If there is the devil, why did God create him?

Genna · Sep 21, 2006

wanderer085 said:
"God whose knowledge is unfathomable has the capacity to reveal himself to humans."

Then why hasn't it?

mmmmm....maybe your just not looking! :shout

jazzalta · Sep 22, 2006

Evandr2 said:
The Lord never said that they would drop dead as to the body on the spot but He did imply that they would become subject to the death of the body. In Adams case it took 930 years but it did happen.

So you don't take the Bible literally. That's good because now you don't have to explain Genesis 3:9 where the all knowing and omniscient God supposedly "lost sight" of Adam.

Tiberius · Sep 22, 2006

Evandr2 said:
Try to remember that in the Bible, reference is made to more than one type of death. There is the death of the body, ashes to ashes and dust to dust so to speak and then there is the death of the spirit which is separation from the presence of God.

In short, by partaking of the forbidden fruit Adam and Eve subjected themselves to not one but two different forms of death.

God just says "You will die." he never specifies what kind of death it will be. besides, every single mainstream Xian source I have read says that this is why Humans physically die. You seem to be implying that it refers instead to spiritual death. And even then, it's false, unless you are saying that everyone goes to hell.

And if you say jesus came to die for our sins, then as long as people accept Jesus, then that whole original sin thing might as well never have happened. So we have God who set up a situation for Adam and Eve to sin and be punished terribly, and that poor snake sentenced to an eternity of biting heels and eating dust, and then God does something different? Don't you think the results are a bit harsh for something temporary?

The Lord never said that they would drop dead as to the body on the spot but He did imply that they would become subject to the death of the body. In Adams case it took 930 years but it did happen. The resurrection of Jesus has conquered this type of death and all mankind, every one bar none, will be resurrected in their own due time

He said it outright!

Genesis 2:17 said:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God CLEARLY specifies when the death will occur. "In the day that thou eatest thereof," he said. Doesn't get much clearer than that.

And God CLEARLY stated what would happen. "Thou shalt surely die," he said. He himself said it was a SURE THING.

There was no implication, no hinting. God made himself VERY clear and said it outright!

And as I said before, if everyone will be ressurected in their own time, then the punishment that was handed down to us from the original sin would seem to be nonexistant today! And needlessly harsh on Adam and Eve!

As to the second death or the death of the spirit, which is the denial of the presence of the Father for all eternity, only those who, in the final analysis, have chosen not to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ will so suffer. Lucifer is a powerful adversary and sad it is that there are a great many who will fall into that situation.

I'll refer back to this later.

Before they were cast out Adam and Eve walked and talked freely with God. There is evidence to support the idea that their memory of their casual relationship with God was veiled after they were cast out.

And this would be?

Before they partook of the forbidden fruit Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong and so forth so justice could have no claim on them.

And yet God punished them for doing wrong when they had no idea it was wrong until afterwards!

It's a bit silly to believe that God told A&E that eating the fruit was bad when they didn't know what bad was.

Getting cast out of the garden of Eden was a consequence of their action that they understood would happen.

They never had that understanding. God never said, "If you eat this, I'll kick you out." He just said that they'd die. They had no reason to believe that they'd be separated from God, and, as they'd never experienced death before, there's no reason to believe that God's warning carried any threat.

Such understanding did not require a knowledge of good and evil.

And yet expected them to be good when they had no knowledge of good?

Getting cast out could not have been a punishment for they had not wherewith to choose sin and therefore were not worthy of the execution of judgment.

They had not wherewith...? I don't speak olde-fasioned.

But it seems to me that you are saying that they didn't have the ability to choose sin, and thus shouldn't have been punished.

So... why were they cast out?

They could not have seen it as a punishment for they knew nothing of sin and the consequences thereof so getting cast out was a choice they made that they could fulfill God's commandment to be fruitful and replenish the earth. Fact is, they had no idea where getting cast out would land them.

Again, I find this rather unclear. Try shorter sentences.

In any case, God would have known that A&E didn't have any idea what he was talking about. They didn't understand that it was bad to eat the tree, and God knew it, yet he chose to punish them anyway.

While in the garden of Eden they were immortal and until they were cast out of the garden they had no children.

What? They would never die physically?

So now you are saying that eating the fruit rsulted in A&E dying physically.

Oh, I'm sorry, but you were speaking earlier of how the death was a SPIRITUAL death. Remember how you spoke of the two differnet types of death? let me refresh your memory.

You said, "In short, by partaking of the forbidden fruit Adam and Eve subjected themselves to not one but two different forms of death."

So, they already experienced one kind of death, and when they ate the fruit, they were subjected to the second kind of death as well, right?

Now, you just said that before they ate from the fruit, they were immortal. Firstly, this is very confusing, as it means that they didn't have ANY kind of death back then. Unless you are asking me to believe that A&E would have one day been zombies or something, walking around physically alive but spiritually dead.

But even if that is what you are asking, and A&E would have one day been physically alive yet spiritually dead, then that still requires them to experience a physical death - which, according to your earlier argument is impossible, because you said that the spiritual death - separation from God - didn't happen until AFTER they ate the fruit!

You don't seem to have a very solid argument if you yourself change it depending on the point you want to make.

If Lucifer had not set the ball rolling this would have been a condition of stalemate.

And we'd all be in a world without suffering, a world without death.

God didn't want that?

By partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they became as God knowing good and evil - of this point Lucifer did not lie. Lucifer understood that a stalemate would have prevented him from leading the other of God's children (that would be us)down to everlasting torment for they would never be placed in a position wherein they could be tempted by him.

The stalemate would have prevented him leading A&E away from God?

So, Lucifer came down - while there was a stalemate, mind! - and tempted A&E.

Even though you just said that he couldn't tempt them while there was that stalemate...?

God's plan was perfect in its design, equity, righteousness, implementation and execution even to the point of incorporating Lucifers unwitting cooperation.

Okay, here is where I will refer to the earlier part of your post, where you said, "As to the second death or the death of the spirit, which is the denial of the presence of the Father for all eternity, only those who, in the final analysis, have chosen not to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ will so suffer."

So according to you, God set all this in motion, so that we would have the ability to not keep the commandments of Jesus and he'd have an excuse to bring about this punishment and suffering? Sounds like a rather sadistic God!

In short, your argument seems to me to be based on assumptions about the Bible which don't follow from the actual biblical texts, and altering your views when required to maintain your argument.

I remain unconvinced.

Oh, and you are also assuming that it is Satan who was the snake. Genesis refers to him only as the snake. Why do you say it was Satan?

may · Sep 22, 2006

(Revelation 20:2) And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. revelation 12;7-9

(Genesis 3:1) Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: "Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?"

(2 Corinthians 11:3) But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, YOUR minds might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ........... oh dear what an opposer and a slanderer the original serpent has proved to be, but he only has a short period of time left and he will be put out of the way for a 1000 years. then Gods heavenly kingdom goverment can rule without any oppostion from him and his followers . then Gods purpose for the earth to be inhabited by righteous ones will come to be. and then we will have everlasting life back again

Tiberius · Sep 22, 2006

Given that Revelations was written long after genesis, is it not also possible that whoever wrote Revelation had read genesis and figured it was Satan?

All that shows is that there were people who though the serpent was Satan at the time Revelation was written.

may · Sep 23, 2006

Tiberius said:
Given that Revelations was written long after genesis, is it not also possible that whoever wrote Revelation had read genesis and figured it was Satan?

All that shows is that there were people who though the serpent was Satan at the time Revelation was written.

i like the way the bible gives all the answers to us , the bible harmonizes throughout when the correct understanding is applied . the bible answers it self.
The Scriptural account, therefore, makes it plain that it was Satan who spoke through the medium of a serpent, seducing Eve into disobedience to Gods command. In turn, Eve induced Adam to take the same rebellious course. (Ge 3:1-7; 2Co 11:3) As a consequence of Satans use of the serpent, the Bible gives Satan the title "Serpent," which came to signify "deceiver"; he also became "the Tempter" (Mt 4:3) and a liar, "the father of the lie."Joh 8:44; Re 12:9.

Evandr2 · Sep 23, 2006

Tiberius said:
God just says "You will die." he never specifies what kind of death it will be.

Please make up your mind, Did the Lord tell Adam and Eve that they would die the moment they partook of the fruit or not?

Tiberius said:
besides, every single mainstream Xian source I have read says that this is why Humans physically die. You seem to be implying that it refers instead to spiritual death. And even then, it's false, unless you are saying that everyone goes to hell.

I implied no such thing. The death of the spirit is the permanent separation of the individual from the presence of the Father which will happen only after the final judgment. Adam and Eve initiated two situations with regard to death.

First, the death of the body which Christ overcame for all mankind.
Second, the death of the spirit which it will be up to each individual to avoid be keeping the commandments of Jesus Christ.

Tiberius said:
And if you say Jesus came to die for our sins, then as long as people accept Jesus, then that whole original sin thing might as well never have happened. So we have God who set up a situation for Adam and Eve to sin and be punished terribly, and that poor snake sentenced to an eternity of biting heels and eating dust, and then God does something different? Don't you think the results are a bit harsh for something temporary?

Tiberious, I have a hard time discussing something with someone who has so limited an understanding of the great plan of salvation.

Jesus died for our sins but because mercy cannot rob justice we must keep the commandments of Jesus Christ and be proven worthy of that atonement or, for the individual who is found to not have chosen the path of Christ, they must walk the path of the demands of justice without the atonement having effect in their lives.

Original Sin? What does that mean? You assume too much! Adam and Eve did not sin nor were they punished and I have more than adequately explained to you why. If Adam and Eve had not been instruments in the hands of God to initiate the plan of salvation by becoming subject to death and being removed from the garden, it would have been like spending great amounts of time and effort preparing for a journey and then never leaving.

I dont know about you but I would have been sorely dismayed had Adam and Eve remained eternally in the Garden of Eden thusly denying me the privilege of embarking on a journey that has the potential to grant me all the blessings that my Heavenly Father has to give.

Tiberius said:
He said it outright!

You really have a knack for contradicting yourself. Read the first quote of this posting.

Tiberius said:
God CLEARLY specifies when the death will occur. "In the day that thou eatest thereof," he said. Doesn't get much clearer than that.

You have not got the foggiest idea of what God meant by death. I have tried to explain it to you but you have blinders on and refuse to embrace the idea that your concept of death is not absolute in its definition. According to your analysis of the whole situation, God was as confused then as you are now.

Tiberius said:
And God CLEARLY stated what would happen. "Thou shalt surely die," he said. He himself said it was a SURE THING.

Tiberius said:
There was no implication, no hinting. God made himself VERY clear and said it outright!

Yes, it was a sure thing but you seem to have no idea what that sure thing encompassed.

Tiberius said:
And as I said before, if everyone will be resurrected in their own time, then the punishment that was handed down to us from the original sin would seem to be nonexistent today! And needlessly harsh on Adam and Eve!

Yes, we will all be resurrected but the big question that should concern each of us is unto what We will all receive that portion of eternal glory that we have made ourselves worthy of and no more. The goal is exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom of God. Everyone will be resurrected but not everyone will be found worthy of exaltation.

Tiberius said:
And yet God punished them for doing wrong when they had no idea it was wrong until afterwards!

God did not punish them! Getting cast out was a consequence of their actions necessary to set this whole plan into motion. It is the reason you and I are her to have this conversation.

Tiberius said:
It's a bit silly to believe that God told A&E that eating the fruit was bad when they didn't know what bad was.

He didnt say it was bad, He said it was forbidden but He also said they could choose for themselves. Also, you are taking great license with regard to what you claim Adam and Eve understood. They may not have understood the difference between good and evil but that is the extent to what we know about what they comprehended.

Tiberius said:
They never had that understanding. God never said, "If you eat this, I'll kick you out." He just said that they'd die. They had no reason to believe that they'd be separated from God, and, as they'd never experienced death before, there's no reason to believe that God's warning carried any threat.

I refer you to my previous comment

Tiberius said:
And yet expected them to be good when they had no knowledge of good?

He did not expect them to be good nor could He. There was no concept of good or evil on the earth before Eve Chose to partake of the forbidden fruit.

Tiberius said:
They had not wherewith...? I don't speak old-fashioned.

Sorry, I am more accustomed to speaking with those who would not find my verbiage a thing to comment on.

I will have to continue this on the next post

Evandr2 · Sep 23, 2006

Tiberius said:
But it seems to me that you are saying that they didn't have the ability to choose sin, and thus shouldn't have been punished.

This is getting old They were not punished.

Tiberius said:
So... why were they cast out?

So they, and all their posterity, that includes you and me, could undertake this great quest to become worthy to be LIKE our Heavenly Father.

Tiberius said:
Again, I find this rather unclear. Try shorter sentences.

Yes, it is quite obvious that in future conversations with you I will have to do just that

Tiberius said:
In any case, God would have known that A&E didn't have any idea what he was talking about. They didn't understand that it was bad to eat the tree, and God knew it, yet he chose to punish them anyway.

Do you think that God is stupid?

Tiberius said:
What? They would never die physically?

Death is a consequence of action, Adam and Eve chose to go that route. It was wisdom that they did for Christ overcame that death, but without it, the great plan of salvation could not have been begun and the whole reason for existence would have been confounded.

Tiberius said:
So now you are saying that eating the fruit resulted in A&E dying physically.

Yes, when they reached the age wherein the death of the body occurs.

Tiberius said:
Oh, I'm sorry, but you were speaking earlier of how the death was a SPIRITUAL death. Remember how you spoke of the two different types of death? let me refresh your memory.

You do have a real knack for twisting words around. I have spoken plainly to you yet you choose to take my words out of context as you have done here. I did not say that the death was a spiritual death, I only said that by partaking of the forbidden fruit they placed themselves in a position where it could happen.

Tiberius said:
You said, "In short, by partaking of the forbidden fruit Adam and Eve subjected themselves to not one but two different forms of death."

One form, death of the body, for sure, and the other form, the death of the spirit, to that point only the possibility existed.

Tiberius said:
So, they already experienced one kind of death, and when they ate the fruit, they were subjected to the second kind of death as well, right?

Go back and re-read my posting!

Tiberius said:
Now, you just said that before they ate from the fruit, they were immortal. Firstly, this is very confusing, as it means that they didn't have ANY kind of death back then. Unless you are asking me to believe that A&E would have one day been zombies or something, walking around physically alive but spiritually dead.

Is God a zombie? He has been around a lot longer. Besides we dont know how long Adam and Eve were actually in the garden before they decided that enough was enough and they needed to make a change.

Tiberius said:
But even if that is what you are asking, and A&E would have one day been physically alive yet spiritually dead, then that still requires them to experience a physical death - which, according to your earlier argument is impossible, because you said that the spiritual death - separation from God - didn't happen until AFTER they ate the fruit!

It didnt, but neither did physical death until Adam was 930 years old, plenty of time to be spiritually dead and yet alive in the body.

Tiberius said:
You don't seem to have a very solid argument if you yourself change it depending on the point you want to make.

Its your argument that is built in a foundation of sand. I have laid things out quite logically to you and you have cut and pasted it into something unrecognizable and then proceeded to try to beat my over the head with it.

Tiberius said:
And we'd all be in a world without suffering, a world without death.

Tiberius said:
God didn't want that?

A world without progress, a world without glory, a world without growth.

God didnt want that!

Tiberius said:
The stalemate would have prevented him leading A&E away from God?

They were no more led away from God than you or I have been. This stalemate would have prevented the great plan of happiness from being initiated. I dont know about you but I have a very real and personal relationship with my Heavenly Father.

Tiberius said:
So, Lucifer came down - while there was a stalemate, mind! - and tempted A&E.

YES

Tiberius said:
Even though you just said that he couldn't tempt them while there was that stalemate...?

A stalemate has nothing to do with Lucifers ability to tempt.

Tiberius said:
Okay, here is where I will refer to the earlier part of your post, where you said, "As to the second death or the death of the spirit, which is the denial of the presence of the Father for all eternity, only those who, in the final analysis, have chosen not to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ will so suffer."

Tiberius said:
So according to you, God set all this in motion, so that we would have the ability to not keep the commandments of Jesus and he'd have an excuse to bring about this punishment and suffering? Sounds like a rather sadistic God!

NOT SO! A sadistic God would have left us in the state of spirituality, having no physical bodies, whose only purpose was to stand around and sing praises to God. How boring! How useless is that?

Tiberius said:
In short, your argument seems to me to be based on assumptions about the Bible which don't follow from the actual biblical texts, and altering your views when required to maintain your argument.

My argument makes perfect sense to those who have more understanding than you.

Tiberius said:
I remain unconvinced.

I remain unshaken

Tiberius said:
Oh, and you are also assuming that it is Satan who was the snake. Genesis refers to him only as the snake. Why do you say it was Satan?

Say What

may · Sep 23, 2006

Jesus Christ had himself come from the spirit realm and so could speak with authority on life there. He definitely identified Satan as an evil spirit person. (John 8:23; Luke 13:16; 22:31) Only by taking into account the existence of this spirit adversary is it possible to understand how such bad conditions got started on this earth.

may · Sep 23, 2006

Rather than make a direct bid for the woman to look to him as her ruler, Satan first sought to plant doubt in her mind, asking: "Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?" In effect, he was saying: It is too bad that God has said you may not eat from all the trees in the garden. By this he implied that possibly God was holding back something good. Eve answered by quoting Gods prohibition, which involved only one tree, as well as stating that the penalty for disobedience was death. At that, Satan attempted to undermine her respect for Gods law, saying: "You positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad." (Genesis 3:1-5) Faced with such a situation, what would you have done?

may · Sep 23, 2006

By his argument that Gods law to Adam and Eve was not good for them and by challenging Gods stated outcome for disobedience, Satan was calling into question Gods rulership. No, he did not question the fact that God is ruler. Rather, the issue that Satan raised centered on the rightfulness of Jehovahs rulership, His sovereignty, and the righteousness of His ways. Deceptively, Satan argued that humans would do better by acting independently, making their own decisions rather than submitting to Gods direction. (Genesis 3:4, 5) In reality, however, by so doing they would be following the leading of Gods adversary.

If there is the devil, why did God create him?

Genna

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