Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but the only problem with that is, The New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God. That all will see the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God.
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Does the Bible mention Islam?
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
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- baha'i christianity islam judaism
Yeah, but the only problem with that is, The New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God. That all will see the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God.
As you say the Christians believe the Holy Spirit in Acts of the Apostles 2:1-4 to be the same Holy Spirit Christ talks about in the gospel of John.
The Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples at Pentecost but that is a separate event from the Comforter being sent later. They were empowered to go out and proclaim the gospel Jesus had taught them. They weren't being told something new that they couldn't bear to hear when Jesus was still alive. What makes more sense in reference to the Comforter is a new Revelation from God according to the more advanced capacity of people in the future to receive that message. The Gospel of Jesus was not suited to the capacity of the Hebrew people at the time of Moses. The revelation of God through Moses is what the Hebrew people needed 3 1/2 thousand years ago.
Lets look at those verses in the Gospel of John more closely .
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
So if it was 'all truth' they could not near to hear, why were not ready for 'all truth' at that time? That description best fits a future Messiah or Christ who reveals 'truths' that the disciples of Christ were not ready for at that time. Of course 'all truth' can't literally be all truth so meant relative to what Christ taught.
Jesus was “a Comforter” because Jesus brought the Holy Spirit. Muhammad is another Comforter and also had the Spirit of truth.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
It is the Comforter who fulfils these verses in John, not the Holy spirit at Pentecost spoken in Acts.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
The Apostle John was a prophet of God. He was a prophet of God before Pentecost as well as afterwards. We know this because Jesus said he was like the prophet Elijah. (Matthew 17:11, Luke 1:17, Malachi 4:5). In that sense John the Baptist was like a prophet of God in the Hebrew Bible. This is unrelated to the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost in Acts of the Apostles 2.
Paul is certainly a good example of one who was enabled by the Holy Spirit. Although Paul converted some years after Pentecost it is reasonable to attribute His experiences to the Holy Spirit that clearly manifested at Pentecost. However, Paul provided interpretation of the Teachings of Jesus, so didn't really teach anything new that the disciples couldn't cope with at the time Jesus was alive. He simply reframed the Message of Jesus for both the Gentiles and Jews.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
What is the Baha'i explanation of this verse implying that it is Jesus that will come back?
"...this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven"
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Who do you think Jesus was speaking to when he spoke that in John 16:13-14, ( howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you"
Who was Jesus speaking to?
The Olivet discourse where Jesus speaks of end times in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 is a clever juxtaposition of two separate but interrelated events. First there is the destruction of the Jewish temple and Jerusalem. This is accompanied by intense suffering for the Jewish people as they are exiled, taken as slaves and generally treated badly. There is mention also of trials and tribulations for the Christians too. The other event is when Jesus returns, the signs accompanying His advent, and associated trials and tribulations.
Its important to realise the trials and tribulations for the Jewish people and Christians came after Christ's ministry not before. An analogous event is the great flood during the times of Noah the Jesus alludes to (Matthew 24:37-39). First Noah warned the people. They did not heed His call and missed the opportunity to enter the Ark of salvation. In like manner Jesus issued a warning to His disciples about the impending destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem (Matthew 24:1-2, Matthew 24:15) that happened 70 AD. This event was preceded by the Roman army pulling back for a short period allowing the Christians to flee as Jesus had warned.
The tribulation that resulted from the kings and rulers failing to heed Baha'u'llah's warning was Armageddon, or WWI/WWII and beyond. Similar tribulations and trials occurred during the Islamic Dispensation.
This refers to the return of Christ or the Messiah. An analogous example of a returned prophet concerns John the Baptist who returned as the spirit of Elijah.
John the Baptist was the return of the spirit of Elijah whose advent was prophesised to herald the coming of the Messiah or Christ.
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 11:11-15
Matthew 17:11-12
Isaiah 40:3
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord
Malachi 4:5, Malachi 3:1
The prophet Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind
2 Kings 2:1-11
It was the spirit of Elijah, not Elijah physically
Luke 1:17
John the Baptist specifically denied being Elijah (meaning physically or reincarnated)
John 1:19-23
This all has important implications for the manner in which Christ returns...
How else do you think anything associated with God does happen?
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."
If this is not God given, then what Holy sites in the Promised Land and on Mount Carmel are? Who but God makes that choice?
Regards Tony
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Had you notice not all of the Jewish temple building was destroyed.
Jesus did say, that not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.
But yet the temple building west wall is still standing. Which the Jews calls the wailing wall.
Have any idea when that wall shall be thrown down.
Matthew 24:1-2--"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down"
But yet the west wall of the temple building is still standing, have any idea when that wall shall be thrown down.
Jesus promised that he would return with a new name, and he associated that name with the “city of God,” the “new Jerusalem.”
This city is also associated with the name of Baha'u'llah, the prophet and founder of the Baha'i Faith. The name Baha’u’llah literally means “the glory of God.” This passage from the Baha’i teachings explains the symbolism of the holy city:
… what the Sacred Scriptures most often mean by the Holy City or divine Jerusalem is the religion of God, which has at times been likened to a bride, or called “Jerusalem”, or depicted as the new heaven and the new earth…
Clearly, the New Jerusalem which descends from heaven is not a city of stone and lime, of brick and mortar, but is rather the religion of God which descends from heaven and is described as new. For it is obvious that the Jerusalem which is built of stone and mortar does not descend from heaven and is not renewed, but that what is renewed is the religion of God.
Abdu'l-Baha
Jesus promised in Revelation 3:12:
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Jesus gives us the sign of his new name in the same verse. He says that it will be the name of “the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven …”
Later, in Revelation 21:10 in the only other verse that refers to a New Jerusalem descending out of heaven. God shows John that great city, and discloses its sacred name:
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God.
“Having the glory of God,” refers directly to Baha’u’llah.
Then Revelation 21:23 says that this “city” does not need the light of the sun or the moon, “for the glory of God illuminated it.” That verse says the light of “the glory of God” is the same as the light of Christ: “The Lamb is its light.”
In the early Arabic translations of the Bible, the phrase “the glory of God” in Revelation 21:10 was rendered as “Baha’u’llah.”
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Those holy sites are not that holy, seeing the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven from God.
If to what you say (If this is not God given, then what Holy sites in the Promised Land and on Mount Carmel are)
If those sites are that holy, then why is God replacing them, with the New Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from God.
The prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD. I think you are taking the words of Jesus too literally.
Adrian has explained this above and it is the New Jerusalem, a spiritual journey that came down from God that I go on pilgmage for in two weeks. The New Covenant, the new Laws, the New day of God.
All Nations flowing up the Mountain of the Lord, is what I will witness.
Regards Tony
Its a little like every eye will see the return of Christ when he comes .
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Revelation 1:7
The only problem is those same verses applied to Jesus.
As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Luke 3:4-6
So once again, we need to be careful not to take scripture too literally especially the prophetic verses.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Jesus never said anything about him coming with a new name.
Where are you getting all this stuff at.
The Greek translation for ( glory of God)
dignity, glory, honour, praise, worship.
But nothing about as you say.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Now isn't that amazing, if you do not take the words of Jesus literally, that can and will lead a person to be deceived.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Good luck on that one, seeing the New Jerusalem has not descended out of heaven from God Yet.
When Christ Jesus returns, then the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God and not until Christ Jesus returns.
His disciples of course. The last half of the gospel of John is set during the last week Of Christ's life. We know from the synoptic Gospels the Olivet discourse was during this time. Yet this discourse is not present in John's gospel. However the messianic theme of this time is certainly present as these verses about the comforter clarify.
The problem with many Christians, is they have become so accustomed to seeing the Bible in one set way, that it becomes almost impossible to see it from another angle. This condition of fixed and false expectation is exactly why Jesus was rejected by His own people. Its also why Christians are unable to see the true nature of Baha'u'llah or Muhammad.
Jesus speaks of this condition when He refers to the obscuring clouds of man made tradition and doctrines that prevent the Returned Christ being recognised. (Matthew 24:30). however the Messiah makes the crooked straight (Luke 3:5).
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Ok, so explain exactly how it will be possible for every eye to see Jesus at his return.
Yeah and that's what Satan told Eve, not to take God's word literally. And look the mess that caused
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Are you absolutely sure about this. That Jesus was only talking to the disciples.
As you said ( Its also why Christians are unable to see the true nature of Baha'u'llah or Muhammad)
That's all because they are false Prophet's.
Why would I want to consider them in any other way but false Prophets.
That is up to you how you see them. I'm just answering your questions, that's all. If you are not interested in what I have to say then I'll desist.
During the advent of Christ it was the responsibility of everyone to recognise Jesus was the Messiah and to follow Him. It was also a duty not to follow false prophets. If Muhammad and Baha'u'llah are false prophets then Muslims and Baha'is are deprived of the Blessing of God. If they are from God then it is the Baha'is who are empowered by the Holy Spirit. As for those who turn away from the prophets of God, God is Self-Sufficient and above the need of any of His creatures.