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Problems with the Trinity

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The bible doesn't support and either, or scenario. Why can't some see the trinity and others cannot as fine?

There different perspectives on the Trinity, but than again it is not the dogma of the Trinity as believed in the traditional Christian churches.

...because neither view depreciates Who christ is and his Relationship with his father. What exact brings out the rudeness in you because someone else doesn't relate to Christ the same as you do?

The traditional Christian churches do not recognize alternate views of the Trinity as valid.

Do your relation connection need to be the same as your peer to experience Christ love?

Is Christ going to punish you for calling him an intermediary to god or god himself?

Is Christ love based on whether you call him god or the son of God?

What exactly is the problem???

The problem is specific dogma defining God versus a conceptual view of God's relationship to God from the human perspective.

The Baha'i Faith: Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 113-115

Some Answered Questions by Abdu'l-Baha.

Question.—What is the meaning of the Trinity, of the Three Persons in One?

Answer.—The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.
. . .
Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors—one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.
The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
It's ironic that the religions you mentioned are usually thought of as devilish by most Christians,

Judaism is not usually considered devilish by most Christians, though Islam and the Baha'i Faith may be considered devilish by some if not many Christians. Many Muslims consider Baha'is devilish so to speak. This is unfortunate.


. . . and yet they are more aligned with the scriptures than those who so criticize them.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam evolved out of tribal religious beliefs, and tribalism opposition to other religions still persists.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
I said that; and, yes, it highly depends on whether you reading the trinity from the bible or man (if you like)?

You can argue the trinity all day, but none of you will go to heaven (going by you guys posts) if you are dependent on your interpretation of english scripture (as quoted in the other post) and not christ himself.
Look carefully at the first few chapters of Genesis. God was very plain when He told them what would happen if they ate from the tree of good and evil. Later, the devil came along and asked Eve if God "really" said that. First he got her to doubt. From there he only had to add a word or two, subtract a few words, and change a few words of what God actually said. Too bad she wasn't more adamant about sticking to what God actually told them.

I trust you are very careful when you enter into a legal contract with another person or company.

"Oh, the contract I just signed says I will pay 30% interest. I was thinking it would be more like 2%." What do you think the bank would say to that? Missing just a few words can end up making you regret you didn't read it more carefully. Just think of Gods's word as a contract. Don't just read it haphazardly, thinking it's OK as long as you get close.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
That tells me nothing.

Add commentary. Isolated verses assumes both parties understand the verse the same way.

You will have to speak for yourself. I in no way feel there is parity in our understanding of the forefront commandment of God. You and your apparent leader and teacher, the false prophet Paul, feel that you have been released from the Law (Romans 7:6), and like the serpent, preach that you "surely shall not die" (1 Cor 15:51-54). Jeremiah 31:30 states that you surely shall die for your own iniquity. The "staff" (Zechariah 11:10) you lean on is more like a reed from the shore of the Egyptian Nile.
 

IsaiahX

Ape That Loves
The trinity and making Jesus God has all kinds of problems. Here are three big ones:
  1. God is the father of Israel (Jer 31:19, Is 64:8, et. al.). Jesus is Israel's husband (Rev 21:9). If Jesus is God, he is both Israel's father and husband, i.e. God is incestuous.
  2. God is our (Christians) father. (Col 1:2). Jesus is our brother (Heb 2:11). If Jesus is God, he is both our father and our brother. That doesn't make any sense.
  3. Jesus is called the son of God some 48 times. If Jesus was God then he is his own father. Clearly unworkable.
Does God not understand simple family relationships? If Jesus is God that is a distinct possibility. However, if Jesus is not God, if there is not trinity, it all makes sense. The family relationships all fall into place, as does the rest of the redemption story. Making Jesus God, as tradition would say, makes the word of God of non-effect (Mark 7:13).

God is capable of using symbolism. Replace father with creator husband with someone you are united with spiritually, and brother with companion. There is nothing wrong with your creator being united with you spiritually or your companion being your Creator. I hope you will not interpret it so literally now.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Look carefully at the first few chapters of Genesis. God was very plain when He told them what would happen if they ate from the tree of good and evil. Later, the devil came along and asked Eve if God "really" said that. First he got her to doubt. From there he only had to add a word or two, subtract a few words, and change a few words of what God actually said. Too bad she wasn't more adamant about sticking to what God actually told them.

I trust you are very careful when you enter into a legal contract with another person or company.

"Oh, the contract I just signed says I will pay 30% interest. I was thinking it would be more like 2%." What do you think the bank would say to that? Missing just a few words can end up making you regret you didn't read it more carefully. Just think of Gods's word as a contract. Don't just read it haphazardly, thinking it's OK as long as you get close.

My questions are

1. Does your interpretation of the bible supersede those you disagree with? (Assuming you are the only one who be in heaven)


2. Are you assuming the bible holds the key to eternal life when it is written that it is the Word that does not his apostles words?

3. Does jesus punish you for calling him god?

4. How does calling him god, to you, determine the destination and meaning of one's relationship with Christ?

5. Do you have a relationship with christ or the bible?

6. If the bible, didnt god say have no other gods/idols before me?

These arent rethorical questions.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
You will have to speak for yourself. I in no way feel there is parity in our understanding of the forefront commandment of God. You and your apparent leader and teacher, the false prophet Paul, feel that you have been released from the Law (Romans 7:6), and like the serpent, preach that you "surely shall not die" (1 Cor 15:51-54). Jeremiah 31:30 states that you surely shall die for your own iniquity. The "staff" (Zechariah 11:10) you lean on is more like a reed from the shore of the Egyptian Nile.

Woah. If you dont want to clarify your statements and put you comment to your scrpture, how in the world can we converse when we are not on the same understanding of the isolated verses you quote?

You gotta know how to converse and make your point, explain it, then use verses to support it.

What is your point in these verses?

What exactly are you trying to say cause I cant and wont guess until I know what youre talking about?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Jesus Christ according to Biblical scripture remains a separate God in heaven 'seated on the right hand of God the Father.' Actually Mary as Mother of God adds to the polytheistic belief of traditional Christianity.

“[God] raised [Christ] from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places… . He put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.”

- Ephesians 1:20–23
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
A court and a person are two entirely different animals.

I can see a court made up of 9 people with no problem, but a person made up of three people creates a whole boatload of problems.

I appreciate your views, though. Thanks for the discussion!
That is the problem. God is not a person. God is a group like a family or a court. I feel sure you have no problem seeing a family as a single unit made up of more than one member. God is the same way. People just can't see it because they have been blinded by all the false ideas promoted by false religions. The Jones family is one family with a husband, a wife, and children. Jesus is the Son of the Father so God is a family made up of Father and Son. And God has promised to adopt millions of additional children who will be equal to Jesus and God will then consist of Father and many children. The idea of a trinity forever limits God to three persons and prevents people from seeing their true potential of being part of the family of God.
 
Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your thoughts.

I went to Catholic school (very traditional like yourself, Latin and all) for 12 years and took religion class 1 hour a day/5 days a week. I was really interested in learning about God, so I always studied hard and pretty much got straight "A"s in that class. But at the end of those 12 years I couldn't reconcile why God would want me to believe something that really didn't make any sense.

2 Timothy 3:7: -"Ever learning, and never attaining to the knowledge of the truth." There is one reason why Our Lord tells us that few are saved. The lack the first degree of faith and humility.


St. Benedict (c. 520): “The first degree of humility, then, is that a man always have the fear of God before his eyes, shunning all forgetfulness and that he be ever mindful of all that God hath commanded, that he always considereth in his mind how those who despise God will burn in hell for their sins, and that life everlasting is prepared for those who fear God.”

The Catholic Church is the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ upon St. Peter (Mt. 16:18-20; Jn. 21:15-17). This is proven by history, Scripture and tradition.


You say you attended Catholic school. Were you baptized Catholic? Did you pray daily, especially the Rosary? Prayer is essential for attaining the graces necessary to come to the supernatural faith of Jesus Christ. The dogma of the Holy Trinity is a Mystery of the Faith and cannot be assented to without the supernatural grace of God. You asked why God would want you to believe what didn't make sense to you. Again, the first degree of humility comes to mind. Why should you believe in the Holy Trinity? Because God has revealed it through His Church.


I'm sorry, but the whole idea of three in one, all the old pictures of a three headed creature, confused me to no end. It was never a comforting thought to me. My earthly dad would never have knowingly confused me that much, so I couldn't understand why my heavenly father would do that to me.


God reveals Himself through His Church and those who sincerely desire to know Him and love Him will inevitably be drawn by Him to this One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Pictures of a three-headed creature are found in paganism, not Catholicism. St. Patrick used a three-leaf clover (like the one I shared) to illustrate the beautiful truth of the Blessed Trinity. St. Augustine used the analogy of a flame and makes use of the heat, the fire, and the brightness , and how these three, though distinct from each other, make one flame. Even without these analogies, as a Catholic, the very simple fact that God gave authority to His Church who alone is the infallible interpreter of Scripture is enough to know beyond all question that her dogmas are true for all time.


Anyway, one day I met someone who introduced me to the simple idea that Jesus was the Son of God and not God the Son. He asked me if I could show him where the scriptures call Jesus God the Son. It dawned on me that in all those religion classes, I didn't remember even one time where we cracked the actual Bible and looked at it. Nonetheless, I figured I could find somewhere where they do call Jesus God the Son. Not knowing my way around the scriptures themselves, it took me some time, but I finally had to admit Jesus is never called God the Son. Not even once. My friend then pointed out that Jesus was called the Son of God almost 50 times. All of a sudden the confusion the trinity caused me vanished. The scriptures opened up to me in a way that the religion classes never did. I came to understand way more about God and His son, Jesus. Everything made sense. It was no longer necessary for my to take everything by faith. I could now understand with my little pea brain how much God loved me. Likewise I understood how much the man Jesus Christ, God's only begotten son, loved me.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is also God the Son. He is also true God and true man, having two natures, both divine and human. Within the Catholic Faith, we accept both Scripture and Tradition. However, Scripture by itself does teach plainly that Jesus Christ is God as the following quote from vaticancatholic.com proves.

The “Jehovah’s Witnesses” and the Unitarians deny that Jesus Christ is God. But there are many passages in the Bible which show that Jesus is God. The first few that come to mind are:



“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1.)

“Thomas answered and said to him: My Lord, and my God” (John 20:28).

“Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am” (John 8:58).



“I am” is the very name that God gave to Himself when He appeared to Moses in the burning bush to indicate that He is the eternal, uncreated supreme being. When Jesus said this of Himself, He was clearly indicating that He is God. This is why the Jews “took up stones” to kill Jesus (John 8:59). The prophecy of Isaias 9:6, which is clearly about Jesus, also proves that Jesus is God:



“For a child is born to us, a son is given to us: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.” (Isaias 9:6)



One of our personal favorites on this point, but which is often overlooked, is Acts 3:15. Referring to how the Jews preferred the murderer Barabbas to Jesus and had Jesus crucified, St. Peter says:



“But the author of life you killed…” (Acts 3:15)



The author of life Jesus is God. Thus, Jesus is God. Another passage is found in Apocalypse chapter 1:



“And in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks, one like to the Son of man… And when I had seen him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying: Fear not. I am the First and the Last, and behold I am living forever and ever…” (Apoc. 1)



Some people are unaware that God describes Himself as “the first and the last” in the Old Testament.

“I the Lord, I am the first and the last” (Isaias 41:4).

There are many other passages we could bring up, but the fact that Jesus is God is also proven by what is called “implicit Christology.” This means that the manner in which Jesus spoke showed that He is God.


You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery. But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28).


Notice that Jesus, commenting on the words and commandment of God Himself in Exodus 20:14, clearly puts His own declaration on the same level: You have heard that God has said, BUT I SAY, says Jesus. This way of speaking shows Jesus is God.

Another interesting passage comes in Galatians.


“Paul, an apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead…” (Galatians 1:1)

Since Paul did not become an apostle by men or of man, but by Jesus Christ, the obvious implication is that Jesus Christ is not just a man. He is also God.

The fact that Jesus is God and man (one Divine Person with two natures) was held by the earliest fathers of the Church and is a truth which must be held by all who want to be saved and possess the true faith:


From AD 108, St. Ignatius to the church at Ephesus: “Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to her who has been blessed in greatness through the fulness of God the Father, ordained before time to be always resulting in permanent glory, unchangeably united and chosen in true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ, our God, to the church which is in Ephesus of Asia, worthy of felicitation: abundant greetings in Jesus Christ and in blameless joy.” (Ephesians 1)

End quote.

He was born with innocent blood (the result of the virgin birth). Adam also was born with innocent blood. But whereas Adam wanted to be God (as the devil suggested he could achieve), Jesus was content with being who he was, the son of God and not God Himself. Of course because of Adam's poor choice, we all inherited his sin filled blood. But praise God, Jesus always obeyed his father to the letter, even unto the horrible death I mentioned. Had he sinned, and like the first Adam he had free will and could have sinned at any time in his life, we would still be dead in our trespasses and sins. The devil even offered him all the kingdoms in the world. For God to have refused that is no big deal, but for a man like you or me to refuse such a tempting offer, WOW! And why did he refuse the offer? Because he loved you, me and every other low life sinner that ever lived just that much. To me that is a much grander story than making Jesus God. After many years of Biblical research I've also come to realize that it is exactly what the scriptures themselves really say.

He was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the most pure womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God. He was born innocent because He is God made man. In becoming man, He did not cease to be God. All are born in Original Sin, but God preserved the Blessed Mother free from all sin because of her future office as Mother of God.

You say, after many years of Biblical research...

Again, 2 Timothy 3:7: -"Ever learning, and never attaining to the knowledge of the truth."

It is not possible for God to be the Author of confusion, of so many thousands of warring sects, of so many contradictions in doctrines and beliefs. No, God is the Author of Truth and His Son, Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Who became man established His Church, the Catholic Church which is to be for all time the Ark of Salvation in which all men must come into or be lost forever.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
2 Timothy 3:7: -"Ever learning, and never attaining to the knowledge of the truth." There is one reason why Our Lord tells us that few are saved. The lack the first degree of faith and humility.


St. Benedict (c. 520): “The first degree of humility, then, is that a man always have the fear of God before his eyes, shunning all forgetfulness and that he be ever mindful of all that God hath commanded, that he always considereth in his mind how those who despise God will burn in hell for their sins, and that life everlasting is prepared for those who fear God.”

The Catholic Church is the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ upon St. Peter (Mt. 16:18-20; Jn. 21:15-17). This is proven by history, Scripture and tradition.

Yes, this believed by those that consider the Roman Church Catholic, but this is a claim based on faith and not proven in any objective way. Along tragic and reprehensible history, and the unfortunate behavior of the Roman Church in recent history is a clear documented witness that the Roman Church is a very fallible human institution without any consistent divine guidance,

You say you attended Catholic school. Were you baptized Catholic? Did you pray daily, especially the Rosary? Prayer is essential for attaining the graces necessary to come to the supernatural faith of Jesus Christ. The dogma of the Holy Trinity is a Mystery of the Faith and cannot be assented to without the supernatural grace of God. You asked why God would want you to believe what didn't make sense to you. Again, the first degree of humility comes to mind. Why should you believe in the Holy Trinity? Because God has revealed it through His Church.

I was baptized and raised in the Roman Church, but based on history I do not consider the Roman Church a reliable source.
 
Yes, this believed by those that consider the Roman Church Catholic, but this is a claim based on faith and not proven in any objective way. Along tragic and reprehensible history, and the unfortunate behavior of the Roman Church in recent history is a clear documented witness that the Roman Church is a very fallible human institution without any consistent divine guidance,



I was baptized and raised in the Roman Church, but based on history I do not consider the Roman Church a reliable source.

Jesus Christ promised to be with His Church for all time. And yes, it is proven by history, Scripture and tradition. As far as the "unfortunate behavior of the Roman Church in recent history," you are most definitely referring to the Vatican II Sect which purports to be the Catholic Church, but is not. In fact, the Vatican II sect (and its antipopes) is the prophesied end-times Counter Church. The facts are well documented.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Perhaps you should consider yourself one with God. I know that according to man's wisdom it is heretical to say such a thing, but you can't ignore the scriptures.
What I was implying is that I don't have the "mind" of God. IOW, I have limited knowledge (very limited, matter of fact) and I don't think I can speak for God.

OTOH, I can consider myself being "one with God" because I at least try to do the right thing. I don't always succeed though-- just ask my wife. OTOH, don't ask my wife. :emojconfused:
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Jesus Christ promised to be with His Church for all time. And yes, it is proven by history, Scripture and tradition. As far as the "unfortunate behavior of the Roman Church in recent history," you are most definitely referring to the Vatican II Sect which purports to be the Catholic Church, but is not. In fact, the Vatican II sect (and its antipopes) is the prophesied end-times Counter Church. The facts are well documented.

The reality of Vatican II is that it change little or nothing concerning the foundation Doctrine and Dogma of the Roman Church. It is mainly the Vatican I of the mid 1800's that was not approved, because of crisis of the Roman Church of the time in the loss of the Vatican States to the unification of Italy.

I was studying fro a year for the Priesthood in the St' Francis order at the time Vatican II was approved. I am very familiar with the whole history of the Roman Church. It is the whole history of the Roman Church tha tis the problem. The problems of the Roman Church did not suddenly appear in the 1960's.

It remains the fact that your claims are a matter of belief and based on faith, and not objective facts nor proof.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Again, to dispel this polytheism nonsense, here's a non-faith citation:
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Latin: trinus"threefold")[1] holds that God is one God, but three coeternal consubstantial persons[2] or hypostases[3]—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine Persons". The three Persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature" (homoousios).[4] In this context, a "nature" is what one is, whereas a "person" is who one is.[5][6][7] Sometimes differing views are referred to as nontrinitarian.-- Trinity - Wikipedia

Also, Mary is not part of the Trinity nor worshiped in Catholicism but prayers can be said through her and the other saints:
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you;
blessed are you among women,
and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
2 Timothy 3:7: -"Ever learning, and never attaining to the knowledge of the truth." There is one reason why Our Lord tells us that few are saved. The lack the first degree of faith and humility.

St. Benedict (c. 520): “The first degree of humility, then, is that a man always have the fear of God before his eyes, shunning all forgetfulness and that he be ever mindful of all that God hath commanded, that he always considereth in his mind how those who despise God will burn in hell for their sins, and that life everlasting is prepared for those who fear God.”

The Catholic Church is the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ upon St. Peter (Mt. 16:18-20; Jn. 21:15-17). This is proven by history, Scripture and tradition.

You say you attended Catholic school. Were you baptized Catholic? Did you pray daily, especially the Rosary? Prayer is essential for attaining the graces necessary to come to the supernatural faith of Jesus Christ. The dogma of the Holy Trinity is a Mystery of the Faith and cannot be assented to without the supernatural grace of God. You asked why God would want you to believe what didn't make sense to you. Again, the first degree of humility comes to mind. Why should you believe in the Holy Trinity? Because God has revealed it through His Church.

God reveals Himself through His Church and those who sincerely desire to know Him and love Him will inevitably be drawn by Him to this One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Pictures of a three-headed creature are found in paganism, not Catholicism. St. Patrick used a three-leaf clover (like the one I shared) to illustrate the beautiful truth of the Blessed Trinity. St. Augustine used the analogy of a flame and makes use of the heat, the fire, and the brightness , and how these three, though distinct from each other, make one flame. Even without these analogies, as a Catholic, the very simple fact that God gave authority to His Church who alone is the infallible interpreter of Scripture is enough to know beyond all question that her dogmas are true for all time.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is also God the Son. He is also true God and true man, having two natures, both divine and human. Within the Catholic Faith, we accept both Scripture and Tradition. However, Scripture by itself does teach plainly that Jesus Christ is God as the following quote from vaticancatholic.com proves.

The “Jehovah’s Witnesses” and the Unitarians deny that Jesus Christ is God. But there are many passages in the Bible which show that Jesus is God. The first few that come to mind are:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1.)

“Thomas answered and said to him: My Lord, and my God” (John 20:28).

“Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am” (John 8:58).

“I am” is the very name that God gave to Himself when He appeared to Moses in the burning bush to indicate that He is the eternal, uncreated supreme being. When Jesus said this of Himself, He was clearly indicating that He is God. This is why the Jews “took up stones” to kill Jesus (John 8:59). The prophecy of Isaias 9:6, which is clearly about Jesus, also proves that Jesus is God:

“For a child is born to us, a son is given to us: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.” (Isaias 9:6)

One of our personal favorites on this point, but which is often overlooked, is Acts 3:15. Referring to how the Jews preferred the murderer Barabbas to Jesus and had Jesus crucified, St. Peter says:

“But the author of life you killed…” (Acts 3:15)

The author of life Jesus is God. Thus, Jesus is God. Another passage is found in Apocalypse chapter 1:

“And in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks, one like to the Son of man… And when I had seen him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying: Fear not. I am the First and the Last, and behold I am living forever and ever…” (Apoc. 1)

Some people are unaware that God describes Himself as “the first and the last” in the Old Testament.

“I the Lord, I am the first and the last” (Isaias 41:4).

There are many other passages we could bring up, but the fact that Jesus is God is also proven by what is called “implicit Christology.” This means that the manner in which Jesus spoke showed that He is God.

You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery. But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already com


Notice that Jesus, commenting on the words and commandment of God Himself in Exodus 20:14, clearly puts His own declaration on the same level: You have heard that God has said, BUT I SAY, says Jesus. This way of speaking shows Jesus is God.

Another interesting passage comes in Galatians.

“Paul, an apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead…” (Galatians 1:1)

Since Paul did not become an apostle by men or of man, but by Jesus Christ, the obvious implication is that Jesus Christ is not just a man. He is also God.

The fact that Jesus is God and man (one Divine Person with two natures) was held by the earliest fathers of the Church and is a truth which must be held by all who want to be saved and possess the true faith:

From AD 108, St. Ignatius to the church at Ephesus: “Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to her who has been blessed in greatness through the fulness of God the Father, ordained before time to be always resulting in permanent glory, unchangeably united and chosen in true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ, our God, to the church which is in Ephesus of Asia, worthy of felicitation: abundant greetings in Jesus Christ and in blameless joy.” (Ephesians 1)

End quote.

He was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the most pure womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God. He was born innocent because He is God made man. In becoming man, He did not cease to be God. All are born in Original Sin, but God preserved the Blessed Mother free from all sin because of her future office as Mother of God.

You say, after many years of Biblical research...

Again, 2 Timothy 3:7: -"Ever learning, and never attaining to the knowledge of the truth."

It is not possible for God to be the Author of confusion, of so many thousands of warring sects, of so many contradictions in doctrines and beliefs. No, God is the Author of Truth and His Son, Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Who became man established His Church, the Catholic Church which is to be for all time the Ark of Salvation in which all men must come into or be lost forever.
Thanks again for your reply. I'm aware most of what you told me. But I'm also aware of other teachings that few trinitarians want to hear. That's fine, but it does mean they won't be able to make up their own mind based on scripture and nothing but scripture.Instead they must rely on the outside sources you mentioned.

I understand the verses you quoted but don't see them as proof of the trinity. I believe the trinity is a preconceived idea that is read into them. I could handle each and every one of them, and show you how they have nothing to do with Jesus being God, but it probably wouldn't make any difference, so I'll abstain. You mentioned the JW and Unitarians. I'm neither of those, but they do have good teachings on the subject for anyone who is curious.

God's word says it has everything about life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3). In other words, it is not necessary to go outside of the scriptures. That is especially true when the outside sources go against the scriptures, which is what much of what the "early church fathers" did. Paul said that almost everybody had turned against his God inspired doctrine contained in the seven church epistles even before he died (2 Tom 1:15). Since Paul never mentioned a trinity I can only conclude the idea came after Paul's time and is therefore against the things God revealed to Paul in the Epistles.

On the other hand, I think if you look carefully at what I said about the virgin birth (close to what you said, but slightly different) it may open up new avenues of thought for you. Of course, that's totally optional. In any case, the first man, Adam, was also born with innocent blood and he certainly wasn't God. Therefore being born with innocent blood does not necessarily equate to being born as God. It just means that person has the chance to live a sin free life. Adam blew it, but Jesus didn't. But, unlike God, they both had the potential to sin. Praise God Jesus didn't follow in the steps of Adam!

Again, thanks for your kind reply. After all, this is a debate forum, not a mud slinging forum, something which many seem to forget. God bless...
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
My questions are

1. Does your interpretation of the bible supersede those you disagree with? (Assuming you are the only one who be in heaven)


2. Are you assuming the bible holds the key to eternal life when it is written that it is the Word that does not his apostles words?

3. Does jesus punish you for calling him god?

4. How does calling him god, to you, determine the destination and meaning of one's relationship with Christ?

5. Do you have a relationship with christ or the bible?

6. If the bible, didnt god say have no other gods/idols before me?

These arent rethorical questions.
How about giving me a multiple choice quiz?
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
What I was implying is that I don't have the "mind" of God. IOW, I have limited knowledge (very limited, matter of fact) and I don't think I can speak for God.

OTOH, I can consider myself being "one with God" because I at least try to do the right thing. I don't always succeed though-- just ask my wife. OTOH, don't ask my wife. :emojconfused:
I'm really glad to tell you that you do indeed have the mind of Christ.

1Cor 2:16,

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
That mind is revealed in the scriptures. No wonder God tells us to meditate on them. It's a lot better than thinking worldly thoughts, especially considering what the world is telling everyone what to think these days!

We all blow it. I do everyday. Stupid flesh! That is precisely why we needed a savior and an advocate between us and God. Praise God for that!

BTW, everything will be just between you and me! We'll keep both of wives out of it. :)
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I'm not one for sarcasm
How about giving me a multiple choice quiz?

1. Does your biblical interpretation supersede others who differ from you?

2. Do you feel the physical bible is key to eternal life or christ himself? Can you differientiate between the two?

3. How does calling jesus god affect ones relationship with Christ?

You can summarize it or whatever. Does your interpretation supersede others; and, do you believe the bible holds eternal life or christ? Can you tell the difference?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
BTW, everything will be just between you and me! We'll keep both of wives out of it. :)
Whew!!! Thanks! ;)

BTW, we've been married for 51 years, and the only thing I have to hold against her is that she married a schmuck. :(
 
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