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The Biblical God easily supports Pro-choice by example.

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
New Research Shows Most Human Pregnancies End in Miscarriage

The medical term for miscarriages is also called spontaneous abortion.

This easily makes an argument for God as being the top abortionist in the world. Pro-choice is essentially biblical as exemplified by God himself.

If God is pro-choice, then why are so many Christians so hard on people who in turn support pro-choice?
the question properly framed is "why cant i see other perspectives?.

Now to answer your dilema is not easy. Because anything that doesnt fit that single perspective is disorienting.
 

Woberts

The Perfumed Seneschal
Christian opposition to abortion started out as a political movement to garner votes. Today, they have deluded themselves into believing it was always in their scripture.
 

Earthling

David Henson
the question properly framed is "why cant i see other perspectives?.

Now to answer your dilema is not easy. Because anything that doesnt fit that single perspective is disorienting.

Well, that takes all of the fun out of it.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
New Research Shows Most Human Pregnancies End in Miscarriage

The medical term for miscarriages is also called spontaneous abortion.

This easily makes an argument for God as being the top abortionist in the world. Pro-choice is essentially biblical as exemplified by God himself.

If God is pro-choice, then why are so many Christians so hard on people who in turn support pro-choice?
Is it wise to compare ourselves to God? To ask if God does it; why can't we? Are we responsible enough to decide who lives?

On the topic of responsibility ... People don't like the consequences of their promiscuous choices. It's destructive and rebellious. People destroying something because they won't be held responsible.

 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
This easily makes an argument for God as being the top abortionist in the world.
This is just solid evidence that there is no God who cares about human beings.

Therefore, if anybody is going to care about us we must do it for each other.
Tom
 

Earthling

David Henson
Christian opposition to abortion started out as a political movement to garner votes. Today, they have deluded themselves into believing it was always in their scripture.

Qui proficit in literis et deficit in moribus, plus deficit quam proficit [Latin] - He who moves forward in science and moves back in moral, goes more back than forward

Would you have us believe that Exodus 21:22-23 would imply that abortion is not murder and that the fetus is not considered a human life. This is not in harmony with scripture and in fact is a gross misunderstanding on your part. The only reason that I can see for this line of thinking is that the King James Version uses the word depart. The fruit of the mother's womb departs from her. What this means is that she gave birth with no harm to the child.

There was a struggle and the woman was injured but this did not result in harm of the unborn child. In this case the husband would present his case to the judges and they would decide upon a fine for the man having caused the injury. If, on the other hand, the child would have been stillborn the penalty would have been death. Soul for soul or life for life.

Now if one were reading the Revised Standard version I could understand the confusion, at Exodus 21:22-23 (RSV) it is seemingly implied that even if there were harm resulting in a miscarriage there would be a fine, but only if the woman were killed would there be a death penalty. It is likely that this and translations with a similar reading were influenced by Flavius Josephus.

Professor William Whiston, who translated Josephus' writings said that when Josephus paraphrased Exodus 21:22-23 saying: "He that kicks a woman with child, so that the woman miscarry, let him pay a fine in money, as the judges shall determine, as having diminished the multitude [of the nation] by the destruction of what was in her womb; and let money also be given the woman's husband by him that kicked her; but if she die of the stroke, let him also be put to death, the law judging it equitable that life should go for life." was actually reflecting "the exposition of the Pharisees in the days of Josephus." (Antiquities of the Jews, Book IV, Chapter viii, paragraph 33, footnote)

The Septuagint, which oddly enough Josephus almost always used, has a slightly different opinion. It reads: "If two men strive and smite a woman with child, and her child be born imperfectly formed [or, "she miscarry of an embryo"], he shall be forced to pay a penalty." In other words if the aborted fetus was too young to have developed a fine should be paid but if the fetus was perfectly formed the penalty would be death. (Septuagint translation by Sir L.L. Brenton and Charles Thomson)
The real question here though, is what does the literal Hebrew actually say. Here is just that, from Dr. G. R. Berry's Hebrew-English interlinear. It reads from right to left.

strike they and ,men contend when And
,child her forth goes and ,pregnant woman a
,fined be shall he surely ;injury is not and
of husband the him upon put may as
.judges the with give shall he and ,woman the
soul give shalt thou (and) ,is injury if And
,soul for

The important thing to realize in translation is that the application here of injury does not limit itself to the mother, and The Hebrew word for "injury" here ("harm" RSV, "mischief" Authorized) is ason. The lexicon by William Holladay rightly points out that ason means "mortal accident." This can be seen more clearly by three other places where ason is used. Genesis 42:4, Genesis 42:38; Genesis 44:29. So a more accurate translation would render the term ason as "fatal accident" rather than "harm" or "mischief" in order to allow the reader to understand what was actually being said.

We know that this isn't applied to the mother exclusively because, as the respected commentary by C. F. Keil and F. Delitzsch says, the fine would have been sufficient only if "no injury [fatal accident] was done either to the woman or the child that was born . . . . The omission of [the Hebrew] lah, meaning 'to her,' also, apparently renders it impracticable to refer the words to injury done to the woman alone."

If the original Hebrew had included the word lah, which means "to her" at Genesis 21:22-23 we could have assumed that the injury must be applied only to the mother. Instead it applies both to the unborn child and the mother.

Skeptics will often make the ridiculous assumption that the Bible places no value upon fetuses or infants under a month old and that it doesn't see fetuses or infants under a month old as persons. They base this upon Leviticus 27:6 and Numbers 3:15-16.

Leviticus 27:6 addresses those people who at that time would pay a vow of money to God. To suggest that this was a measure of value for the life of the person is nonsense. Is the suggestion that until a child is five years old, from conception until that time, it is acceptable to destroy them? The chapter goes on to give a value for other age groups, does this mean that for a price you could destroy - murder - those people? This is nonsense.

Numbers 3:15-16 is similar in that it is referring to a census being taken for the Levites. The Levites were of course going to be special, the first fruit of Israelites. To say that those under a month old were not people because they were not included in the census would be the same as saying a person of various ages thereafter were only people worth various monies that were paid, and it seems somewhat shortsighted coming from a skeptic who supports an abortion of convenience if a fetus is under a certain age because eventually the fetus, like the child under a month old would mature. You wouldn't pluck a seed from the ground just because it hadn't matured into a fruit bearing tree would you? Unless you just didn't want to be bothered with the tree.

The conclusion is often that God sometimes approves of killing fetuses and this, it seems, must be grounds for supporting abortion. When, however, they give Numbers 31:15-17 as reason for this they gloss over the reason for the Israelites doing so and they also fail to appreciate that women, men and children were being destroyed as well. The Bible isn't saying that it is acceptable to kill men, women, children and fetuses; it is saying that in this particular case they needed to be destroyed due to the fact that they had caused the Israelites to worship false gods. (Numbers 25:1-3)

Likewise, when Israel became unfaithful they were no longer given favor by God, compare Exodus 23:26 with Hosea 9:14-16; Numbers 5:21-22, Numbers 5:27-28; 2 Samuel 12:14; Genesis 38:24.

What this says is that God who created life can take it away either through the people of Moses' time or through his own will; not that we are given the right to do so ourselves through his word. So the Bible gives no support of abortion.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
This easily makes an argument for God as being the top abortionist in the world. Pro-choice is essentially biblical as exemplified by God himself.

This is assuming that it's God actively doing the aborting. It's entirely possible that many things that are attributed to direct action by God are just the laws of nature he laid down playing out. Like the butterfly effect. God doesn't have to pluck every hair that falls out of someone's head for a person to go bald.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Is it wise to compare ourselves to God? To ask if God does it; why can't we? Are we responsible enough to decide who lives?
As long as we continue to anthropomorphize god, then it's fair to do so.
On the topic of responsibility ... People don't like the consequences of their promiscuous choices. It's destructive and rebellious. People destroying something because they won't be held responsible.

Do you have any solid studies or statistics that suggest that the majority of abortions are the result of promiscuous behavior and a failure to use contraceptives? But even if that were true, how could someone be trusted to be a fit mother, especially when forced to do so begrudgingly, when they couldn't be trusted to use a form birth control? If anything is destructive and irresponsible, it's using a child as a form of punishment.
 
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