If there is the devil, why did God create him?

Real Sorceror · Sep 18, 2006

Paraprakrti said:
But God, having all and absolute knowledge, knew that Lucifer would fall. So how do you answer that?

Easy. God has absolute knowledge of everything that can be known. The future cannot be known. it doesn't exist. At best it is fluid and not set in stone.

Real Sorceror · Sep 18, 2006

Paraprakrti said:
Relative time is defined by material activities. God existed before there was a material world and therefore is above relative time. Now, we can say that there is absolute time and that is God's eternal time. But we also have information that God is all-knowing. Being in absolute time, God knows all absolute. He is not confined to relative time - past, present or future.

Relative time is irrelevent. Even if God and I measure time in different units, the same amount of time is still passing. Time is absolute. Even though God existed before everyhting else, time was still passing. God's thoughts and actions could be placed in cronological order.

I am also eternal, but I am currently conditioned by the material world. Therefore I do not know the future. Matter of fact, I hardly know the past or the present. So what I didn't specify in my last post was that God is both eternal and infallible - He never falls into material conditioning.

As I said, God's thoughts and actions could be placed in cronological order(even if He is the only one capable of doing so). The only way to know the future is to be in complete contol of all outside factors. God is not in complete control of you and I becuase He chooses not to be. Therefore, we are making decisions that God has not decided Himself, and He is no longer controlling all factors. There are a billion other things that He chooses not to control. Like the weather for example.

Tiberius · Sep 18, 2006

Real Sorceror said:
Relative time is irrelevent. Even if God and I measure time in different units, the same amount of time is still passing. Time is absolute. Even though God existed before everyhting else, time was still passing. God's thoughts and actions could be placed in cronological order.

How can that be? Time is a dimension of our universe. Before the universe existed, time did not exist.

As I said, God's thoughts and actions could be placed in cronological order(even if He is the only one capable of doing so). The only way to know the future is to be in complete contol of all outside factors. God is not in complete control of you and I becuase He chooses not to be. Therefore, we are making decisions that God has not decided Himself, and He is no longer controlling all factors. There are a billion other things that He chooses not to control. Like the weather for example.

I really don't understand what you are saying. How can you say that God is outside time (as you seem to be saying here), and yet say that God is limited by time, as when you say that God can't know the future?

may · Sep 19, 2006

Tiberius said:
And how did the Snake slander God in the Garden of Eden?

by telling Eve lies about God, the serpent implied that God was telling lies to eve. God said she would die if she eat the fruit and the serpent said no you wont. yes the serpent is the father of the lie,
because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]. John 8;44 ..yes when satan started his rebellion against God , he became the father of the lie. telling lies about people is slander

Real Sorceror · Sep 19, 2006

Tiberius said:
How can that be? Time is a dimension of our universe. Before the universe existed, time did not exist.

Can't you measure time by the passing of events? I'm sure there was a specific order in which God made things. The way you describe it, it would seem that God is doing everything at once.

I really don't understand what you are saying. How can you say that God is outside time (as you seem to be saying here), and yet say that God is limited by time, as when you say that God can't know the future?

You're assuming that the future is part of time. "Future" is just a word to describe a concept. In order to know what will happen next, you would have to narrow down the infinite possible combinations of events into a single possible outcome. Since God has chosen not to do this, He cannot know for a fact what will happen. He might have a really good idea, and even be right much of the time, but thats still not knowing the future.

Tiberius · Sep 20, 2006

may said:
by telling Eve lies about God, the serpent implied that God was telling lies to eve. God said she would die if she eat the fruit and the serpent said no you wont. yes the serpent is the father of the lie,
because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]. John 8;44 ..yes when satan started his rebellion against God , he became the father of the lie. telling lies about people is slander

God said, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:17.

Did Adam and Eve die on the day that they ate the fruit? The fact that Adam lived another 930 years kinda hints at NO.

So God said they'd die on the day they ate the fruit, and adam lives another 930 years or so. So you tell me - Was God telling the truth when he said, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Real Sorceror · Sep 20, 2006

Tiberius said:
God said, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:17.

Did Adam and Eve die on the day that they ate the fruit? The fact that Adam lived another 930 years kinda hints at NO.

So God said they'd die on the day they ate the fruit, and adam lives another 930 years or so. So you tell me - Was God telling the truth when he said, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Its one of those instances where God's "day" is equal to a thousand years. Therefore, Adam died within the day (he lived just short of a thousand).

Tiberius · Sep 20, 2006

Real Sorceror said:
Its one of those instances where God's "day" is equal to a thousand years. Therefore, Adam died within the day (he lived just short of a thousand).

Nice idea, but do you have any independant evidence to support this, or are you just coming up with an explanation to match what you have already decided?

Real Sorceror · Sep 20, 2006

Tiberius said:
Nice idea, but do you have any independant evidence to support this, or are you just coming up with an explanation to match what you have already decided?

No, I'm just giving the usual Christian response. I'm not sure where they get that idea from, I think its a verse that says something like "and a 1,000 years is like a day unto God". Something like that. I don't believe in Genesis, so it doesn't really matter to me.

logician · Sep 20, 2006

"God is not in complete control of you and I becuase He chooses not to be."

How can anyone presume to know the mind of a supposed god. If there is a god, (which I believe there isn't), it would be completely beyond our comprehension to understand.

jazzalta · Sep 20, 2006

Not wanting to wade through all the previous pages, this question about God creating evil is just another condraction occuring in the holy book. Compare this passage with Amos 3:6 and 1 John 4:8.

Real Sorceror · Sep 21, 2006

wanderer085 said:
"God is not in complete control of you and I becuase He chooses not to be."

How can anyone presume to know the mind of a supposed god. If there is a god, (which I believe there isn't), it would be completely beyond our comprehension to understand.

I'm sure we can understand Him at least superficially. He wouldn't be completely beyond all comprehension and understanding.

Tiberius · Sep 21, 2006

He certainly appears to be in this matter.

Real Sorceror · Sep 21, 2006

Tiberius said:
He certainly appears to be in this matter.

Which matter? The one about the Devil? I thought we had more or less come to an agreement on that?

Evandr2 · Sep 21, 2006

Tiberius said:
God said, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:17.

Did Adam and Eve die on the day that they ate the fruit? The fact that Adam lived another 930 years kinda hints at NO.

So God said they'd die on the day they ate the fruit, and adam lives another 930 years or so. So you tell me - Was God telling the truth when he said, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Try to remember that in the Bible, reference is made to more than one type of death. There is the death of the body, ashes to ashes and dust to dust so to speak and then there is the death of the spirit which is separation from the presence of God.

In short, by partaking of the forbidden fruit Adam and Eve subjected themselves to not one but two different forms of death.

The Lord never said that they would drop dead as to the body on the spot but He did imply that they would become subject to the death of the body. In Adams case it took 930 years but it did happen. The resurrection of Jesus has conquered this type of death and all mankind, every one bar none, will be resurrected in their own due time

As to the second death or the death of the spirit, which is the denial of the presence of the Father for all eternity, only those who, in the final analysis, have chosen not to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ will so suffer. Lucifer is a powerful adversary and sad it is that there are a great many who will fall into that situation.

Before they were cast out Adam and Eve walked and talked freely with God. There is evidence to support the idea that their memory of their casual relationship with God was veiled after they were cast out.

Before they partook of the forbidden fruit Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong and so forth so justice could have no claim on them.

Getting cast out of the garden of Eden was a consequence of their action that they understood would happen. Such understanding did not require a knowledge of good and evil. Getting cast out could not have been a punishment for they had not wherewith to choose sin and therefore were not worthy of the execution of judgment. They could not have seen it as a punishment for they knew nothing of sin and the consequences thereof so getting cast out was a choice they made that they could fulfill God's commandment to be fruitful and replenish the earth. Fact is, they had no idea where getting cast out would land them.

While in the garden of Eden they were immortal and until they were cast out of the garden they had no children. If Lucifer had not set the ball rolling this would have been a condition of stalemate.

By partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they became as God knowing good and evil - of this point Lucifer did not lie. Lucifer understood that a stalemate would have prevented him from leading the other of God's children (that would be us)down to everlasting torment for they would never be placed in a position wherein they could be tempted by him.

God's plan was perfect in its design, equity, righteousness, implementation and execution even to the point of incorporating Lucifers unwitting cooperation.

Vandr

logician · Sep 21, 2006

"I'm sure we can understand Him at least superficially. He wouldn't be completely beyond all comprehension and understanding."

An entity that created the multiverse would be past understanding, sort of like an ant trying to understand homo sapiens.

Genna · Sep 21, 2006

Sort of like an ant trying to understand homo sapiens? God is not human, human beings may not be able to have ants understand them since they are limited in their knowledge. But I'm quite sure that a supreme being such as God whose knowledge is unfathomable has the capacity to reveal himself to humans.

Real Sorceror · Sep 21, 2006

Genna said:
Sort of like an ant trying to understand homo sapiens? God is not human, human beings may not be able to have ants understand them since they are limited in their knowledge. But I'm quite sure that a supreme being such as God whose knowledge is unfathomable has the capacity to reveal himself to humans.

Precisely.:yes:
God can choose to reveal Himself in such a way that we can understand at least parts and pieces of Him.

Real Sorceror · Sep 21, 2006

Double Post!!

logician · Sep 21, 2006

"God whose knowledge is unfathomable has the capacity to reveal himself to humans."

Then why hasn't it?

If there is the devil, why did God create him?

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