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What will Abraham do if he returns to life? Will he believe in the Trinity

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
We'll let Jesus answer you here.
Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Since ALL who died before Jesus died as John 3:13 says that No man has ascended ^up^..........
Then like King David as mentioned at Acts of the Apostles 2:34 he did Not ascend, neither did the rest.
God is a God of the living because of the Resurrection Hope.
That Resurrection Hope includes Not only Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but also King David, and Daniel12:13.
Because of the Resurrection they are as good as considered alive in God's eyes, that is why the God of the Bible is the God of the living even though Resurrection Day (Jesus millennium-long day of governing over Earth) is Not yet here.
Please notice the ' future tense ' at Acts of the Apostles 24:15 because it says ' there is going to be ' a resurrection.
It does Not use the ' past tense ' that there was a resurrection.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Of course Muslims and Christians have serious theological differences. We have a serious cultural divide because of our faith............................

I also find among Christendom there is serious theological differences.
I like how you mention 'cultural divide' (cultural bias) because No matter what one believes, the opposing side will say that you have a bias toward that belief.

Some have a learned or an emotional predisposition to believe a certain way regardless of the facts.
That makes bias so tough to overcome, even because of being unaware of one's bias.
( people even go back and forth about a non-religious 1969 moon landing as being real or staged )
Bias teachings can become so ingrained that even when exposed the bias teaching remains.
So, to me we need to compare 1st-century Christian teachings against anything we hear or have learned.
This is the method that the ancient people of Acts of the Apostles 17:11 used.
They searched or researched the Scriptures daily to see if what they were hearing was really what the Scriptures really teach.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I also find among Christendom there is serious theological differences.
I like how you mention 'cultural divide' (cultural bias) because No matter what one believes, the opposing side will say that you have a bias toward that belief.

Some have a learned or an emotional predisposition to believe a certain way regardless of the facts.
That makes bias so tough to overcome, even because of being unaware of one's bias.
( people even go back and forth about a non-religious 1969 moon landing as being real or staged )
Bias teachings can become so ingrained that even when exposed the bias teaching remains.
So, to me we need to compare 1st-century Christian teachings against anything we hear or have learned.
This is the method that the ancient people of Acts of the Apostles 17:11 used.
They searched or researched the Scriptures daily to see if what they were hearing was really what the Scriptures really teach.
Absolutely correct. When it comes down to it I am a denomination of one. My goal is to be a complete ¨primitive´ Christian, that is, have my faith based solely on the doctrines of the Apostles. No creeds, no liturgy, no mans view of what is taught, but actually what is taught, in the New Testament, under the second Covenant through the direction and power of The Spirit.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Since ALL who died before Jesus died as John 3:13 says that No man has ascended ^up^..........
Then like King David as mentioned at Acts of the Apostles 2:34 he did Not ascend, neither did the rest.
God is a God of the living because of the Resurrection Hope.
That Resurrection Hope includes Not only Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but also King David, and Daniel12:13.
Because of the Resurrection they are as good as considered alive in God's eyes, that is why the God of the Bible is the God of the living even though Resurrection Day (Jesus millennium-long day of governing over Earth) is Not yet here.
Please notice the ' future tense ' at Acts of the Apostles 24:15 because it says ' there is going to be ' a resurrection.
It does Not use the ' past tense ' that there was a resurrection.
You seem to be overlooking what Paul taught about being "absent from the body but present with the Lord". So when anyone who is saved dies; yes their body is dead until the resurrection but their spirit is with God. As we know from Jesus Himself who said "into thy hands I commit my Spirit". And it says "he gave up the Ghost/Spirit".

Secondly in the case of Samuel we find that even though Samuel's body is dead. Yet somehow Saul is able to speak to Samuel's ghost/spirit.

If Jesus implied that Abraham was yet still alive then I would suggest that He was correct about it. Although Abraham physically must wait for the resurrection; yet his spirit is alive with God. That's what Jesus meant.

In Matthew 17 we find that both Moses and Elijah are alive and talking to Jesus. Besides you say no man has ascended and that proves that no one is alive until the resurrection. Which cannot be the correct conclusion. Because both Enoch and Elijah were carried up in a whirlwind or were "translated" that they would not see death.

Therefore, it's obvious that what Jesus meant when He said no one has ascended or descended except the Son of man; is that no one did it on their own strength. Enoch and Elijah were carried to heaven. The angels Jacob saw descended and ascended on a ladder. Again, they did not do it by their own strength.

But Jesus did it by Himself. Because Jesus is God.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
You seem to be overlooking what Paul taught about being "absent from the body but present with the Lord". So when anyone who is saved dies; yes their body is dead until the resurrection but their spirit is with God. As we know from Jesus Himself who said "into thy hands I commit my Spirit". And it says "he gave up the Ghost/Spirit".
Secondly in the case of Samuel we find that even though Samuel's body is dead. Yet somehow Saul is able to speak to Samuel's ghost/spirit.
In Matthew 17 we find that both Moses and Elijah are alive and talking to Jesus. Besides you say no man has ascended and that proves that no one is alive until the resurrection. Which cannot be the correct conclusion. Because both Enoch and Elijah were carried up in a whirlwind or were "translated" that they would not see death.

Adam did Not have life's spirit before God breathed the breath of life into lifeless Adam as per Genesis 2:7
Adam ' returned' to where he started according to Genesis 3:19 the dust of the ground.
As Matthew 17:9 is a VISION transfiguration No one in the VISION was alive but Jesus.
Paul too had a VISION. Jesus gave up his life's spirit at death.
As a foreclosed house does Not move or go anywhere but simply ' returns ' to the hands of the owner.
So, any future life's prospect thus lies in God's safe hands til Resurrection Day.
Jesus was NOT resurrected the day he died. Jesus went to the grave the day he died - Acts 2:27.
It was witchcraft Not any resurrection of Samuel.
How could Elijah ascend when Jesus teaches No man has ascended at John 3:13.
Elijah ascending in that wind storm it was like a powerful wind picking him up and moving him to another place.
That is why Elijah was still alive years later as per 2 Chronicles 21:12-15.
God took Enoch in the sense that God did Not let enemies kill off Enoch.
As in the case of Moses' body, God also disposed of Enoch's body - Hebrews 11:5; Deuteronomy 34:5-6; Jude 9.
So clearly as John 3:13 says, then Enoch was then Not taken to any heavenly residence but as Hebrews 11:3 says that they ALL ' died ' although they did Not get the fulfillment of the promise. ALL includes Enoch.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Absolutely correct. When it comes down to it I am a denomination of one. My goal is to be a complete ¨primitive´ Christian, that is, have my faith based solely on the doctrines of the Apostles. No creeds, no liturgy, no mans view of what is taught, but actually what is taught, in the New Testament, under the second Covenant through the direction and power of The Spirit.

I think Jesus could agree about 'primitive' Christianity if you mean the teaching as found in 1st-century Christianity.
Jesus' frowned about man's views as being in vain when based on men's traditions as per Matthew 15:9
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Adam did Not have life's spirit before God breathed the breath of life into lifeless Adam as per Genesis 2:7
Adam ' returned' to where he started according to Genesis 3:19 the dust of the ground.
As Matthew 17:9 is a VISION transfiguration No one in the VISION was alive but Jesus.
Paul too had a VISION. Jesus gave up his life's spirit at death.
As a foreclosed house does Not move or go anywhere but simply ' returns ' to the hands of the owner.
So, any future life's prospect thus lies in God's safe hands til Resurrection Day.
Jesus was NOT resurrected the day he died. Jesus went to the grave the day he died - Acts 2:27.
It was witchcraft Not any resurrection of Samuel.
How could Elijah ascend when Jesus teaches No man has ascended at John 3:13.
Elijah ascending in that wind storm it was like a powerful wind picking him up and moving him to another place.
That is why Elijah was still alive years later as per 2 Chronicles 21:12-15.
God took Enoch in the sense that God did Not let enemies kill off Enoch.
As in the case of Moses' body, God also disposed of Enoch's body - Hebrews 11:5; Deuteronomy 34:5-6; Jude 9.
So clearly as John 3:13 says, then Enoch was then Not taken to any heavenly residence but as Hebrews 11:3 says that they ALL ' died ' although they did Not get the fulfillment of the promise. ALL includes Enoch.
Yes, the JW view. I appreciate it yet do not agree with it, Yes, the word vision is used both by Paul, and describing the transfiguration.

I accept that when person is dead, they are dead. Yet God can resurrect anyone as he chooses. I believe there are two in the OT and that many in the NT.

God could have very easily resurrected whom He chose for his own purposes.

Paul, when says he was taken to an indescribable place, he also says he doesn't know if he was physically there, or not.

Frankly, I don't know what the true Koine Greek definition for the word translated vision, but I will get out Strongs, and some commentaries, and find out.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
As Matthew 17:9 is a VISION transfiguration No one in the VISION was alive but Jesus.
Why did they see a vision of Jesus talking to people that weren't real? Why would Jesus talk to people that were dead and not really there? It makes no sense. They were all alive. In fact Elijah never died. You don't really have an answer. Saying it was a vision is not enough.
Adam ' returned' to where he started according to Genesis 3:19 the dust of the ground.
Bodily yes. We are body, soul and spirit. (1 Thessalonians 5:23)
It was witchcraft Not any resurrection of Samuel.
Saying it was witchcraft does not cut it. The scripture makes it clear that Samuel really did appear; to the surprise and horror of the witch herself; who was expecting something else. She thought that she was seeing gods come out of the earth. But it was Samuel. Apparently she had never seen anyone who was saved come up before. She had probably only seen devils before masquerading as deceased people. But Samuel was really there this time. In this case, God must have done a special miracle to allow Samuel's spirit to really appear.

If you insist that Samuel did not truly appear; then you're doing damage to the integrity of the scriptures because that is what they claim happened. We must believe the scriptures.
How could Elijah ascend when Jesus teaches No man has ascended at John 3:13.
Elijah ascending in that wind storm it was like a powerful wind picking him up and moving him to another place.
Why ask a question twice?
It's very simple really. Elijah was taken up. He did not ascend. No one can ascend except God. (Proverbs 30:4)

As for the windstorm theory. That's what the sons of the prophets thought but Elisha turned out to be correct and they were wrong.
God took Enoch in the sense that God did Not let enemies kill off Enoch.
He was translated so that he would not see death. (Hebrews 11:5) This is the ancient understanding of it and the understanding of the writer of the book of Hebrews. You're going against the established understanding without proof.
As in the case of Moses' body, God also disposed of Enoch's body - Hebrews 11:5; Deuteronomy 34:5-6; Jude 9.
There is no scripture that says so.
So clearly as John 3:13 says, then Enoch was then Not taken to any heavenly residence but as Hebrews 11:3 says that they ALL ' died ' although they did Not get the fulfillment of the promise. ALL includes Enoch.
No it doesn't because he is clearly the exception. As we see in Hebrews 11:5 that he was translated so that he would not see death.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
So, any future life's prospect thus lies in God's safe hands til Resurrection Day.
You just can't explain how Jesus said to the thief "today you will be with me in paradise" And also why would Jesus make up a place like Abraham's bosom just for a parable? Jesus usually told parables about realistic things. But you insist He made up Hades and Abraham's bosom just for a story? Okay.

And you're ignoring evidence presented by the use of the Greek word Hades anyway. It's the realm of the dead in Greek mythology. Shades are there. That is disembodied human spirits. So evidence like that should not be ignored.

Then you also ignore all the evidence of surrounding cultures who all believed in realm of the dead. Sheol the realm of the rephaim. The dead. The Egyptians, the Canaanites and other cultures. That would make the ancient Hebrews the only culture that didn't believe in the realm of the dead! The historical evidence is mounting against your interpretation.

Other evidence shows that the demons are to be considered ghosts themselves. According to the book of Enoch when the giants died their spirits came out and were bound to the earth.
 

j1i

Smiling is charity without giving money
Which is funny for someone who gave his life.

Ciao

- viole

Welcome to my sister and welcome to you :)
I hope you are well and healthy and well

It is illogical that God descends from heaven to come out of the birth of a woman
While angels descend and are easily formed in human form without the need to be born of a woman
God could have descended into human form without having to be formed into a pregnant woman

Angels VS GOD Because they appear more competent

very strange when
Is that the prophecies say frankly that he will be one of the descendants of David
But then they said that he was the son of God
Why did GOD not say clearly that his son would come out of a woman of David genealogy?

Why was it mentioned that he would be descended from David without mentioning that he would be the Son of God

This prophecy must be very precise because it speaks of Jesus

It clearly shows that the story is wrong


with full respect for all
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Yes, the JW view. I appreciate it yet do not agree with it, Yes, the word vision is used both by Paul, and describing the transfiguration.
Paul, when says he was taken to an indescribable place, he also says he doesn't know if he was physically there, or not.
Frankly, I don't know what the true Koine Greek definition for the word translated vision, but I will get out Strongs, and some commentaries, and find out.

In Bible speak, so to speak, the VISION of Matthew 17:9 is just that a VISION and Not a real happening.
The real happening will be at the coming glory time of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
Paul was seeing the third heaven. The third heaven is the third heaven of 2 Peter 3:13.
1) The first heaven was the heaven of 2 Peter 3:5 the heavens of OLD ( Noah's day )
2) The second heaven is the heaven of 2 Peter 3:7 the heavens of NOW (from Noah's day to our day )
3) The third heaven is the heaven of 2 Peter 3:13 which is the NEW heaven and earth under Christ's millennial rule.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
You just can't explain how Jesus said to the thief "today you will be with me in paradise" .................

Sure, I can't explain, but the Bible sure can.
Most people seem to know that Jesus did Not go to heaven the day he died.
God did Not resurrect Jesus on the day he died.
I find in the Bible at Acts of the Apostles 2:27 that on the day Jesus died he went to the grave.
So, when Jesus said, 'today' you will be with me in paradise, that means 'on the day' (today) which Jesus died is the day that Jesus made the promise to the thief that he would be ( future tense ) in paradise.
On that day of death (today), 'you will be' with me in paradise, or when Earth will become a paradise during Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth when Earth will at that millennial time become a paradise as described at Revelation 22:2.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
What exactly is the trinity?

Most think of a trinity as God and His Son and God's spirit are all one equal person.
Scripture teaches God's Son was His first creation at Revelation 3:14 B.
Only God existed being from everlasting - Psalms 90:2
So, only God was before the beginning, and Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
God's spirit is a neuter "IT" at - Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25 - and Not a person.
So, No way is there a biblical trinity, but a non-biblical teaching just being taught as being Scripture when it isn't.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Sure, I can't explain, but the Bible sure can.
Most people seem to know that Jesus did Not go to heaven the day he died.
God did Not resurrect Jesus on the day he died.
I find in the Bible at Acts of the Apostles 2:27 that on the day Jesus died he went to the grave.
So, when Jesus said, 'today' you will be with me in paradise, that means 'on the day' (today) which Jesus died is the day that Jesus made the promise to the thief that he would be ( future tense ) in paradise.
On that day of death (today), 'you will be' with me in paradise, or when Earth will become a paradise during Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth when Earth will at that millennial time become a paradise as described at Revelation 22:2.
The Greek written language at the time did not use punctuation, it was added later. Therefore, ¨ I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise¨ became ¨ I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise¨.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The Greek written language at the time did not use punctuation, it was added later. Therefore, ¨ I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise¨ became ¨ I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise¨.

So, since Jesus went to hell ( biblical temporary grave ) on the day he died Acts of the Apostles 2:27), then yes, I tell you today, (comma) and 'future tense used' you 'will be' with me in Paradise.

Heaven was only offered to those like those of Luke 22:28-30.
Since the thief was Not part of that kingdom covenant, then the thief will be resurrected to healthy physical life on a beautiful paradisical Earth during Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth.
That is also why the ' future tense ' is used at Acts of the Apostles 24:15 that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.......
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
So, since Jesus went to hell ( biblical temporary grave ) on the day he died Acts of the Apostles 2:27), then yes, I tell you today, (comma) and 'future tense used' you 'will be' with me in Paradise.

Heaven was only offered to those like those of Luke 22:28-30.
Since the thief was Not part of that kingdom covenant, then the thief will be resurrected to healthy physical life on a beautiful paradisical Earth during Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth.
That is also why the ' future tense ' is used at Acts of the Apostles 24:15 that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.......
You are now talking about your anointed, your 144,000. I strongly disagree here.

If you choose, we can discuss the matter.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
I find in the Bible at Acts of the Apostles 2:27 that on the day Jesus died he went to the grave.
He went to Hades if we translate that literally. The place in Greek mythology of the dead "shades" also known as spirits of the dead.

God did Not resurrect Jesus on the day he died.
Well that's obvious. I never said otherwise.

So, when Jesus said, 'today' you will be with me in paradise, that means 'on the day' (today) which Jesus died is the day that Jesus made the promise to the thief that he would be ( future tense ) in paradise.
On that day of death (today), 'you will be' with me in paradise, or when Earth will become a paradise during Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth when Earth will at that millennial time become a paradise as described at Revelation 22:2.
Jesus had no need to say today in that case. So why does Jesus need to say "truly I say to you today; you will be with me in paradise"?

Why bother saying "today" at all? It makes no sense. The thief already knows that Jesus is telling him "today".

Who talks like that anyway?

So this is just a loop hole for you. Sorry.
Most people seem to know that Jesus did Not go to heaven the day he died.
Well we can't "know" that. But, no one claimed He went to heaven. If you look at the parable of the rich man and Lazarus you will find that Abraham's bosom is in Hades not heaven. That is most likely the paradise Jesus spoke of.

In both Greek and Hebrew beliefs. Hades or in Hebrew Sheol is the place where the dead are. The spirits of those who died. Clearly according to Jesus there; in Hades there is a place for righteous souls; where they will be comforted. This is not to be confused with the resurrection of the just; which does not take place until Christ returns.
 
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