The Trinity dogma comes from the Council of Nicaea, convened by the "beast with two horns like a lamb" (Revelation 13:11), Constantine, who also instituted the Roman Church. The Trinity, and its cross image is the mark of that beast, who was Constantine, whose god/"dragon" was Sol Invictus, the god of the sun.. According to Revelation 14:10, any one with the mark of the beast will drink from the cup of God's wrath. That is not the kind of "salvation" one generally looks forward to. The Nicene Trinity Church is the church officially deemed as the church of Rome by the Roman Emperor Theodosius in 380 AD. When one worships the beast, they worship the "dragon" (Revelation 13:4). When one worships the beast, they remain in the grave for another 1000 years (Revelation 20:4).
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The Trinity dogma comes from the Council of Nicaea, convened by the "beast with two horns like a lamb" (Revelation 13:11), Constantine, who also instituted the Roman Church. The Trinity, and its cross image is the mark of that beast, who was Constantine, whose god/"dragon" was Sol Invictus, the god of the sun.. According to Revelation 14:10, any one with the mark of the beast will drink from the cup of God's wrath. That is not the kind of "salvation" one generally looks forward to. The Nicene Trinity Church is the church officially deemed as the church of Rome by the Roman Emperor Theodosius in 380 AD. When one worships the beast, they worship the "dragon" (Revelation 13:4). When one worships the beast, they remain in the grave for another 1000 years (Revelation 20:4).
You keep building your house on the words of Paul. That house will "fall" (Matthew 7:24-27). Paul as the false prophet, will apparently find himself in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10). As for after Yeshua left, John stated that the sinners, those who practices sin, are sons of the devil, and those born of God, "cannot sin" (1 John 3:8-9).
Now can you interpret what you spoke, or you just sowing confusion? One of my friends was Assembly of God, and she apparently spoke in tongues, but was caused to stumble (Matthew 18:6) by her church and its teachings, and wound up in hell (New Jersey).
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Mind if I ask by what authority you say that about Paul?
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Not much to really "interpret" there. It just says Paul was glad he spoke in tongues a lot. Believing that is totally optional.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Geez, I don't like the Gospels. Let's axe them while we're at it.
Just kidding. I like the Gospels and Paul. I'll keep 'em both. That's just me though, feel free to get rid of any scripture you want.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Just hold forth the truth brother. God gives the increase and He says His word never returns void but accomplishes that which He intended.
Isa 55:11,
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
I understand your sadness and anger, but just trust God to accomplish His will. All you can do is speak. You never know whose heart you may touch, even if it takes years to do so. I remember when hardly anybody at all knew the trinity was not scriptural. It is slowly changing, praise God!
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Yeah, schizophrenic is closer to what it is than weird. I was just trying not to be overly harsh. I suppose there is really no reason to do that though. Truth is truth. We should tell it like it is! Thanks.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Well, our salvation is one thing and our walk is another thing. I think the Epistles make it clear that salvation is by grace and not by works.
Eph 2:8-10,
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The latter part of verse 10 mentions that we were saved so we could do the good works. The ability to do the works is a result of our salvation, which clearly came by grace, not by works.9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Whether or not we do the good works does not affect our salvation though. Jesus was a complete savior. He saved us because we couldn't do it ourselves. Before he saved us we were dead in trespasses and sins.
Eph 2:1-5,
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).
Dead people aren't in much of a position to do any good works at all. That's why we first needed the salvation which came by the works of Jesus, not our own. Salvation is by grace. None of us deserved it. We were all scoundrels before being born again!
In short, don't confuse salvation with the works God has given us to do after being saved. Two different animals altogether.
The Trinity doctrine developed in the 3rd century and had its present form late in the 4th. The aim was to raise Jesus to the status of 'God' without being open to the charge of pagan polytheism.
The doctrine states: ‘The One God exists as three persons and one substance’ (Oxford Dict. of the Christian Church) also phrased, ‘In the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another’ (Catholic Encyclopedia).
This means that none of the three persons is less than God, therefore each of the three persons is 100% of God. Which further means that the doctrine of the Trinity is incoherent ─ 100% + 100% + 100% = 300%, which necessarily means three gods.
This incoherence is acknowledged, not debated. OxDCC calls it ‘a mystery in the strict sense’ ie the doctrine ‘can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed’. The Cath. Encl. calls it an ‘absolute mystery’: ‘An absolute mystery is a truth whose existence or possibility could not be discovered by a creature, and whose essence (inner substantial being) can be expressed by the finite mind only in terms of analogy, e.g. the Trinity’ (which comes to the same thing as the first but not so bravely put).
The Tanakh never mentions God as a Trinity.
The NT never mentions God as a Trinity.
Jesus never once claims to be God.
Jesus repeatedly >states that he is not God<, simply God's agent or envoy.
Not even Paul thinks Jesus is God. Paul thinks Yahweh is God and Jesus is Lord.
So it would seem rather odd for a follower of Jesus to ignore Jesus' own repeated message and think that Jesus required belief in the Trinity as an essential for salvation.
Perhaps the problem is that most Christians tend not to read their bibles critically, with the aim of understanding what is actually written, but rather know what they know of it through the pulpit ( a source not much famed for its objectivity).
We All know this universe contains of billion of galaxy, and very big possible in each galaxy at least there is one inhabited planet like earth.. meaning there are billions of inhabited earth.. how manytimes jesus should re born, incarnate and each planet, how many billion he should dead on the cross in each planet for salbation?? Funny
By the way, where did the canon for the present books in the NT that you use come from? It came from the bishop of Alexandria, Athanasius, a guy who was present at the Council of Nicaea, who was a head cheerleader for the false Trinity dogma. The abominations keep coming (Revelation 17:5). And when did he release that canon? Oh, yeah, he released them on the pagan festival of Easter in 367 A.D..
Certainly not be the authority of the beast, his false prophet, and the devil, who are now at this moment, in the form of their "demon spirits", gathering all the "kings of the whole world" to Har-Magedon. (Revelation 16:13-16).
Revelation 16: 13And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; 14for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. 15(“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”) 16And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
shmogie
Well-Known Member
There is no doubt that at least 80% of the canon was in use in the second century.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Paul, a false prophet ? Hilarious. Matthew was a pro golfer also.
This is also like trying to read A text through 2,000 years of development. The split grows daily between its now incomprehensible nonsense in one end of spectrum to, it must believed mindlessly on the other end. The text is not the problem its us. That is not remotely addressed in christian theology because its the problem.
He was? I although now that i think of it he did seem to indicate he had a handicap of sorts called an affliction. Clearly he is talking about a horrible slice.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
To answer your question,
You said ( Why would God not make a requirement to believe in the trinity as plain as the nose on one's face?)
All because God gave each individual a brain to think with, God is not going to do all your work for you.That means studying the Bible for ones self. Don't Waite to be spoon fed.
There are lot people as well as Christians that don't even have the slightest clue or idea what the bible actually does teaches or Confirm's.
There are things in the bible that are as plain as the nose on ones face.
In your speaking about the Trinity. Just how much more can Christ Jesus be about it, Than when he was speaking to the disciples, saying unto them "Go you therefore, teach all nation's, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" Matthew 28:19.
"For in him ( Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" Colossians 2:9.
There you have the Trinity, Father,Son,Holy Spirit.
How much more can that be plain as the nose on ones face.
So the requirement for salvation is to be baptized in the Father and Son and the Holy Spirit. For salvation.
Jesus in the speaking to the disciples saying unto them "If you had known me, you should have known my Father also,
and from here forth, you know him, and have seen him" John 14:7.
Note Jesus said ( and have seen him)
All because Jesus is God the Father.
How much more plainly does Jesus have to be, that it's as plain as the nose on ones face.
Here's a question for anyone, In the book of John 14:28---"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I "
How is the Father greater than Jesus,
If Jesus is God the Father, how exactly does this work?
It's as plain as the nose on ones face.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Several months ago after almost a three-year soul-searching after being pretty much agnostic, but not atheistic, for many years. Long story of how I came back, and thanks so much for the "Congrads".