wanderer085 said:"God whose knowledge is unfathomable has the capacity to reveal himself to humans."
Then why hasn't it?
mmmmm....maybe your just not looking! :shout
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wanderer085 said:"God whose knowledge is unfathomable has the capacity to reveal himself to humans."
Then why hasn't it?
Evandr2 said:The Lord never said that they would drop dead as to the body on the spot but He did imply that they would become subject to the death of the body. In Adams case it took 930 years but it did happen.
Evandr2 said:Try to remember that in the Bible, reference is made to more than one type of death. There is the death of the body, ashes to ashes and dust to dust so to speak and then there is the death of the spirit which is separation from the presence of God.
In short, by partaking of the forbidden fruit Adam and Eve subjected themselves to not one but two different forms of death.
The Lord never said that they would drop dead as to the body on the spot but He did imply that they would become subject to the death of the body. In Adams case it took 930 years but it did happen. The resurrection of Jesus has conquered this type of death and all mankind, every one bar none, will be resurrected in their own due time
Genesis 2:17 said:But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
As to the second death or the death of the spirit, which is the denial of the presence of the Father for all eternity, only those who, in the final analysis, have chosen not to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ will so suffer. Lucifer is a powerful adversary and sad it is that there are a great many who will fall into that situation.
Before they were cast out Adam and Eve walked and talked freely with God. There is evidence to support the idea that their memory of their casual relationship with God was veiled after they were cast out.
Before they partook of the forbidden fruit Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong and so forth so justice could have no claim on them.
Getting cast out of the garden of Eden was a consequence of their action that they understood would happen.
Such understanding did not require a knowledge of good and evil.
Getting cast out could not have been a punishment for they had not wherewith to choose sin and therefore were not worthy of the execution of judgment.
They could not have seen it as a punishment for they knew nothing of sin and the consequences thereof so getting cast out was a choice they made that they could fulfill God's commandment to be fruitful and replenish the earth. Fact is, they had no idea where getting cast out would land them.
While in the garden of Eden they were immortal and until they were cast out of the garden they had no children.
If Lucifer had not set the ball rolling this would have been a condition of stalemate.
By partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they became as God knowing good and evil - of this point Lucifer did not lie. Lucifer understood that a stalemate would have prevented him from leading the other of God's children (that would be us)down to everlasting torment for they would never be placed in a position wherein they could be tempted by him.
God's plan was perfect in its design, equity, righteousness, implementation and execution even to the point of incorporating Lucifers unwitting cooperation.
i like the way the bible gives all the answers to us , the bible harmonizes throughout when the correct understanding is applied . the bible answers it self.Tiberius said:Given that Revelations was written long after genesis, is it not also possible that whoever wrote Revelation had read genesis and figured it was Satan?
All that shows is that there were people who though the serpent was Satan at the time Revelation was written.
Tiberius said:God just says "You will die." he never specifies what kind of death it will be.
Tiberius said:besides, every single mainstream Xian source I have read says that this is why Humans physically die. You seem to be implying that it refers instead to spiritual death. And even then, it's false, unless you are saying that everyone goes to hell.
Tiberius said:And if you say Jesus came to die for our sins, then as long as people accept Jesus, then that whole original sin thing might as well never have happened. So we have God who set up a situation for Adam and Eve to sin and be punished terribly, and that poor snake sentenced to an eternity of biting heels and eating dust, and then God does something different? Don't you think the results are a bit harsh for something temporary?
Tiberius said:He said it outright!
Tiberius said:God CLEARLY specifies when the death will occur. "In the day that thou eatest thereof," he said. Doesn't get much clearer than that.
Tiberius said:And God CLEARLY stated what would happen. "Thou shalt surely die," he said. He himself said it was a SURE THING.
Tiberius said:There was no implication, no hinting. God made himself VERY clear and said it outright!
Tiberius said:And as I said before, if everyone will be resurrected in their own time, then the punishment that was handed down to us from the original sin would seem to be nonexistent today! And needlessly harsh on Adam and Eve!
Tiberius said:And yet God punished them for doing wrong when they had no idea it was wrong until afterwards!
Tiberius said:It's a bit silly to believe that God told A&E that eating the fruit was bad when they didn't know what bad was.
Tiberius said:They never had that understanding. God never said, "If you eat this, I'll kick you out." He just said that they'd die. They had no reason to believe that they'd be separated from God, and, as they'd never experienced death before, there's no reason to believe that God's warning carried any threat.
Tiberius said:And yet expected them to be good when they had no knowledge of good?
Tiberius said:They had not wherewith...? I don't speak old-fashioned.
Tiberius said:But it seems to me that you are saying that they didn't have the ability to choose sin, and thus shouldn't have been punished.
Tiberius said:So... why were they cast out?
Tiberius said:Again, I find this rather unclear. Try shorter sentences.
Tiberius said:In any case, God would have known that A&E didn't have any idea what he was talking about. They didn't understand that it was bad to eat the tree, and God knew it, yet he chose to punish them anyway.
Tiberius said:What? They would never die physically?
Tiberius said:So now you are saying that eating the fruit resulted in A&E dying physically.
Tiberius said:Oh, I'm sorry, but you were speaking earlier of how the death was a SPIRITUAL death. Remember how you spoke of the two different types of death? let me refresh your memory.
Tiberius said:You said, "In short, by partaking of the forbidden fruit Adam and Eve subjected themselves to not one but two different forms of death."
Tiberius said:So, they already experienced one kind of death, and when they ate the fruit, they were subjected to the second kind of death as well, right?
Is God a zombie? He has been around a lot longer. Besides we dont know how long Adam and Eve were actually in the garden before they decided that enough was enough and they needed to make a change.Tiberius said:Now, you just said that before they ate from the fruit, they were immortal. Firstly, this is very confusing, as it means that they didn't have ANY kind of death back then. Unless you are asking me to believe that A&E would have one day been zombies or something, walking around physically alive but spiritually dead.
Tiberius said:But even if that is what you are asking, and A&E would have one day been physically alive yet spiritually dead, then that still requires them to experience a physical death - which, according to your earlier argument is impossible, because you said that the spiritual death - separation from God - didn't happen until AFTER they ate the fruit!
Tiberius said:You don't seem to have a very solid argument if you yourself change it depending on the point you want to make.
Tiberius said:And we'd all be in a world without suffering, a world without death.
Tiberius said:God didn't want that?
Tiberius said:The stalemate would have prevented him leading A&E away from God?
Tiberius said:So, Lucifer came down - while there was a stalemate, mind! - and tempted A&E.
Tiberius said:Even though you just said that he couldn't tempt them while there was that stalemate...?
Tiberius said:Okay, here is where I will refer to the earlier part of your post, where you said, "As to the second death or the death of the spirit, which is the denial of the presence of the Father for all eternity, only those who, in the final analysis, have chosen not to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ will so suffer."
Tiberius said:So according to you, God set all this in motion, so that we would have the ability to not keep the commandments of Jesus and he'd have an excuse to bring about this punishment and suffering? Sounds like a rather sadistic God!
Tiberius said:In short, your argument seems to me to be based on assumptions about the Bible which don't follow from the actual biblical texts, and altering your views when required to maintain your argument.
Tiberius said:I remain unconvinced.
Tiberius said:Oh, and you are also assuming that it is Satan who was the snake. Genesis refers to him only as the snake. Why do you say it was Satan?