Marriage and murder

I don't know if there are any small percentage of christians who honestly believe this, but I remember talking with my Roman Catholic friend about marriage. She said one day she wanted to married. After an interesting talk, I asked her if I were married would she come to my wedding.

She says: That's murder!

Then she paused and I told her that was an insult.

I reflected throughout the years of being friends and realised she wasn't my friend. After I became Catholic for the wrong reasons, when I left, she stopped talking to me as if I spit on christ.

I am sure there are a good number of christians who associate gay marriage with murder. While many would not say it to another person's face, associating marriage with murder, rape, and abuse shocks me.

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But, my questions are. Why would a gay person want to be Christian when many Christian denominations associate their marriage with murder?

-why be Christian if your community calls you a murderer?

Who would want to be Christian when denominations insult the very nature if who these people are?

Would you be Christian if you thought jesus does not accept you for who you are and do you define yourself by your actions or by your spirit in christ?

Some other questions I hope christians answer honestly to their inner faith regardless if they chose not to be rude (thank you!).

If I left gods soul in the hearts of all people has no gender nor sex at all (organs and genitalia) and you decide to marry another person's soul, how would you determine is your marriage is akin to murder or something god blessed you with having?

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I know many christians wont answer, but anyways, my main question is if you felt marriage between two men or two women is akin to murder (whether you express it or not) Why would anyone want to come to Christ?

Why would they be part of a community who defines them as murderers?

I am sure there are a good number of christians who associate gay marriage with murder. While many would not say it to another person's face, associating marriage with murder, rape, and abuse shocks me.

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While I'm just as puzzled as you about associating gay marriage with murder, I've seen many who see marriage (heterosexual or otherwise) as a license to rape and abuse your spouse.

crossfire said:

While I'm just as puzzled as you about associating gay marriage with murder, I've seen many who see marriage (heterosexual or otherwise) as a license to rape and abuse your spouse.

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Really?!

Unveiled Artist said:

Really?!

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Yeah, it's not even illegal in all countries.

Unveiled Artist said:

She says: That's murder!

Then she paused and I told her that was an insult.

I reflected throughout the years of being friends and realised she wasn't my friend. After I became Catholic for the wrong reasons, when I left, she stopped talking to me as if I spit on christ.

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That must be sick feeling... I don't understand what they were thinking.

Jumi said:

Yeah, it's not even illegal in all countries.


That must be sick feeling... I don't understand what they were thinking.

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I can't imagine people going through life believing that. What is ironic is she believes in charity and helping others in need. I'd be insulted if someone helped me but at the same time considered me a murderer. Some homeless I know have a lot of pride to where if a person isn't genuine in their charity, they would literally say no to whatever resources they are given. Not all but I do know a few.

Charity isn't selfish.

I replied and then I saw this is in debate section. I hereby declare that I do not debate on this issue, just sharing my thoughts.

Unveiled Artist said:

I don't know if there are any small percentage of christians who honestly believe this, but I remember talking with my Roman Catholic friend about marriage. She said one day she wanted to married. After an interesting talk, I asked her if I were married would she come to my wedding.

She says: That's murder!

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Wow !!! At least she was honest about her belief. Most Christians I meet "only think these things". Luckily I mostly can hear them thinking

Unveiled Artist said:

Then she paused and I told her that was an insult.

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You were too kind in your reply and you were more Christian-like than she was IMHO

Unveiled Artist said:

I reflected throughout the years of being friends and realised she wasn't my friend. After I became Catholic for the wrong reasons, when I left, she stopped talking to me as if I spit on christ.

I am sure there are a good number of christians who associate gay marriage with murder. While many would not say it to another person's face, associating marriage with murder, rape, and abuse shocks me.

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I went to a Baptist Church and experienced similar what you experienced. I went also for the "wrong" reasons I could say; not to become a Christian, but for my own personal motives (My Master says it's good to know about other religions and to understand). So I am glad I went, now I know beyond a doubt how the majority of them thinks about gay. I needed this experience, because I used to be too gullible, always giving people the advantage of my doubt. I learned that people hardly change when it comes to religion. So if Bible/Koran verses are negative about gay than chances are very high that followers believe this in my experience so far.

Unveiled Artist said:

But, my questions are. Why would a gay person want to be Christian when many Christian denominations associate their marriage with murder?
-why be Christian if your community calls you a murderer?
Who would want to be Christian when denominations insult the very nature if who these people are?

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I decided I will never call myself a Christian because they discriminate/judge gay etc.etc. I love Jesus and Jesus loves me, this I know for a fact. and I know that Jesus loves gay also. I am a lover of Christ and that is enough for me. I rather stay far away from people who are so big on judging/discriminating other humans etc. So I never call myself a Christian, I rather call myself Hindu or Buddhist or just spiritual being. For me all the great Saints are my inspiration. I am blessed with the belief that any path I choose is okay.

Unveiled Artist said:

Why would they be part of a community who defines them as murderers?

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Some people are into masochism.

I could just not believe that a Christian would be that way. I had to experience this to really believe it (I learned that people hardly change; good lesson). Believe in God is more easy than believe that someone calling him/her self a Christian in the same sentence judges gay and what not.

I wish you all the best my RF-sister. It must be very hard to be gay, because still many people are very judgmental towards gay, I know, also in Holland (at least for me it's hard to be around judgmental people) . Obviously because we have 1 million Muslims here + 7 million Christians. So there will be more than one or two who judge gay

stvdv said:

I replied and then I saw this is in debate section. I hereby declare that I do not debate on this issue, just sharing my thoughts.


Wow !!! At least she was honest about her belief. Most Christians I meet "only think these things". Luckily I mostly can hear them thinking


You were too kind in your reply and you were more Christian-like than she was IMHO


I went to a Baptist Church and experienced similar what you experienced. I went also for the "wrong" reasons I could say; not to become a Christian, but for my own personal motives (My Master says it's good to know about other religions and to understand). So I am glad I went, now I know beyond a doubt how the majority of them thinks about gay. I needed this experience, because I used to be too gullible, always giving people the advantage of my doubt. I learned that people hardly change when it comes to religion. So if Bible/Koran verses are negative about gay than chances are very high that followers believe this in my experience so far.


I decided I will never call myself a Christian because they discriminate/judge gay etc.etc. I love Jesus and Jesus loves me, this I know for a fact. and I know that Jesus loves gay also. I am a lover of Christ and that is enough for me. I rather stay far away from people who are so big on judging/discriminating other humans etc. So I never call myself a Christian, I rather call myself Hindu or Buddhist or just spiritual being. For me all the great Saints are my inspiration. I am blessed with the belief that any path I choose is okay.


Some people are into masochism.

I could just not believe that a Christian would be that way. I had to experience this to really believe it (I learned that people hardly change; good lesson). Believe in God is more easy than believe that someone calling him/her self a Christian in the same sentence judges gay and what not.

I wish you all the best my RF-sister. It must be very hard to be gay, because still many people are very judgmental towards gay, I know, also in Holland (at least for me it's hard to be around judgmental people) . Obviously because we have 1 million Muslims here + 7 million Christians. So there will be more than one or two who judge gay

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Yeah. Thank you. I put this in debates cause I think people just like to debate even though the nature of the questions dont reflect it.

But, yeah. If many christians think like she did, I honestly dont know any christians who do not associate being gay with doing "gay things" as if only gays are more influenced to do gay things than straights. We can control our actions (I think?)

I like practicing Dharma not so much that it supports homosexuality, it doesnt. But more because it just-doesnt-care. There are cultural laws that only focus and female but they dont have any place in training the mind and enlightenment. As long as one has proper sexual relations (which is associated with lust) then everything, as apropriate, is fine.

But, anyway, Im glad your master views things more openly. When you have a teacher (parent, clergy, so have you) that is open for spiritual growth, a lot of the time I assume the bias really doesnt mean anything to students in the scheme of things. Thats my thoughts.

But, yeah, if the god I understand in my signature was personified, I wouldnt think "he or she" cares who I am with as long as its a healthy relationship without distracting from spiritual matters and growth (unless it supports it....hopefully).

Thanks. Though.

Unveiled Artist said:

Why would they be part of a community who defines them as murderers?

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I've been Catholic for my whole life.
I've heard some extremely judgemental things. But I've never heard that. I know that there are people who categorize gay marriage as a profound sin, but I've never heard it equated to murder.
Not from anybody else either. I think your "friend" is just a weirdo. I can only hope that she misspoke or you misheard.

But people are strange sometimes.
Tom

Unveiled Artist said:

We can control our actions (I think?)

I like practicing Dharma not so much that it supports homosexuality, it doesnt. But more because it just-doesnt-care. There are cultural laws that only focus and female but they dont have any place in training the mind and enlightenment. As long as one has proper sexual relations (which is associated with lust) then everything, as apropriate, is fine.

But, anyway, Im glad your master views things more openly. When you have a teacher (parent, clergy, so have you) that is open for spiritual growth, a lot of the time I assume the bias really doesnt mean anything to students in the scheme of things. Thats my thoughts.

But, yeah, if the god I understand in my signature was personified, I wouldnt think "he or she" cares who I am with as long as its a healthy relationship without distracting from spiritual matters and growth (unless it supports it....hopefully).

Thanks. Though.

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@Unveiled Artist:
I thought I could control my actions. Because of health issues I am on a very restricted diet. And I could not control my diet in the beginning. Even now once in a while I do eat icecream and chocolate, knowing it is not good for me. But at least I do not fool myself and I am honest to myself. The moment I accepted that i could not control all things at once, it became better. And the less I try to control the better I control.

I love religions from the east, because they are all about "Self" Realization, so about introspection. Christianity and Islam is more about judging others because they have evangelizing in them, which means per definition that you judge the other's religion/feeling/actions.

My Master goes one step further. He who judges another human (or animal or plant ....) He judges his own God. I just follow this advice. Simple.

The God in your signature is the God I believe in; which I learned from Sanathana Dharma, Advaita and my Master. I am happy to see your signature. Love is a much healthier way of thinking than Hell and Doom IMO. Personally I like you very much. You have so many challenges (physical ++) and still you are so loving and respectful. If I were God, I would love you very much, and if God does not love you (assuming this type of God exists of course) then I can honestly say "God you are crazy and I do not believe in you".

columbus said:

I've been Catholic for my whole life.
I've heard some extremely judgemental things. But I've never heard that. I know that there are people who categorize gay marriage as a profound sin, but I've never heard it equated to murder.
Not from anybody else either. I think your "friend" is just a weirdo. I can only hope that she misspoke or you misheard.

But people are strange sometimes.
Tom

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Thanks. Just making sure But, yeah, I never heard of that from other Catholics. I was thinking maybe this is something thats so strong that theyd consider it murder just as rape, abuse, and all the other stuff* they list in the bible. But, unlike evangelist, I never heard anyone get raddled over it.

Unveiled Artist said:

I don't know if there are any small percentage of christians who honestly believe this, but I remember talking with my Roman Catholic friend about marriage. She said one day she wanted to married. After an interesting talk, I asked her if I were married would she come to my wedding.

She says: That's murder!

Then she paused and I told her that was an insult.

Click to expand...

It took me a while to understand why she said "That's murder". But I believe I got it now.

A Christian MUST evangelize (majority). You can only evangelize IF you believe the other's religion is wrong and his behavior is wrong. Calling his religion wrong is "stupid" because it's Ad Hominem attack so that is "not done". Next best is calling his behavior wrong.

IF you want to win a soul for your religion you MUST emphasize that he is very wrong. How to do that best?

1) Attack the person on his most vulnerable feeling by addressing him "You are a homosexual (forgetting he is just a homo sapiens)".
2) Then smooth talk a little "I love you, God loves you". To get you to open up.
3) And then comes the killer blow (more hard after smooth talk) saying "BUT it's a sin".
4) Then continuing with "I did not make the rules" which is a sneaky way to make sure that God can't blame them for judging them.

BUT I warn These Christians `This won't fly with God`. You can fool yourself, maybe a few others, but for sure you can't fool the majority

5) And finally the icing of the cake "Homosexuality is a sin, it's like murder".

To win a soul they don't mind using any tactic. Here they use the tactic to exaggerate. So that you really feel bad. I call this emotional blackmail. BUT not ordinary emotional blackmail. This I call Voodoo; spiritual emotional blackmail with the intent to "kill" you emotional UNLESS you surrender to Jesus. A weak emotional person will die of such Voodoo. I have met one woman who died of this type of Voodoo; black magic

So to all Christians "Before you do this practice again remember that I warned you. When you meet Jesus you can't say that you did not know"

This I call "White Magic" to counter these Christian's "Black Magic",

08 nov 2018 Christians
Now you got me curious. Are anti gay Christians really so much into murder?

I was in a Baptist Church for 4 years and I am really good to "not hear" if it's not good for me. But the youtube below was too clear to "not hear"

This Baptist priest found the cure for aids in the Bible. He said it was there all along. Kill all the gay people and by Christmas most of aids will be gone.

I know that the Baptist priest in my church was following American Baptists; hence his slogan "Pray gay away" I guess. Killing gay in Holland is, till now, a bit over the top. But if we allow these priests to live, there might come a day that they allow to kill gay. So maybe we should start killing all the priests who preach this; These priests seem to me pretty much like how Adolph Hitler started?

Suggesting to kill these priests is quite "Jesus alike" IMO. Because a priest taught me the below line:
1) Do unto others what you want them to do unto you.
So for me it's an easy deduction from the above:
2) What you do unto others you want them to do unto you.
You need not be an Albert Einstein to figure that one out,

stvdv said:

08 nov 2018 Christians
Now you got me curious. Are anti gay Christians really so much into murder?

I was in a Baptist Church for 4 years and I am really good to "not hear" if it's not good for me. But the youtube below was too clear to "not hear"

This Baptist priest found the cure for aids in the Bible He said it was there all along. Kill all the gay people and by Christmas most of aids will be gone.

I know that the Baptist priest in my church was following American Baptists; hence his slogan "Pray gay away" I guess. Killing gay in Holland is, till now, a bit over the top. But if we allow these priests to live, there might come a day that they allow to kill gay. So maybe we should start killing all the priests who preach this; This is how Adolph Hitler started?

Suggesting to kill these priests is quite "Jesus alike" IMO. Because a priest taught me the below line:
1) Do unto others what you want them to do unto you.
So for me it's an easy deduction from the above:
2) What you do unto others you want them to do unto you.
You need not be an Albert Einstein to figure that one out,

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One thing that got me not to be Catholic nor any form of Christian was this: https://couragerc.org/about/ it's a program that the Church helps youth with their addictive attractions. The idea is either go straight or be celibate.


"These men and women testify to the power of grace, the nobility and resilience of the human heart." — Cardinal Robert Sarah

I just do not understand. If you love the sinner and hate the sin don't try to change us. That's a slap in the face.

But, I really did want to know how or what is the idea of someone coming to Christ when the community and interpretation of the bible insults who they are?


Many LGBTQ believe in god yet are isolated from any of their Catholic peers. How so you win someone to Christ like that.

I mean, I know a lot of no christians and nontraditional christians disagree but those that believe these things I never had a sit down to understand it.

The closest I got was in mass years ago when the priest talked about the sacrament of marriage. Not once did he mention LGBTQ nor homosexuality not even hinted at it. I've been to churches outside Catholic and there is an emphasis on it. It was refreshing to disagree with something that's not even put into importance insomuch as to be a part of mass.

But that's about as far as I went. Online it's harder especially on RF.

Unveiled Artist said:

One thing that got me not to be Catholic nor any form of Christian was this: https://couragerc.org/about/ it's a program that the Church helps youth with their addictive attractions. The idea is either go straight or be celibate.

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Yes that was the program they had in the Baptist Church I visited. It's like "Fake it till you make it". Really sick or is it slick in english. For God's sake we are talking about people who try to love each other. They make it look like gays are murderers. It really starts to sink in now. These Christians are mentally .....

And the sickest part is this. If the priest says "Okay gays I will do the program with you. From now on I will go also celibate (we all know by now that priests are not that big on celibate if we can believe the news nowadays)". But the judgmental Christians have lots of sex themselves (plenty of kids are born in Church; maybe because some believed the bird flew them over). You should never tell someone to NOT HAVE SEX if you have sex yourself. Shut the fack up as long as you fack up yourself.

Unveiled Artist said:

I just do not understand. If you love the sinner and hate the sin don't try to change us. That's a slap in the face.

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I just call people judging that way "being a hypocrite". They just hate you using this emotional blackmail on you. Zero empathy, that's obvious.

Unveiled Artist said:

But, I really did want to know how or what is the idea of someone coming to Christ when the community and interpretation of the bible insults who they are?

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1: Do you mean why Christians go for Christ knowing that Christ "murders" gays? Yes that's mindblowing isn't it. "love thy neighbor" is gone here.
2: Do you mean why gay still want to go to the Church knowing Christ "murders" gays? That is strange indeed, but easy to understand IMO remembering that 100 years ago 99% were Christians (even 60 years ago major part was Christians). We all know that evolution goes slow. So this Black Cloud of emotional blackmail which has been going on for 2000 years is infested deep in the unconsciousness of man/woman. We even know that it takes about 3 generations for refugees to fit in in the new country. So now that we have like 40% of atheists in the Holland probably in 100 years there will be finally a saner way of thinking.

I was taught by my parents to eat more than I could stomach. Took about 30 years to unlearn. Imagine if you were taught and brainwashed that you will go to hell IF you are gay (so many people still get killed nowadays just for being gay in certain countries). And this is what most people still believe, though not speak out loud. This is still hanging as a big black cloud over the world. Maybe now we are getting a little close to a switch.

But if we allow Islam to get it their way, then we will lose another 100 years. But truth will win I believe. I believe the big religions who judge so much are about to loose it. Thanks to Atheism, so thanks to religious "untruth" IMO. People see now that atheists are not killed so far by God; theists who claim that God hates atheists are 100% more likely to kill atheists than God. So that will take away the fear of a killing God.

Unveiled Artist said:

But that's about as far as I went. Online it's harder especially on RF.

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At least we have RF rule number 8. That should take care of this,

Unveiled Artist said:

...
I know many christians wont answer, but anyways, my main question is if you felt marriage between two men or two women is akin to murder (whether you express it or not) Why would anyone want to come to Christ?

Why would they be part of a community who defines them as murderers?

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Bible tells:
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he has become guilty of all. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," said also, "Do not commit murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
James 2:10-11

That is why it can be said that person is murderer, if he brakes God’s will in any part. Person who breaks the law, breaks the whole law. It is not possible to brake it just from some part, if you reject it, you reject it wholly. And person who is willing to brake it in small part, can do it in every part. When one has rejected God, there is no limit in evilness that person can do, if he feels it is good thing to do. Luckily most people don’t go further, but when one has come over the border, the person can do any evil action possible.

It all comes to the question, is person righteous. If person can go against God in one thing, it shows is person righteous or not. And if person is not righteous, he will do all kind of evil things, if it suits him.


These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

And by fruit they can be recognized.


By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. A good tree can't produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn't grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.
Matt. 7:16-20

Righteousness is the key in this, if person is righteous, he wants to do freely what is good and right, because he understands it is good. If person is not righteous, he doesn’t get eternal life, because he could do all kind of evil things.

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

I wouldn’t want to be in company of unrighteous people. People who don’t have right understanding, could do all kind of evil actions.

And you ask, why would anyone come to Jesus, if marriage between two men or two women is akin to murder. All people who are righteous, would come to Jesus, because they understand that marriage between two men or women is not reasonable.

1213 said:

Bible tells:
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he has become guilty of all. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," said also, "Do not commit murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
James 2:10-11

That is why it can be said that person is murderer, if he brakes God’s will in any part. Person who breaks the law, breaks the whole law. It is not possible to brake it just from some part, if you reject it, you reject it wholly. And person who is willing to brake it in small part, can do it in every part. When one has rejected God, there is no limit in evilness that person can do, if he feels it is good thing to do. Luckily most people don’t go further, but when one has come over the border, the person can do any evil action possible.

It all comes to the question, is person righteous. If person can go against God in one thing, it shows is person righteous or not. And if person is not righteous, he will do all kind of evil things, if it suits him.


These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

And by fruit they can be recognized.


By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. A good tree can't produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn't grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.
Matt. 7:16-20

Righteousness is the key in this, if person is righteous, he wants to do freely what is good and right, because he understands it is good. If person is not righteous, he doesn’t get eternal life, because he could do all kind of evil things.

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

I wouldn’t want to be in company of unrighteous people. People who don’t have right understanding, could do all kind of evil actions.

And you ask, why would anyone come to Jesus, if marriage between two men or two women is akin to murder. All people who are righteous, would come to Jesus, because they understand that marriage between two men or women is not reasonable.

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It seems you use murder in a different light. If someone took my pocket book or insulted my mother, that would be different than taking a life. If someone abused their spouse while the other couple love their spouse, who am I to say they both sined in the same manner as the other?

Can love be divided?

Edit. My example isn't an analogy. I just use spouses since love knows no gender.

Unveiled Artist said:

It seems you use murder in a different light. If someone took my pocket book or insulted my mother, that would be different than taking a life.

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But all actions against God’s Law are transgressions of the Law. It doesn’t really matter what the transgression is, they all are transgressions and thus as bad. The mind is as unrighteous in all cases where person goes against God. Of course, the action may be different, but the mind that produces evil actions, is as evil.

1213 said:

But all actions against God’s Law are transgressions of the Law. It doesn’t really matter what the transgression is, they all are transgressions and thus as bad. The mind is as unrighteous in all cases where person goes against God. Of course, the action may be different, but the mind that produces evil actions, is as evil.

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That doesn't make sense. So, people can be reprimanded for taking a pocket book. What is the logic on the two different laws?

How is theift the same as murder?


I know you said they are gods laws but that doesn't explain the difference between the two or logic behind it.

Unveiled Artist said:

How is theift the same as murder?

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They are same in that both are breaking the law. When person brakes the law in any point, he brakes the law. It is not possible to say after that “I have not broken the law, if I have just done wrongly in one part”. All actions that are breaking the law, show that person doesn’t agree and appreciate it, or the one who gave it. It also shows person is not righteous, has not wisdom of the just, and that is the real problem. Person who is not righteous, can eventually brake the law in all possible parts.