does it mean to be the First?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Im thinking the highest sacrifice is one's death not one's suffering and tortue. Anyone can be tortued and experience what jesus and his peers had on their crosses. But not all people are psychologically and psyiologically ready for death.
True. Some sacrifices mean more to one person than it does others.
I know this is a different topic, but how (in the world) does this help your spiritual wellbeing? If I read people throwing infants off to the burning hands of the idol whether metaphoric or literal Id be exnaying out the church's back door.
True. Some sacrifices mean more to one person than it does others.
I know this is a different topic, but how (in the world) does this help your spiritual wellbeing? If I read people throwing infants off to the burning hands of the idol whether metaphoric or literal Id be exnaying out the church's back door.
Earthling
David Henson
I don't think I was. I try to avoid religious jargon.
Salvation is simple. It means save from. If I pulled you off a busy highway just before a bus hit you. Salvation. Deity means god or godlike. Venerated. Mighty. A man can be a god. Moses, the Judges of Israel were called gods in the Bible. As was Jesus.
Jesus saves us from death. We all have God's spirit. The trinity is a false doctrine, it comes from Greek philosophy . . . well, actually it comes from ancient Babylon, long before Greek philosophy, but it was introduced into apostate Christian teachings through Plato, a Greek philosopher.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Is it you, or God who decides when a sacrifice is acceptable ?
Christs entire life was a sacrifice, not just his death.
He sacrificed by taking on a restricting human body with itś weaknesses and dependencies. He sacrificed by having to be a child, when he was the creator of all their is.
He sacrificed by living in poverty when he was richer than any human could know.
He sacrificed by being surrounded by sinful humans, when he was sinless.
He sacrificed by experiencing hideous pain and shame when not one person was worthy of His sacrifice.
He sacrificed by being a being of love, who was violently hated
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Thank you!
Jesus died by torture. This was thousands of years ago. When you are saved by a bus you are saved at that present moment. However, if you say you are saved by a bus today but that bus only existed hundreds of years ago, that wouldnt make sense.
Even if the bus was in Loundon and you were in China, you still wont be saved by the us. You can be saved by concept, yes. Develop a spiritual life and faith that you are saved by the bus. But at the end, it didnt save you.
Id see jesus in the same light. Since he isnt god, that makes the question more confusing. One. He/bus cant save you in this present moment without your interaction and faith that it is true, and two since he cant save you at present, his tortue may mean some something to you, but the actual salvation by tortue maks no sense than the bus driver purposely swerving to prevent your death without you being present.
Kinda see the complication?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I assume the only way he can save you is if you have faith his sacrifice that long ago applies to you today?
Is it your faith that makes literal the sacrifice or does the sacrifice stand on its own (jesus saves others) despite your belief?
If the latter, how?
Riders
Well-Known Member
I'm tired of you Christian guys bragging on the torture beating of Jesus and claim it as unique and Jesus the only one who allowed himself to be whipped to death.There were hundreds of Messiahs in the Messiah movement who died and was sacruficed the same way Jesus was who died for the sins of others.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
we were talking about human sacrifice here. Jesus' sacrifice was indeed a 'human sacrifice,' though He allowed it for Himself.
there is, of course, a selection of critics who wouldn't call His sacrifice a sacrifice unless He utterly ceased to exist....and even then it wouldn't have been enough.
Riders
Well-Known Member
Not only that but the bible has been thought to be a scam because it was written so long ago that its been copied from copies and we cannot even trust it to be the real original copy.
Actually, the Logos is very much part of the Trinity. "In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God".
"The" Spirit, or just Spirit with a capital S, saves us in that within this is the true Self. Not the illusion of the separate "I" as the ultimate truth and reality of who we are. Knowledge of Self, or Spirit, is what "saves" us from the suffering generated by a sense of separation from our Source. We are "saved" from the game of being other to who and what we really are.
Sight is when the veil of illusion is lifted. You see something every day, then one day you look and see what was there the whole time, but you couldn't see, for whatever reason blocked that from you. To see the world through the filter that we are separated "in here" with the world "out there" blocks sight. We we die to that illusion, the "eye of the flesh," alone, that we see there is a whole reality that is really real, and what we believed was real before was an illusion.
God is Spirit. Spirit is God. Not "a" or "the" spirit as if it were a turtle, or a racoon, or a goldfish or something. Spirit is the Ocean within which all that exists is inseparable from . It's not separate from them, like some object outside you own self. The Ocean is within, as well as without. No boundaries.
I don't understand what you're asking here.
Yes, in that who we think we are, who we attach our sense of self-identity to creates an attachment that keeps us from letting go of all that to see Reality beyond that veil. When we let that go, when we "die to the ego", that is experienced very much, as facing one's own physical death, if not to a far greater degree.
Perhaps he was enlightened. Perhaps he was just holding a sign with a religious slogan on it. But while what that verse says may sound complicated, that's only to the mind that makes it that way. Not to the mind that has realized its meaning. Then it is simplicity itself, not fancy metaphysics, or such.
You asked if salvation is of the Spirit, why have a body. I answered that you might realize the joy of being a fully awakened human being. That's why. A great way to put this would be to frame it this way. "We are not humans on a spiritual journey. Rather we are Spirit on a human journey." That explains "why" right there. To be fully Human. The Divine Human.