What is wrong with being a white nationalist ?

shmogie · Oct 31, 2018

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Orwell opposed Stalin's authoritarianism, but he was a socialist who thought highly of Trotsky. OTOH, here's what he had to say about nationalism:

"Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."

"All nationalists have the power of not seeing resemblances between similar sets of facts. A British Tory will defend self-determination in Europe and oppose it in India with no feeling of inconsistency. Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage — torture, the use of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians — which does not change its moral colour when it is committed by 'our' side . . . The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

I didn't quote Orwell show a socialists view of the socialist adulteration of the language, I quoted him to show the purpose of socialists adulterating the language.

shmogie · Oct 31, 2018

columbus said:
I read a lot of your posts, but I might have missed one.
Where did you criticize your fellow White nationalist, Donald Trump, for characterizing Mexicans as "murderers and drug dealers"? He did that a great deal during his campaign.
My recollection is that you referred to Trump as a "straight shooter", who told it like it is. I could be wrong, but I don't believe that I am.
Tom

I think your memory is incorrect. Trump can be a buffoon who says what he means poorly, and simply says stupid things .

If I were to take the time to call out politicians for saying stupid things, I would do nothing else, occupying a lot of that time on our immediate past president.

I am not in control of what they say or do, and for me idiocy is expected from politicians., I do control what I think, say, or do.

I believe Trump has brought about some policies and made appointments I support.

Nice try at linking me with his statements, guilt by innuendo, :"do you still beat your wife ?"

It failed

shmogie · Oct 31, 2018

Father Heathen said:
They made mountains out of Obama's mole hills, and then made mole hills out if Trump's mountains.

Molehills like a stagnant economy, molehills like running up the national debt in 8 years more than all of the previous presidents combined, molehills like high unemployment, and low GDP, and poor military preparedness, and leading from behind, and strategic do nothing, and the creating a wider racial divide, and denying American exceptionalism, yet just molehills. As president he was a pitiful lackluster dud. He sure could talk a good game though.

oldbadger · Oct 31, 2018

shmogie said:
Nations, since the dawn of civilization, have been the way humanity has governed itself. It is the best way. Nationalism, supporting ones nation, is perfectly innocuous.

Ha ha!
Questions!
In your 'White Nationalist Nation', will Gays get the vote? Will Blacks get the vote? etc?

And what Criminal Code will you be using? Will you be using some Old Testament laws (and sentences) for actions such as homosexuality and adultery?

I suspect that your 'White Nationlist' country would be a fundie extremist Christian theocracy.

Epic Beard Man · Oct 31, 2018

9-10ths_Penguin said:
My money's on a different explanation: that he really is a white nationalist with all the negatives that this entails, but he thinks that if he deconstructs the term, he won't seem as bad.

Well my optimism started in the beginning of this thread but as I kept reading the thread I think you're right

shmogie · Oct 31, 2018

oldbadger said:
Ha ha!
Questions!
In your 'White Nationalist Nation', will Gays get the vote? Will Blacks get the vote? etc?

And what Criminal Code will you be using? Will you be using some Old Testament laws (and sentences) for actions such as homosexuality and adultery?

I suspect that your 'White Nationlist' country would be a fundie extremist Christian theocracy.

I am an American, my nation is governed by a Constitution of rights for all, religion is a matter of conscience not law.

You suspect wrong, I suspect you are ignorant and brainwashed by British socialist indoctrination, you are unable to distinguish logical use of the language from bull**** propaganda. You have been trained to believe that a white person who believes in nations, especially his own, a white nationalist, is a white racist, a white supremist, a white bigot, a white theocrat, a hater of all races and religions but his own. Then you have the temerity of being all those people, you are blind to simplicity of language. You are too lazy to use the accurate terms. The issue is linguistic, not political or theological.

Amazing that such a simple concept is so darn difficult for you to grasp.

shmogie · Oct 31, 2018

Epic Beard Man said:
Well my optimism started in the beginning of this thread but as I read the thread I think you're right

You both want something so badly to be so, you imagine it is. Anyone who doesn´t EXACTLY fit your your criteria of acceptance is rejected. The issue is linguistic. Do either of you know what the word means ?

I assume, only an assumption, that you believe white people are no more inherently evil than anyone else. I assume then that you believe that someone who supports the sovereignty of their country isn´t evil. With me so far ?
So then, a white person who believes in national sovereignty is a white nationalist.

My whole point is to show how language is co opted to say what it does not literally mean.

Because of that, and because I obviously don´t share some of your political views and views of free speech, you then use the right term, for the wrong reasons, to demonize me.

A perfect example of my point. There are many others, some you will appreciate, racoons are sometimes called coons, Black people are not racoons, but some call them coons as a derogatory term. Not what the pure language means. Homosexuals are not pieces of wood to start fires, but they are called faggots for the same reason.

Get it ? I wonder.

Epic Beard Man · Oct 31, 2018

shmogie said:
So, I suggest my people have probably been here longer than yours, you leave.

If you're white, and you live in the United States, and you trace your lineage in Europe you're not indigenous to the United states therefore this was not your ancestral homeland, but most conscious black people who know history are full aware of $5 Native Americans however (if you're unfamiliar with $5 Native Americans you may want to read up on it).

shmogie said:
Let me get this straight, to you a white person is white, and a nationalist is a nationalist, but a white nationalist is a racist, therefore a black nationalist by your logic is a racist.

No, this is the stupid logic you came up with by assuming. As a person of science and skepticism, a white person is someone who is a social construct based on the early European categorization of different human groups. Because of delusional stereotypes and prejudice based on early interactions due to technological advancements as well as disadvantages early Europeans came up with delusional social constructs based on early interactions with native people thus is the result of extravagant pictures. as far as white nationalism in the United States it has a history that has bred the klu klux klan, skin heads, Aryan nation etc. White Nationalism historically and presently in the United States is not defined as you have defined it earlier. But as I've sat back and watched it is infinitely clear that other Caucasians don't think like you regarding white Nationalism.

shmogie said:
We didn't have safe spaces, and get hurt feelings and whimper and cry.

I tell you what, come down here on Exposition and MLK or Vermont in California near USC my school, and proclaim to the people down here that you're a white nationalist. Either two things are going to happen you're going to get robbed and beat up by the local gang, or get beat up by the "white fraternities" or the Hispanic gang members may take your clothes. Let's see if you'll talk about safe spaces then. You see, down here unlike the southern states, we don't have laws where you can be a coward and carry concealed guns, that's illegal, thanks to the racist Caucasian snowflakes who feared that the Black Panthers having assault weapons was a problem at the capital in Sacramento. as you can see if we have the same weapons its scary.

shmogie said:
So, I couldn't care less what the race unions would think, I would happily shout back at them what numbnskulls they are on this issue.

Good for you, but I guarantee you, you couldn't be no white nationalist down here (in California) and especially if you had racial prejudices in California and not get your a** whipped. I guarantee if you brought your old a*** down here talking that white nationalism you'd get beat up it's just facts its just what racist whites have solidified in the minds of people of color down here. I'm just saying.

shmogie said:
Perhaps the white students union would understand. Oh wait, white student unions don't exist, because that and they would be racist.

White people needing student unions? I guess having centuries of racism, being ahead of the social and financial curve having educational institutions designated for Whites, Jim Crow, media, and all that benefits you and you need a student union?

Let Chris rock tell you...moral of the story as much of a snowflake you want to present yourself to be, you wouldn't want to be a rich black man for sure:

roger1440 · Oct 31, 2018

The United States is my native country. I was born here. Therefore I’m a native American, true or false?

Curious George · Oct 31, 2018

roger1440 said:
The United States is my native country. I was born here. Therefore I’m a native American, true or false?

Good analogy.

roger1440 · Oct 31, 2018

shmogie said:
There you have it. You have smacked the nail right on the head. As the saying goes, it is what it is. A white supremacist is a white supremacist, a white racist is a white racist. If you conflate either into white nationalist you are abusing the language and lying.

How about stand on the corner in an intercity black ghetto in the middle of the night wearing a sign saying “I’m a white nationalist”. Do me a favor; let me know how it works out for you. It reminds me of this scene from “Die Hard: With a Vengeance” (1995).

shmogie · Oct 31, 2018

Epic Beard Man said:
If you're white, and you live in the United States, and you trace your lineage in Europe you're not indigenous to the United states therefore this was not your ancestral homeland, but most conscious black people who know history are full aware of $5 Native Americans however (if you're unfamiliar with $5 Native Americans you may want to read up on it).

No, this is the stupid logic you came up with by assuming. As a person of science and skepticism, a white person is someone who is a social construct based on the early European categorization of different human groups. Because of delusional stereotypes and prejudice based on early interactions due to technological advancements as well as disadvantages early Europeans came up with delusional social constructs based on early interactions with native people thus is the result of extravagant pictures. as far as white nationalism in the United States it has a history that has bred the klu klux klan, skin heads, Aryan nation etc. White Nationalism historically and presently in the United States is not defined as you have defined it earlier. But as I've sat back and watched it is infinitely clear that other Caucasians don't think like you regarding white Nationalism.

A white person is someone who comes from European ancestry, usually with the physical attributes of Europeans. Narrow noses for breathing colder air that holds more oxygen, lighter skin because of a cooler environment and weaker sun. A black person, with African ancestry from a much warmer, wetter environment, has different physical attributes attributes. It is all based upon environmental adaption, nothing more. There are many variations in people since we all share the exact same genome and came from the exact same genetic parents.

I find it interesting that you take a simple position based upon terminology and cannot seem to separate that from your social constructs. What others think, including you, about the social aspects of the matter, is irrelevant to me, I simply am giving my view of the proper, and adulterated use of the language.

Wow, you are talking smack to me, love it. As a 25 year law enforcement officer not more than 65 miles from USC I have heard these terrifying pronouncements many times, most before you were born. Yawn.

I find it interesting that you indirectly address the gun laws of California. In my career, I rarely removed a gun for cause from someone who had a legal right to have it. Most armed thugs have no legal right to have the gun they have. obviously, all the gun laws in California mean nothing to crooks, they laugh at them. I have seen law abiding citizens shot and maimed or shot and killed by the thugs. The law abiding citizen has no firearm, and are sheep to the slaughter. Inner city innocent law abiding citizens are at a greater risk from the gangster thugs. They can´t even defend their homes.

Your racist diatribe about people in the south is just that, ranting.

I now live in a state where, the only permit required to carry a firearm open or concealed is the second amendment to the Constitution. This applies to everyone, everyone in my rural town which is half Hispanic, everyone in Phoenix including itś black neighborhoods, everyone, has the right to defend themselves. We are ALL on a level playing field.

Does a white students union offend you ? Why ? Do all colors of the rainbow have the right to petition the administration from a racial perspective, but white ? Are white students free of problems related to their race, yet every other race has them ? What a crock.

You apparently cannot see much beyond we verses them. A simple opinion regarding the use of words. has been propelled by you and another first into condemnation of me and essentially name calling, with no provocation other than you don´t like my ancestry. I simply brought it up to certify that I was truly white re the term in question.

You and your cohort then expanded the discussion of a term, to a sweeping commentary on the ills of society, a social commentary., with all the indictments you consider necessary, with, of course, the innuendoś directed at me. Like a red flag before a bull, or Pavlovś dogs, you jump to the conditioned response for a term, without even considering the etymologoical point I was trying to make.

One of my degrees is in sociology, if I wanted to discuss it I would, and could. I would suggest that you and I would agree on a number of points. I have no interest in discussing it here, nor do need to be crucified by wrongheadedness based on two words. You want a sociological discussion on the ills of American society based on race, start one.

Young man, you have a lot to learn, we all did at your age, you are carrying a lot of baggage many of us didn´t have forced upon us. I understand that, much more than you think. Perhaps when you get to graduate school ( if you aren´t there already) you will be a little more mellow. I am trying to take all these things into consideration, but your chosen tactics and purposeful wrong sightedness is really starting to **** me off.

TheBannerofHomuraAkemi · Oct 31, 2018

shmogie said:
I am a white nationalist. oooooooh !
My DNA is 90% English,, the rest Scandinavian. I can trace my ancestry back to England of the 1600's. I have traced two sets of distant grandparents arriving in America in 1781 and the early 1840's. ergo. I am white. I am proud of my ancestry, therefore I am a proud white man.

I am a nationalist. I believe in sovereign nations, especially my own. I do not believe in globalism or open borders.

I am a white nationalist.

Like it has happened many times in the past, the left has co opted a simple, innocuous term, demonized it, and hurls it willy nilly at those it doesn't like. it has become a leftist weapon, manipulated to mean, whit it doesn't mean.

If one reads Orwell's 1984, you will learn that one of Big Brothers tactics in controlling the people is to manipulate and change the language.

Lenin, Trotsky and Alinsky tell us that in fomenting revolution, or at least social unrest, changing and redefining language is an essential tool, the broader the redefinition, the more it divides, the greater it's use to the cause. Saying neo nazi's, or white supremacists simply is not broad enough, Coupling white, the lefts bogeyman race, with nationalist, against world government, the goal, divides so much better, condemns more, creates more divisiveness.

It is all an incremental campaign to pollute and redefine language for a specific purpose, and it isn't a good purpose , it is evil.

I am a white nationalist, I consider Jews the chosen of God,, my best friend of 50 years is Hispanic, I have never expelled or beaten up any of my Black Christian brothers and sisters in my Church. The police department I headed had an extremely high number of female officers, and almost 50% of the officers were minorities, in a community that was 85% white.

If you buy into the bastardization of the language by the left, NONE of these things could be true of me, a white nationalist.

Until I see more examples of you fighting back against the bad White nationalist I can't see you being a good white nationalist. And hearing that your a police office makes me even more distrustful of you.

To be honest you sound just like my dad, who puts on a good face, but once he gets angry or drunk you see the racism come out.

Sammaiel · Oct 31, 2018

Right and wrong are subjective. As italian, I envy your freedom of speech... here you would not be allowed to express your position so freely ( and in my opinion, that's no good ).

shmogie · Oct 31, 2018

TheBannerofHomuraAkemi said:
Until I see more examples of you fighting back against the bad White nationalist I can't see you being a good white nationalist. And hearing that your a police office makes me even more distrustful of you.

To be honest you sound just like my dad, who puts on a good face, but once he gets angry or drunk you see the racism come out.

Your father sounds like a white racist. He might be a white nationalist as well they aren´t mutually exclusive. A white person who is a nationalist ( supports national sovereignty) isn´t a defacto racist. Interesting, the liberals tell us it is wrong to judge people by group identity, and they are right. Can you spell hypocrite ?

Father Heathen · Nov 1, 2018

Sammaiel said:
Right and wrong are subjective. As italian, I envy your freedom of speech... here you would not be allowed to express your position so freely ( and in my opinion, that's no good ).

Although I strongly disagree with Shmogie's views, I am very glad that he has the right to express them.

lewisnotmiller · Nov 1, 2018

shmogie said:
I am a white nationalist. oooooooh !
My DNA is 90% English,, the rest Scandinavian. I can trace my ancestry back to England of the 1600's. I have traced two sets of distant grandparents arriving in America in 1781 and the early 1840's. ergo. I am white. I am proud of my ancestry, therefore I am a proud white man.

I am a nationalist. I believe in sovereign nations, especially my own. I do not believe in globalism or open borders.

I am a white nationalist.

Like it has happened many times in the past, the left has co opted a simple, innocuous term, demonized it, and hurls it willy nilly at those it doesn't like. it has become a leftist weapon, manipulated to mean, whit it doesn't mean.

If one reads Orwell's 1984, you will learn that one of Big Brothers tactics in controlling the people is to manipulate and change the language.

Lenin, Trotsky and Alinsky tell us that in fomenting revolution, or at least social unrest, changing and redefining language is an essential tool, the broader the redefinition, the more it divides, the greater it's use to the cause. Saying neo nazi's, or white supremacists simply is not broad enough, Coupling white, the lefts bogeyman race, with nationalist, against world government, the goal, divides so much better, condemns more, creates more divisiveness.

It is all an incremental campaign to pollute and redefine language for a specific purpose, and it isn't a good purpose , it is evil.

I am a white nationalist, I consider Jews the chosen of God,, my best friend of 50 years is Hispanic, I have never expelled or beaten up any of my Black Christian brothers and sisters in my Church. The police department I headed had an extremely high number of female officers, and almost 50% of the officers were minorities, in a community that was 85% white.

If you buy into the bastardization of the language by the left, NONE of these things could be true of me, a white nationalist.

You're a nationalist who is white. If you don't understand how calling yourself a white nationalist changes that, you shouldn't use the label.

But in simple terms, what does heing white have to do with your nationalism?

oldbadger · Nov 1, 2018

shmogie said:
I am an American, my nation is governed by a Constitution of rights for all, religion is a matter of conscience not law.

You suspect wrong, I suspect you are ignorant and brainwashed by British socialist indoctrination, you are unable to distinguish logical use of the language from bull**** propaganda. You have been trained to believe that a white person who believes in nations, especially his own, a white nationalist, is a white racist, a white supremist, a white bigot, a white theocrat, a hater of all races and religions but his own. Then you have the temerity of being all those people, you are blind to simplicity of language. You are too lazy to use the accurate terms. The issue is linguistic, not political or theological.

Amazing that such a simple concept is so darn difficult for you to grasp.

Yeah........

So your idea of 'I'm a White Nationalist!' is just an innocuous little guy needing no more than some attention?

He he!

..... and as soon as somebody asks whether your objective would be a White Christian Nation, the embodiment of racism, nationalism and religious extremism you demand that it's nothing like that. OK, No probs...... so you're just a harmless little white guy what likes the sound of his voice..... that's ok, then.

Carry on calling out.

shmogie · Nov 1, 2018

oldbadger said:
Yeah........
So your idea of 'I'm a White Nationalist!' is just an innocuous little guy needing no more than some attention?

He he!

..... and as soon as somebody asks whether your objective would be a White Christian Nation, the embodiment of racism, nationalism and religious extremism you demand that it's nothing like that. OK, No probs...... so you're just a harmless little white guy what likes the sound of his voice..... that's ok, then.

Carry on calling out.

As I suspected,a political racist. You are Jewish, right ? You live in Britain, right ? I understand your missing the point. Culturally, and politically, you see the term white nationalist as a racist term, I get it.

Of course you epitomize my whole point. I am proud of my English heritage, you should be of yours, as I am sure my Black friend in this forum is proud of his. Pride in heritage doesn't make one a racist.

Being a nationalist, one who believes in the sovereignty of nations, especially his own, doesn't make one a racist.

In a thread that I began hoping for a discussion on words, and their adulteration for political and social convenience, a fascinating unexpected dynamic arose. Instead of discussing the words, the words as manipulated are so powerful, the discussion became about me. By identifying myself by what the term literally means and explaining this means, the visceral conditioning simply could not grasp the point, the intellectual issue.I used the term, the conditioning kicked in, and I was personally attacked, and unwarranted vile accusations were the result.

Your culture has trained you so well, that you for a short while, could not simply address the language issues, but brushed it off vitriol, Sort of like trying to explain to a rabid anti Semite the immorality and lack of logic in his belief and being called a lover of dirty rotten Jews.

You even extended the the personal attack to religion, something I never brought up. Showing your ignorance of fundamental Christian belief ( yes,fundamental).and whether you know it or not, accused me of being hypocrite, which I am not.

Bottom line, without reasoning, your conditioning gives you permission to use nazi tactics to attack a person simply trying to initiate a conversation on the use of words.

Sort of like the nazi;'s who murdered Dietrich Bonhoffer because he wanted to initiate a conversation about the nazi political system from a Christian perspective.

You are a poster boy for the manipulation of language for political and hate purposes.

Thank you ! You are a perfect example of my point.

9-10ths_Penguin · Nov 1, 2018

shmogie said:
Nations, since the dawn of civilization, have been the way humanity has governed itself. It is the best way. Nationalism, supporting ones nation, is perfectly innocuous.

Nationalism is not just "supporting one's nation."

Definition of nationalism

1: loyalty and devotion to a nationespecially : a sense of national consciousness (see CONSCIOUSNESS sense 1c) exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

Intense nationalism was one of the causes of the war.

2: a nationalist movement or governmentopposing nationalisms

Definition of NATIONALISM

Nationalism implies a belief in the supremacy of one's nation over all others and the subjugation or denigration of other nations or cultures.

When nationalism uses a sense of "nation" drawn along lines of race (e.g. in "white nationalism"), it implies a belief in the superiority of one race over all others.

IOW, "white nationalism" is a not-very-effective euphemism for white supremacy.

What is wrong with being a white nationalist ?

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