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Works or Grace

What must one do to be "saved"?

  • Baptism

    Votes: 1 7.7%
  • Faith in Jesus is sufficient

    Votes: 4 30.8%
  • Faith plus Works

    Votes: 1 7.7%
  • Must join a Church or Organization

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Must be "better" than before

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Must be a "good person"

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Evangelism

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • other

    Votes: 9 69.2%

  • Total voters
    13

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
well I'll ask the question is your faith Alive if it doesn't move you to do righteous works? is saying I have faith proof you of your faith or is James correct in saying faith without works is dead? Faith must be alive my friend. I'm not making it complicated cuz I didn't write the bible but in my opinion this balance view the bible teaches is very simple and easy to understand when having proper context.

James and everyone in the gospel and the prophets agree with each other that faith is not just saying the words: I trust you god. Its a relationship. You literaly act in your trust. Every person who god favored did it. They served and obeyed god.

James makes sense that faith without works is dead. Its not a biblical thing to sit and tell yourself you have faith without needing to do anything to support your conviction. That sounds like personal preference.

I honestly dont see a balance, though. Its one. When you serve, you let god act because you have faith the works he does through you are righteous works and not from self. But you cant let him work through you without faith.

They seesaw each other. Salvation is when you let god work through you by your faith and his works.
 

LiveByFaithNotSight

The Art Of Conversing
James and everyone in the gospel and the prophets agree with each other that faith is not just saying the words: I trust you god. Its a relationship. You literaly act in your trust. Every person who god favored did it. They served and obeyed god.

James makes sense that faith without works is dead. Its not a biblical thing to sit and tell yourself you have faith without needing to do anything to support your conviction. That sounds like personal preference.

I honestly dont see a balance, though. Its one. When you serve, you let god act because you have faith the works he does through you are righteous works and not from self. But you cant let him work through you without faith.

They seesaw each other. Salvation is when you let god work through you by your faith and his works.
I agree. I dont know were we disagree on this point in particular.
 

LiveByFaithNotSight

The Art Of Conversing
James and everyone in the gospel and the prophets agree with each other that faith is not just saying the words: I trust you god. Its a relationship. You literaly act in your trust. Every person who god favored did it. They served and obeyed god.

James makes sense that faith without works is dead. Its not a biblical thing to sit and tell yourself you have faith without needing to do anything to support your conviction. That sounds like personal preference.

I honestly dont see a balance, though. Its one. When you serve, you let god act because you have faith the works he does through you are righteous works and not from self. But you cant let him work through you without faith.

They seesaw each other. Salvation is when you let god work through you by your faith and his works.
I only use the word balance because it is unbalanced to think that just saying you have faith but producing works of the flesh equals salvation or it's unbalanced to think that works of the law or Works in general can equal salvation. The balanced way is how you explained they're one in the same your faith will move you to do righteous works therefore proving your faith to be the kind of faith that means salvation
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
As a Jehovah's witness its False that we Preach Works equal Salvation. we have a balance view on Works and Faith. Explain by Apostle Paul and James.

Our considering the context also helps us to understand what some have claimed is a disagreement between the apostle Paul and James. At Ephesians 2:8, 9, Paul says that Christians are saved by faith, not by works. He says: “You have been saved through faith . . . not owing to works.” James, however, insists on the importance of works. He writes: “As the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.” (James 2:26) How can these two statements be reconciled?


Considering the context of Paul’s words, we find that one statement complements the other. The apostle Paul is referring to the efforts of the Jews to keep the Mosaic Law. They believed that if they kept the Law in all its details, they would be righteous. Paul pointed out that this was impossible. We can never become righteous—and thus deserve salvation—by our own works, for we are inherently sinful. We can only be saved by faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice.—Romans 5:18.

James, however, adds the vital point that faith in itself is valueless if not supported by actions. A person who claims to have faith in Jesus should prove it by what he does. An inactive faith is a dead faith and will not lead to salvation.

The apostle Paul was in full agreement with this, and he often mentions the kinds of works that Christians should engage in to demonstrate their faith. For example, to the Romans he wrote: “With the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.” Making a “public declaration”—sharing our faith with others—is vital for salvation. (Romans 10:10; see also 1 Corinthians 15:58; Ephesians 5:15,21-33; 6:15; 1 Timothy 4:16; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:23-25.) No work, however, that a Christian can do, and certainly no effort to fulfill the Law of Moses, will earn him the right to everlasting life. This is “the gift God gives” to those who exercise faith.—Romans 6:23; John 3:16.

Is anything more than faith needed in order to gain salvation?


Eph. 2:8, 9, RS: “By grace [“undeserved kindness,” NW] you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast.” (The entire provision for salvation is an expression of God’s undeserved kindness. There is no way that a descendant of Adam can gain salvation on his own, no matter how noble his works are. Salvation is a gift from God given to those who put faith in the sin-atoning value of the sacrifice of his Son.)

Heb. 5:9, RS: “He [Jesus] became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him.” (Italics added.) (Does this conflict with the statement that Christians are “saved through faith”? Not at all. Obedience simply demonstrates that their faith is genuine.)

Jas. 2:14, 26, RS: “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” (A person does not earn salvation by his works. But anyone who has genuine faith will have works to go with it—works of obedience to the commands of God and Christ, works that demonstrate his faith and love. Without such works, his faith is dead.)

Acts 16:30, 31, RS: “‘Men, what must I do to be saved?’ And they [Paul and Silas] said, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’” (If that man and his household truly believed, would they not act in harmony with their belief? Certainly.)


Regarding James and Paul, both quote aspects of Abraham being righteous.

Paul pointed out the Bible says Abraham became righteous by faith, believing in God's promise to provide Isaac

James points out long after Isaac born and grew up was sacrificed that vindicated Abraham's faith form decades before and already declared righteous. His works vindicated the faith he had, they evidenced his faith as a living faith.

Faith was the root. Works were the fruit.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I only use the word balance because it is unbalanced to think that just saying you have faith but producing works of the flesh equals salvation or it's unbalanced to think that works of the law or Works in general can equal salvation. The balanced way is how you explained they're one in the same your faith will move you to do righteous works therefore proving your faith to be the kind of faith that means salvation

Exactly. I think it probably sounds better from a christian even though we pretty much said the same thing. Its not really complicated just we draw our own conclusions to make more sense of the faith in which we are convicted. If it is all word-for-word no one learns anything hence the unnecessary debate over scripture.
 

LiveByFaithNotSight

The Art Of Conversing
Regarding James and Paul, both quote aspects of Abraham being righteous.

Paul pointed out the Bible says Abraham became righteous by faith, believing in God's promise to provide Isaac

James points out long after Isaac born and grew up was sacrificed that vindicated Abraham's faith form decades before and already declared righteous. His works vindicated the faith he had, they evidenced his faith as a living faith.

Faith was the root. Works were the fruit.
agreed
 

LiveByFaithNotSight

The Art Of Conversing
Exactly. I think it probably sounds better from a christian even though we pretty much said the same thing. Its not really complicated just we draw our own conclusions to make more sense of the faith in which we are convicted. If it is all word-for-word no one learns anything hence the unnecessary debate over scripture.
I respect it
 

Gulo

Member
Are works necessary for salvation (as the JW's claim) or can we be saved by belief alone in Jesus Christ's sacrificial death?

What must one do to be saved?
Strive to be decent to yourself as well as decent to others. Strive to find a balance in this.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Are works necessary for salvation (as the JW's claim) or can we be saved by belief alone in Jesus Christ's sacrificial death?

What must one do to be saved?

Wow, hold your horses. What sacrificial death?

You mean the weekend off He took during the Passover?

Ciao

- viole
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Are works necessary for salvation (as the JW's claim) or can we be saved by belief alone in Jesus Christ's sacrificial death?

What must one do to be saved?

First, I think you should understand what saved even means, from what would you be saved. Bible tells that the wage of sin is death. So, if you live in sin, you are judged to die. Now, Jesus came to declare forgiveness, which means that sin is forgiven and you can avoid the judgment, and now repent and do not continue in sin.

That forgiveness is freely offered. And actually, Jesus gave the right to forgive for his disciples (John 20:23). So, I can forgive your sins right now. You don’t have to do anything. However, the forgiveness is not useful, if you continue in sin. That is why Jesus taught that people should be born anew, become righteous. Eternal life is for righteous. If after forgiveness you don’t become righteous, the forgiveness was not useful.

This is why the answer is, you don’t need to do anything to be saved. But to get eternal life, you must be righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46


For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 6:23

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
Hebrews 8:10-12 (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
 
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