Disagreements regarding Chosen Ones of God

Tumah said:

He is both: we retain a special relationship with Him, while he also remains the G-d of the whole world.

Click to expand...

I agree.

Tumah said:

No it isn't. Anyone can convert to Judaism provided they are willing to follow the same Laws G-d gave us.

Click to expand...

Of course anyone can convert to Judaism.

Conversion to Judaism - Wikipedia

Any ideas about the numbers of adherents to Judaism that are not ethnically Jewish?

Tumah said:

They're not doing anything close to a reasonable job of educating their followers about my G-d and His prophets. We can start with the doctrine of the Trinity for Christians and continue speaking about just how much information can you learn about the Jewish prophets studying the Quran. The most that can be said is that it's a step up from their pagan pasts.

Click to expand...

Jesus never taught the doctrine of trinity. That was a creation of the Christian Church in the 4th century AD. Muhammad specifically discouraged such a belief.

It was an enormous achievement for Muhammad to teach the disparate pagan nomadic tribesman of the Arabian peninsula there was one God. He united these tribes and taught them about to be like the Jews and Christians and worship the One True G_d. The Quran mentions about 40 - 50 characters on the Tanakh so that went along way to educating His people. The Torah (Tawrat) is mentioned 18 times and the name Moses (Musa)136 times.

Torah in Islam - Wikipedia

Tumah said:

Why would you wonder that, having seen, I'm sure, Deut. 28?

Click to expand...

That is useful to hear you referring to this chapter. The strength of RF is to enable us all to learn about each others faiths if we want.

Tumah said:

What do you mean "they were right"? The people who started their religions based their new religions on the laurels of previous religions, both of which come back to Judaism. This is not a question of error, but of history. The regions these religions started in were either Jewish or had strong Jewish and Christians influences. Had Muhammad come from India, I suspect Islam would look a bit different.

Click to expand...

There were strong historic circumstances and leanings towards Judaism. Both Muhammad and Jesus respected the Torah and the Jewish prophets as is. Clearly both felt inspired by G_d to adapt those Teachings to the exigencies of a new era in human history. In that respect both appeared to have been successful. What G_d taught the peoples of India was entirely different reflecting the culture.

Tumah said:

When has G-d ever stopped false prophets from existing? First Temple Era Israel was rife with them. If you spend any time studying Jeremiah, it was epidemic. Everybody and their mother were following false prophets. So I don't really see how that should be a question.

Click to expand...

That is true, but did any of those false prophets teachings to the extent Christianity and Islam has?

Tumah said:

If you want to know, from a theological stand point, how do we understand G-d's desire to spread Christianity and Islam, that's a different question. Christianity and Islam serve the purpose of introducing the concepts monotheism and the Torah to the world, so that when our Messiah comes, these ideas won't be alien and unrelatable. It's a lot easier to understand where Judaism is coming from - despite the differences- having become familiar with Christianity, than it is having only known about the Greek pantheon. This is very convenient for us, because it means that during our exile, we don't have to go around spreading these concepts and instead we can focus of following and perpetuating G-d's Law.

Click to expand...

The theological question is the gist of what I'm getting at. I would never have come to appreciate the Torah and the Jewish prophets if it had not been for my Christian ancestors.

I don't talk to too many who strictly observe the Torah as some Jews do. Yet I talked for such a person for a couple of hours yesterday. We had both attended the same church many years ago. He has now converted to Judaism as I have become a Baha'i. G_d moves in mysterious ways.

InvestigateTruth said:

Question: why there is always disagreement about interpretations of the Books of God when it comes to those verses related to a promised person? Can we say God cannot get His message clear to prevent disagreements?

Click to expand...

Maybe those books were not the books of God?
My Deity's message is amazingly clear....... it's all around me, not in written words but in every aspect of nature, whether in sunlight or starlight, or rock or flora or fauna........ it's all there.
No need for books purported to have been initiated by any God.

oldbadger said:

Maybe those books were not the books of God?
My Deity's message is amazingly clear....... it's all around me, not in written words but in every aspect of nature, whether in sunlight or starlight, or rock or flora or fauna........ it's all there.
No need for books purported to have been initiated by any God.

Click to expand...

Those books support the view that nature can teach us all about God.

It is a special person that knows how all is connected to nature without reading the books.

Regards Tony

InvestigateTruth said:

I agree with this.

.
Now, this part is what you say is what i cannot understand:

'That means that the other prophets - with the exception of Daniel on certain occasions - received their visions as "riddles" and interpreted them on the spot before passing on the message.'

No where in the scriptures, as far as I know, it says that everytime the prophets received their visions as riddles, they interpreted them on the spot. I will be happy if you can quote this from Bible for me.
@adrian009 may know from the Bible, what was the reason that God spoke to other prophets in riddles. There must have been a reason. I think, the reason is, the words must remain closed until the time of End, as in the vision of Daniel can be seen. The interpretations of vision must kept closed and sealed. This same is also repeated from Isaiah.

Click to expand...

A central theme of the Tanakh is how G_d tests us or allows us to be tested. David sought G_d’s testing, asking Him to examine his heart and mind and see that they were true to Him (Psalm 26:2, Psalm 139:23). When Abraham was tested by G_d in the matter of sacrificing Isaac, Abraham obeyed and set an example to us all to all what it means to be faithful.

In both the Tanakh and New Testaments, the words translated “test” mean “to prove by trial.” Therefore, when G_d tests us, His purpose is to prove that our faith is real. He is proving to us that our faith is real, that we are truly His servants, and that no trial will overcome our faith.

The testing or trials through the Hebrew prophets come in various ways. G_d would often admonish His people saying the were hard of hearing and had no eyes to see. The prophets were frequently misunderstood, ignored or even ridiculed. Its clear from the texts of books such as Ezekiel, Daniel, and Zechariah reveal a message, much of which could not be interpreted literally. Clearly there are verses that no one really understands including those which are Messianic and some Baha'is must through prayer and meditation unravel the Divine Mysteries.

The account of Job is a perfect example of G_d allowing one of His saints to be tested. Job bore all his trials patiently and “did not sin by charging G_d with wrongdoing” (Job 1:22). The account of Job’s testing prefigures the extent that God may test us and His chosen people. G_d chastises Job and particularly his friends telling them to be humble and remind them they are clueless when it comes to understanding His ways.

There are many examples of the positive results of being tested. Psalms likens our testing to being refined like silver (Psalm 66:10).

InvestigateTruth said:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 36-44
See, how clearly the dates matches with Manifestation of the Bab?

Click to expand...

As I said before, anyone can interpret this prophecy and others in anyway and to anyone they wish, they cannot prove they are right, and they very well may not be.
JWs have an application that fits. SDAs have an application that fits. I'm quite sure LDSs have an application that fits, and I am sure if we check further, we will find more groups with applications that fit.
None are in harmony, and all can't be right. It's a guessing game, so to speak.

I went through most of the posts. Hard keeping up, but I will catch up eventually.
However, I will start from early on, and come forward.

@InvestigateTruth earlier you said...

From Bahai perspective, there is no conflict between Bible, the Quran and Bahai Scriptures.
Also, there has never been any corruption done in Bible.

Click to expand...

What do you think about this...
The Bible says God has sons, one of which is Jesus. The Quran says no.
The Bible says Jesus was resurrected to heaven. The Quran says no... I think.
Are these not in conflict?

Also what about the conflict that exists here?
Bahá'ís believe that the founders of the religion, The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh, received revelation directly from God. As such their works are considered divinely inspired. These works are considered to be "revealed text" or revelation.

Where do the scriptures speak of other inspired books that God would use in the end times?
Hebrews 1:1, 2 1 . . .Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

According to the book of Revelation
It starts with these words: (Revelation 1:1-3) 1 . . .A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John, 2 who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, yes, to all the things he saw. 3 Happy is the one who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy and who observe the things written in it, for the appointed time is near.

It ends with these words: (Revelation 22:18-21) 18 “I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll. 20 “The one who bears witness of these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’” “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.” 21 May the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus be with the holy ones.

You also said...

...if One goes with the claim of Tanach, the Prophecies are inspiration from God. The Book teaches in several instances that interpretations of Prophecies are difficult and only a Prophet who receives its knowledge can know it.
...maybe, the interpretations of the prophecies of Messiah have been misunderstood by people, and also if Jesus fulfilled them, must be explained by a Prophet how it happened, rather than even the Christians.

Click to expand...

How would you suggest one go about finding out, or determining who would explain these prophecies?
My suggestion is that we follow the scriptures. (John 13:35; Matthew 9:35; Mark 1:35-39; Luke 8:1; 9:1-6; 10:1-11; James 1:27}
By their fruit, you will recognize them.

According to Bahaullah

...It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith.

Click to expand...

So, if this is what Bahais believe, then Moses, and all the prophets after him should agree, to show they are of God.
I find no harmony with the following in scripture.

You said:

Bab is prophesied as return of Elijah. Bahaullah as Lord of Host, Glory of the God of Israel, the Father, and Return of Christ in the glory of the Father.

Click to expand...

Rather, I find that Jesus proved to be the true prophet, through whom God would fulfill all things.
No one would succeed him, according to scripture.
Hebrews 7:23-25
23 Furthermore, many had to become priests in succession because death prevented them from continuing as such, 24 but because he continues alive forever, his priesthood has no successors. 25 So he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them.

Ephesians 1:8-14
8 This undeserved kindness he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding 9 by making known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. Yes, in him 11 with whom we are in union and were assigned as heirs, having been foreordained according to the purpose of the one who accomplishes all things as he decides according to his will, 12 so that we who have been first to hope in the Christ should serve for the praise of his glory. 13 But you also hoped in him after you heard the word of truth, the good news about your salvation. After you believed, you were sealed by means of him with the promised holy spirit, 14 which is a token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of releasing God’s own possession by a ransom, to his glorious praise.

Are these scriptures not clear enough to help us appreciate that God does not appoint a successor to his anointed one - the Christ? According to scripture, there is no successor.

Can you give one scriptural reason why we should accept a nineteenth century self proclaimed Messiah and prophet, that would later write books claiming to be from god?
Al-Qa'im (person) - Wikipedia
Al-Qāʾim (Arabic: القائم‎ "He Who Arises") is a messiah-like figure in Shia Islam, sometimes referred to as the Mahdi, but distinctly of a Shiʿa tradition. Believers in Babism and the Bahá'í Faith both consider the Báb (1819-1850) to have been the Qāʾim.

Did Jesus not warn against this?
Jesus gave this warning in Matthew 24
4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned you. 26 Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

There is only one redeemer, according to scripture, is that not so?
So what are Bahais following, the scriptures, of self proclaimed Messiahs?
Can't say we haven't been warned.

I was forced to break up the post, since it was too long for one.


The Bahai Faith is in harmony with Muslim faith which contradicts the Bible, and the Christian Faith.

Source: Mahdi - Wikipedia

Ahmadiyya - Wikipedia
Ahmadi (a global Islamic revival movement) thought emphasizes the belief that Islam is the final dispensation for humanity as revealed to Muhammad and the necessity of restoring it to its true intent and pristine form, which had been lost through the centuries. Its adherents consider Ahmad to have appeared as the Mahdi - bearing the qualities of Jesus in accordance with their reading of scriptural prophecies - to revitalize Islam and set in motion its moral system that would bring about lasting peace.


What say the Bahai... Does Bahai agree with the Quran in these things, or is this a corrupt interpretation?

The holy spirit has sealed the anointed of God - the follower of Christ, not Bab or Bahaullah, nor Muhammad... according to the scriptures. Is that not so?

InvestigateTruth said:

That is actually one of the reasons I have noticed Christians say about their Bible and Muslims about their Quran, That we know our own Book.
Although it is understandable, but it is difficult to prove this claim, because if one considers that for instance the Bible is the Book of God, it is not very reasonable for any adherent of the Bible to claim they know their own Book better than God. So, if God wants to raise a Prophet and talks to them, through Him, they say, we know our own Book better than Him. Another reason that it makes it difficult to prove this claim, is that, usually the followers of a particular Book have become divided in sects. For instance in Christianity, each sect or denomination have a different interpretation of the Bible. Obviously we cannot say all of them are right, just because they are Christians, when they have conflicting interpretations. Perhaps, each have some parts of the true interpretations, which makes it for each sect difficult to see the whole truth...then when God comes with a new Prophet to explain the original true interpretations, most would disagree, saying, this is not how our denomination have been teaching.

Click to expand...

Where did Jesus say Elijah shall come at the End Time?
You are not referring to Matthew 17:10-13,are you?
10 However, the disciples put the question to him: “Why, then, do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11 In reply he said: “Elijah is indeed coming and will restore all things. 12 However, I say to you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him but did whatever they wanted with him. In this way also, the Son of man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples perceived that he spoke to them about John the Baptist.

Here Jesus, answered the question posed to him, saying that indeed the scribes are right about Elijah's coming, but then he confirmed that it was fulfilled - Elijah did come.
Evidently he was not speaking of a future arrival. The disciples understood this, and did not question him further - Elijah was prophesied to come, and he did come... before the arrival of the true light - the Messiah.

A 19th Century copy of Malachi 4:5, 6
Does the following not sound like a fabricated copy - an imitation?

Báb - Wikipedia
The Báb was a merchant from Shiraz in Qajar Iran who in 1844, at the age of twenty-four, claimed to be a messenger of God. He took on the title of the Báb (/bɑːb/; Arabic: باب‎), meaning "Gate" or "Door", a reference associated with the promised Twelver Mahdi or al-Qá'im. He faced opposition from the Persian government, which eventually executed him and thousands of his followers, who were known as Bábís.
The Báb composed numerous letters and books in which he stated his claims and defined his teachings. He introduced the idea of He whom God shall make manifest, a messianic figure who would bring a greater message than his own.
To Bahá'ís, the Báb fills a similar role as Elijah or John the Baptist; a predecessor or forerunner who paved the way for their own religion. Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, was a follower of the Báb and claimed in 1863 to be the fulfillment of the Báb's prophecy, 13 years after the former's death.

Do Bahais believe Jesus, Matthew 11:13, 14, or not?
I'm more convinced that this fits the false Messiahs Jesus warned against, and that it has no scriptural basis, based on it conflicting with scriptures I mentioned above.

@adrian009

You said:

The way many Christians have interpreted their scripture turns their faith into an "I'm right and your wrong religion" and the JWs if I understand correctly takes it to another level and says to all the other Christians "We're right and your wrong".
The problem with that approach is Christians are not that good and the adherents of faiths they condemn not that bad. Similiarly, can you honestly claim JWs distinguish themselves from their fellow Christians.

Click to expand...

Is this not what Bahais do, when they claim that Bahaullah has corrected the Bible, and cleared up the things that were not clear?
There seem to be much interpretation going on with the Bahai. Why do they accuse Christian of misinterpretation, as though they are the right interpreters? What supports their interpretations?

Jesus claimed to be the coming one - the Messiah. Do Bahais believe he lied, or the scriptures are wrong?

What supports Bahai teachings?
I have found no scriptural support thus far.
The apostle Paul warned against interfaith at 2 Corinthians 6
14 Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

We are all reminded of the one who misleads the world. He also controls it.
Revelation 12:9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

The question is, where do we stand?
Are we supporting the world's political, and religious systems?
According to the book of Revelation, they will not stand. Revelation 17, 18, because they are in opposition to God.

nPeace said:

As I said before, anyone can interpret this prophecy and others in anyway and to anyone they wish, they cannot prove they are right, and they very well may not be.
JWs have an application that fits. SDAs have an application that fits.

Click to expand...

What we can consider here is that these interpretations started back in the early 1800's it was a Christain that came up with 1844. The Bab'i and Baha'i Faiths were yet to be revealed.

The year was predicted, but importantly the day and hour were not and that prophecy dictates we must wait and be prepared for.

That an event happened in the year 1844 or 1260, does not mean anybody had to fit it into prophecy, as it happened when it happened. It is up to us if It fulfills this Prophecy or it does not.

Regards Tony

adrian009 said:

Its good we agree on the Bible as a reference point and that Jesus is the Messiah foretold in the Tanakh.

Baha'is don't believe in Satan as the JWs believe. He is a symbol of our lower nature, our ego and misplaced passions if you like.

Click to expand...

Did Jesus believe that Satan is

a symbol of our lower nature, our ego and misplaced passions

Click to expand...

?
Could you show me the references where I can find that... in the Bible.
Like for example, in the books of Genesis, Job, Matthew and Revelation?
Genesis 3:1-5; Job 1, 2 where Satan went to heaven and spoke with God; Matthew 4:1-4 where Satan tempted Jesus; Revelation 12 where Satan battles angels in heaven, and was cast out; and the other places where he is identified as a liar and deceiver, that will be crushed. John 8:44, etc.

Are you speaking for the Bahai faith, or is this a personal view of various members, because you just raised a serious conflict with the entire Bible.
JWs believe what the Bible says regarding Satan.

adrian009 said:

The belief that different religions such as Islam and the Baha'i Faith are the work of Satan because they differ from Christianity makes it difficult to have a meaningful discussion about our respective faiths. The argument that it must be from Satan because it differs from your understanding of Christianity (that most Christians reject) sounds like how most of the Jews felt and still do in regards Jesus's Teaching.

Click to expand...

1 John 2:15-17
15 Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world - the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life - does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever.
1 John 5:19 We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.
John 12:31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
John 14:30 I will not speak with you much more, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has no hold on me.
Acts 26:17, 18
17 And I will rescue you from this people and from the nations, to whom I am sending you 18 to open their eyes, to turn them from darkness to light and from the authority of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those sanctified by their faith in me.’
2 Corinthians 4:3, 4
3 If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.
Revelation 12:7-12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.
12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”
13 Now when the dragon saw that it had been hurled down to the earth,

The Devil - the ruler of this world controls those things in opposition to God - the things of this world - including religion of this world.

adrian009 said:

As John the Baptist was Elijah before Christ, so too was the Bab in regards the Return of Christ, Baha'u'llah.

Click to expand...

According to Bab, but not according to the Bible, as far as I have seen.

nPeace said:

As I said before, anyone can interpret this prophecy and others in anyway and to anyone they wish, they cannot prove they are right, and they very well may not be.

.

Click to expand...

Yes, anyone can interpret a prophecy in anyway. But what this tells us?

.

JWs have an application that fits. SDAs have an application that fits. I'm quite sure LDSs have an application that fits, and I am sure if we check further, we will find more groups with applications that fit.
None are in harmony, and all can't be right. It's a guessing game, so to speak.
.

Click to expand...

If anyone can fit the Prophcies, then how would God expect the True Christ be known from the false Christs? How would prophecies of an All-Wise God fit false Christs? Is God failing in representing false Christs from the true One?


.

I went through most of the posts. Hard keeping up, but I will catch up eventually.
However, I will start from early on, and come forward.

@InvestigateTruth earlier you said...

What do you think about this...
The Bible says God has sons, one of which is Jesus. The Quran says no.
The Bible says Jesus was resurrected to heaven. The Quran says no... I think.
Are these not in conflict?
.

Click to expand...

Well, the Bible says God has a Son. Quran says God does not have a Son. Bahai Scriptures say both of you are right. Jesus is Spiritually is Son of God, so, you Christians are right. God does not have a biological son, so Quran is right too.

Was it not easy?

.

Also what about the conflict that exists here?
Bahá'ís believe that the founders of the religion, The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh, received revelation directly from God. As such their works are considered divinely inspired. These works are considered to be "revealed text" or revelation.

Where do the scriptures speak of other inspired books that God would use in the end times?
Hebrews 1:1, 2 1 . . .Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

According to the book of Revelation
It starts with these words: (Revelation 1:1-3) 1 . . .A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John, 2 who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, yes, to all the things he saw. 3 Happy is the one who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy and who observe the things written in it, for the appointed time is near.

It ends with these words: (Revelation 22:18-21) 18 “I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll. 20 “The one who bears witness of these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’” “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.” 21 May the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus be with the holy ones.

.

Click to expand...

The proclaimation of Bahaullah is very clear. He has proclaimed that He is the Return of Christ in the Glory of the Father prophesied by Jesus. Nothing less. Indeed He proclaimed that His Manifestation, is the Father coming down from Heaven.

.

You also said...

How would you suggest one go about finding out, or determining who would explain these prophecies?
My suggestion is that we follow the scriptures. (John 13:35; Matthew 9:35; Mark 1:35-39; Luke 8:1; 9:1-6; 10:1-11; James 1:27}
By their fruit, you will recognize them.


According to Bahaullah

So, if this is what Bahais believe, then Moses, and all the prophets after him should agree, to show they are of God.
I find no harmony with the following in scripture.

.

Click to expand...

Jesus said, He has many things to say, but they cannot bear it now. He also, said on that Day, you will no longer ask Him anything, because the Father Himself loves you. Well, put both of these statememts together it tells us, that Jesus Himself will not come on the Day, but the Father will come, and He has many things to say, which denotes the Gospel is not the final words of God, there will be many more God will say. This is how Bahaullah fulfils these prophecies.

.

Rather, I find that Jesus proved to be the true prophet, through whom God would fulfill all things.
No one would succeed him, according to scripture.
Hebrews 7:23-25
23 Furthermore, many had to become priests in succession because death prevented them from continuing as such, 24 but because he continues alive forever, his priesthood has no successors. 25 So he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them.

Ephesians 1:8-14
8 This undeserved kindness he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding 9 by making known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. Yes, in him 11 with whom we are in union and were assigned as heirs, having been foreordained according to the purpose of the one who accomplishes all things as he decides according to his will, 12 so that we who have been first to hope in the Christ should serve for the praise of his glory. 13 But you also hoped in him after you heard the word of truth, the good news about your salvation. After you believed, you were sealed by means of him with the promised holy spirit, 14 which is a token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of releasing God’s own possession by a ransom, to his glorious praise.
.

Click to expand...

Ok.

.

Are these scriptures not clear enough to help us appreciate that God does not appoint a successor to his anointed one - the Christ? According to scripture, there is no successor.
.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

.

Can you give one scriptural reason why we should accept a nineteenth century self proclaimed Messiah and prophet, that would later write books claiming to be from god?
Al-Qa'im (person) - Wikipedia
Al-Qāʾim (Arabic: القائم‎ "He Who Arises") is a messiah-like figure in Shia Islam, sometimes referred to as the Mahdi, but distinctly of a Shiʿa tradition. Believers in Babism and the Bahá'í Faith both consider the Báb (1819-1850) to have been the Qāʾim.
.

Click to expand...

The fulfilled prophecies. The new Revelation. The Person of Bahaullah is the greatest proof, but it needs good investigation.

.

Did Jesus not warn against this?
Jesus gave this warning in Matthew 24
4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned you. 26 Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

.

Click to expand...

Yes, but just because there will be false Messiahs, does not mean, there won't be the real One. Right?


.

There is only one redeemer, according to scripture, is that not so?
So what are Bahais following, the scriptures, of self proclaimed Messiahs?
Can't say we haven't been warned.

Click to expand...

Cannot God self claim?

nPeace said:

Is this not what Bahais do, when they claim that Bahaullah has corrected the Bible, and cleared up the things that were not clear?
There seem to be much interpretation going on with the Bahai. Why do they accuse Christian of misinterpretation, as though they are the right interpreters? What supports their interpretations?

Click to expand...

The Baha'is do interpret the Bible but we don't believe in a literal Satan and we certainly don't accuse those who have beliefs different from ours as being deceived by the Devil.

The Baha'is see God as working through all peoples and having inspired the main religions. That's very different from what the JWs believe.

We see the greater plan of God as the positive changes humanity has made including the establishment of the foundations of a lasting peace, the equality of men and women, the abolition of slavery, and a view that humanity is one.

nPeace said:

Jesus claimed to be the coming one - the Messiah. Do Bahais believe he lied, or the scriptures are wrong?

Click to expand...

Of course not. Why are you asking a question you know the answer to?

nPeace said:

What supports Bahai teachings?

Click to expand...

The Baha'i Teachings reflect God's plan for humanity. Many of the Baha'is here can easily demonstrate truth of the Baha'i Teachings based on the Bible we both believe in. However I personally avoid arguments about religion. You have your belief and I have mine. Its is only because you and one of your JWs have publically accused the Baha'is of following Satan I am defending my faith. There is limited benefit for either of us going into depth about scripture we are unlikely to agree on.

nPeace said:

I have found no scriptural support thus far.

Click to expand...

So what? The Jews find that not one verse of the Tanakh supports Christ. That doesn't mean Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah. The truth or otherwise of the Baaha'u'llah stands or falls if He is who He says He is. You wish to disprove the Baha'i Teachings. Its a debate section of this forum. I'll happily defend my faith.

nPeace said:

The apostle Paul warned against interfaith at 2 Corinthians 6
14 Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

Click to expand...

Are you quoting this verse because the word Belial sounds a little like Baha'i? The Baha'i Faith is founded on the Oneness of God and His Prophets. We are not a pagan religion. Why don't you education yourself about other religions instead of quoting random verses?

nPeace said:

We are all reminded of the one who misleads the world. He also controls it.
Revelation 12:9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

Click to expand...

Why do you quote from this biblical book in such a manner? The dragon could be anything. Next you will be calling the Baha'i Faith the dragon or attributing one of its heads to us.

nPeace said:

The question is, where do we stand?
Are we supporting the world's political, and religious systems?
According to the book of Revelation, they will not stand. Revelation 17, 18, because they are in opposition to God.

Click to expand...

There are aspects of the world's religious and political system that are progressive and in line God's will. The belief that the existing world order is the beast in the book of revelation if pure imagination from those who founded the JWs and were confused and agitated by the changes they saw in the world.

InvestigateTruth said:

I think i know the point @adrian009 was making by referring to return of Elijah.
Conceptually, the Bible teaches that the return of a prophet is not physical. John was the return of Elijah, even though, He was not physically Elijah.
Likewise, when Jesus promised He returns, it does not have to be a physical return of the same person, but a new Christ who spiritually is the return of Jesus is in line with the Scripture and Logic. Did not Jesus say, He shall come back with a new name? Therefore, if He returns spiritually, what excuse can be made for rejecting Him? Can anyone say, No, you are not return of Christ because your body and name is not Jesus? If this excuse is acceptable, then, rejection of John as Return of Eijah would have also been acceptable. Now, do you see the connection?

The proof that Jesus did not mean He physically returns, is the fact that no where in old testament says that Messiah will leave the world the first time, and that same Messiah returns again.

Click to expand...

Where did Jesus say Elijah would return with a new name???

Trailblazer said:

Not only that, but Jesus said he was not coming back...
Jesus said that He had finished the work that God gave Him to do and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father. This indicates that Jesus never planned to return (I am no more in the world) and there was no need to return since He finished the work God gave Him to do.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
​

Then in the next chapter you have these verses:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
​

These two verses completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world, or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to (1) glorify God (glorified thee on the earth) and (2) that I should bear witness unto the truth. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to be IN this world again.
That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

Click to expand...

???
John 14:1-4
1. . .“Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me. 2 In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be. 4 And where I am going YOU know the way.”

Acts 1:10, 11
10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, also, look! two men in white garments stood alongside them, 11 and they said: “Men of Galilee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky.”

Matthew 24:42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Matthew 24:44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it.
45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?
46 Happy is that slave if his master on coming finds him doing so!
47 Truly I say to you, he will appoint him over all his belongings.

Mark 13:26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Revelation 1:7 Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.

Luke 12:35-40
35 “Be dressed and ready and have your lamps burning, 36 and you should be like men waiting for their master to return from the marriage, so when he comes and knocks, they may at once open to him. 37 Happy are those slaves whom the master on coming finds watching! Truly I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at the table and will come alongside and minister to them. 38 And if he comes in the second watch, even if in the third, and finds them ready, happy are they! 39 But know this, if the householder had known at what hour the thief would come, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also, keep ready, because at an hour that you do not think likely, the Son of man is coming.”

Matthew 24:29-31
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

nPeace said:

?
Could you show me the references where I can find that... in the Bible.
Like for example, in the books of Genesis, Job, Matthew and Revelation?
Genesis 3:1-5; Job 1, 2 where Satan went to heaven and spoke with God; Matthew 4:1-4 where Satan tempted Jesus; Revelation 12 where Satan battles angels in heaven, and was cast out; and the other places where he is identified as a liar and deceiver, that will be crushed. John 8:44, etc.

Are you speaking for the Bahai faith, or is this a personal view of various members, because you just raised a serious conflict with the entire Bible.
JWs believe what the Bible says regarding Satan.

Click to expand...

When Peter misunderstood Jesus's intent He called Him Satan.

Matthew 16:3

I think we need to take it symbolically instead of literally, don't you?

Jesus when He spent 40 days in the desert was simply being prepared for His Ministry. 40 is a number that comes up a lot in the bible and is a symbol of testing, 40 years in the desert for example. So too is Satan symbolic.

Satan as he appears in the story Job is more like one of God's ministers or counsellors. Very different to how you view him. The story sounds quite allegorical to me, not to be taken literally.

nPeace said:

1 John 2:15-17
15 Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world - the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life - does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever.
1 John 5:19 We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.
John 12:31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
John 14:30 I will not speak with you much more, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has no hold on me.
Acts 26:17, 18
17 And I will rescue you from this people and from the nations, to whom I am sending you 18 to open their eyes, to turn them from darkness to light and from the authority of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those sanctified by their faith in me.’
2 Corinthians 4:3, 4
3 If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.
Revelation 12:7-12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.
12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”
13 Now when the dragon saw that it had been hurled down to the earth,

The Devil - the ruler of this world controls those things in opposition to God - the things of this world - including religion of this world.

Click to expand...

You give your imaginary Satan a lot power by the extent you talk about him and believe him to be real. Its sounds like the superstitious beliefs of those who practice animism and the like. Its nothing to do with the Gospel of Christ though. I focus entirely on Christ to avoid this type of negative preoccupation. The Holy Personage of Christ completely conquers the need for such unhelpful ideology.

nPeace said:

According to Bab, but not according to the Bible, as far as I have seen.

Click to expand...

The point of my previous post was twofold.

One to illustrate the recurring themes that occur with the Advent of each Messiah. So the first is that verses in the Tanakh that implied Jesus could be the Messiah were also used in the New Testament in regards the second coming.

The second point was there is no reason to believe Christ's return will be the same Jesus two thousand years ago, anymore than John the Baptist was actually Elijah.

That was the whole point of this post:

Disagreements regarding Chosen Ones of God

nPeace said:

Where did Jesus say Elijah would return with a new name???

Click to expand...

Jesus said, i will come with a new name, the new name of my Father. I was referring to this, not Elijah. But, the first time Elijah was promised to come by Jewish prophets, He came as John, though the Jewish prophets did not say, Elijah comes as a new person. So, the second time Jesus says, Elijah comes, we can easily understand He means again a new Prophet, because this is how Jesus explains return of Elijah.

???
John 14:1-4
1. . .“Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me. 2 In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be. 4 And where I am going YOU know the way.”

Acts 1:10, 11
10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, also, look! two men in white garments stood alongside them, 11 and they said: “Men of Galilee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky.”

Matthew 24:42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Matthew 24:44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it.
45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?
46 Happy is that slave if his master on coming finds him doing so!
47 Truly I say to you, he will appoint him over all his belongings.

Mark 13:26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Revelation 1:7 Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.

Luke 12:35-40
35 “Be dressed and ready and have your lamps burning, 36 and you should be like men waiting for their master to return from the marriage, so when he comes and knocks, they may at once open to him. 37 Happy are those slaves whom the master on coming finds watching! Truly I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at the table and will come alongside and minister to them. 38 And if he comes in the second watch, even if in the third, and finds them ready, happy are they! 39 But know this, if the householder had known at what hour the thief would come, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also, keep ready, because at an hour that you do not think likely, the Son of man is coming.”

Matthew 24:29-31
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

Click to expand...

One of the fundamental teachings of Gospel is, the prophecies came from God, not from Man, therefore their interpretations also must come from God, not from human. That is, personal interpretations are not the approved interpretations from biblical view.
I suppose the reason you are quoting these verses is to show Jesus said He returns. I agree. When we read the statements of Jesus, in some of them, He said, He comes again. Yet, in some of them, He is saying, He will no longer be with anyone on earth. Both of these statements are true, and there is no contradictions between them. When Jesus is saying He comes again, He is referring to His spiritual return, just as John was the spiritual return of Elijah. When Jesus is saying, He will no longer be with anyone on earth on the promised day, He means, His individual and physical being, just as John denied to be Elijah physically.

Trailblazer said:

All religions were Truth from God, but the followers of those religions did not FULLY understand their scriptures and there was no RELIABLE source one could turn to for accurate interpretation.

The Bible requires accurate interpretation to be fully understood. The Bible was never fully understood, which is why Daniel 12:4 says “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

Many shall run to and fro because they do not understand what the Bible really means; then knowledge will be increased at the time of the end.

That is why Daniel 12:9 says “And he said, Go thy way, Daniel:for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.” Then Daniel 12:12 says “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”

It is reasonable to assume that the Baha’i Faith is the religion that knows what the Bible really means because the "Book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

We do not have to run to and fro anymore. Unsealing the Book means we can now understand the true meaning of the Bible. By reading the Baha’i scriptures we can understand the true meaning of the Bible.

However, the beleivers in the older religions do not want to know what the Bible really means, if it means that the Bahai Faith is the Truth from God, because that would mean that their religion is not the only true religion of God and they would have to rethink their entire belief system. So most people will continue to believe what they believe, unless they are actively searching for something else.

Click to expand...

Hi Trailblazer, would I be right to say that you just took two texts from the Bible, which you say no one understand but Bahai?

Consider:
In one breath, you say - not in these exact words... but - basically, all the followers o the religions of God, do not understand the Bible, which must be interpreted accurately.
In the other breath, you say, Bahai has the right interpretation, so they understand it. Therefore Bahai is right.


Why is your interpretation of those two text right when you apply them to your beliefs?
Why is it

reasonable to assume that the Baha’i Faith is the religion that knows what the Bible really means because the "Book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came.

Click to expand...

?

If some other religion claims that they are right, and you are wrong, why are you right?

nPeace said:

I was forced to break up the post, since it was too long for one.

Spoiler: False Messiahs

The Mahdi (Arabic: مهدي‎, ISO 233: mahdī, literally "guided one") is an eschatological redeemer of Islam who will appear and rule for five, seven, nine or nineteen years (according to differing interpretations) before the Day of Judgment (yawm al-qiyamah, literally "the Day of Resurrection") and will rid the world of evil.
There is no reference to the Mahdi in the Quran, only in the hadith (the reports and traditions of Muhammad's teachings collected after his death). In most traditions, the Mahdi will arrive with Jesus (Isa) to defeat Masih ad-Dajjal (literally, the "false Messiah" or Antichrist). Although the concept of a Mahdi is not an essential doctrine in Sunni Islam though he is popular among both Sunni and Shia Muslims. Both agree that he will rule over the Muslims and establish justice; however, they differ extensively on his attributes and status.
Throughout history, various individuals have claimed to be the Mahdi. These have included Muhammad Jaunpuri, founder of the Mahdavia sect; the Báb (Siyyid Ali Muhammad), founder of Bábism; Muhammad Ahmad, who established the Mahdist State in Sudan in the late 19th century; Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, founder of the Ahmadiyya religion; and Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi. Twelver Shia believe the Mahdi is Muhammad al-Mahdi.

The Bahai Faith is in harmony with Muslim faith which contradicts the Bible, and the Christian Faith.

Spoiler: Bahais Supports Muhammad not the Bible

In Ahmadiyya belief the terms "Messiah" and "Mahdi" are synonymous terms for one and the same person. Like the term Messiah which, among other meanings, in essence means being anointed by God or appointed by God the term "Mahdi" means guided by God, thus both imply a direct ordination or commissioning and a spiritual nurturing by God of a divinely chosen individual. According to Ahmadiyya thought the prophesied eschatological figures of Christianity and Islam, the Messiah and Mahdi, were in fact to be fulfilled in one person who was to represent all previous prophets. The prophecies concerning the Mahdi or the Second Coming of Jesus are seen by Ahmadis as metaphorical and subject to interpretation. It is argued that one was to be born and rise within the dispensation of Muhammad, who by virtue of his similarity and affinity with Jesus, and the similarity in nature, temperament and disposition of the people of Jesus' time and the people of the time of the promised one (the Mahdi) is called by the same name.

These prophecies according to Ahmadi Muslims have been fulfilled in the person of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908), the founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement, who claimed to be divinely appointed as the second coming of Jesus and the Mahdi in 1891 around the same point in time after Muhammad as Jesus had appeared after Moses (thirteen centuries). Contrary to mainstream Islam, the Ahmadis do not believe that Jesus is alive in heaven, but claim that he survived the crucifixion and migrated towards the east where he died a natural death and that Ghulam Ahmad was only the promised spiritual second coming and likeness of Jesus, the promised Messiah and Mahdi.

Source: Mahdi - Wikipedia

Ahmadiyya - Wikipedia
Ahmadi (a global Islamic revival movement) thought emphasizes the belief that Islam is the final dispensation for humanity as revealed to Muhammad and the necessity of restoring it to its true intent and pristine form, which had been lost through the centuries. Its adherents consider Ahmad to have appeared as the Mahdi - bearing the qualities of Jesus in accordance with their reading of scriptural prophecies - to revitalize Islam and set in motion its moral system that would bring about lasting peace.

Spoiler: Ahmad's view - a messenger like unto Moses, in reference to Muhammad

Accordingly, in Ahmad's view, this was the reason that the Old Testament had prophesied a messenger like unto Moses, in reference to Muhammad, while according to the Quran 61:6, Jesus used the elative form Ahmad when referring to that messenger since it reflected his own disposition and circumstances. Further, his reading of Quran 48:29 was that Moses, who himself characterized power and glory, described Muhammad and those with him as unyielding against the disbelievers and tender among themselves which comported with the name Muhammad and with the early Muslims who achieved swift military successes against their oppressors, while Jesus, whose life consisted purely of preaching and involved nothing of might or fighting, described them as like unto a seed-produce that sends forth its sprout, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick and stands firm on its stem.

What say the Bahai... Does Bahai agree with the Quran in these things, or is this a corrupt interpretation?

Click to expand...

That's quite a polemic against the Baha'i Faith.

The fundamental problem with this post is you have muddled two independent religions, the Baha'i Faith and Ahmadiyyas. The Baha'is are not the Ahmadiyyas and the Ahmadiyyas are not Baha'is. You are really struggling to get your head around all this lol.

It may interest you to know that Islam has some similar theological beliefs to the JWs. For example Islam teaches Trinity and Jesus is not literally God incarnate.

Sounds like you have a lot to learn about different religions. I suppose if you think we are all from Satan and then all this crazy book of revelation nonsense is about to happen, there's not too much motivation. Lets just blindly post as many biblical scriptures as possible instead.

@nPeace , you have also asked for a reason for the truth of the claims of Bahai Faith. Let me quote one of the many reasons given by Bahaullah.
The following is a quote from Book of Iqan. The Book was revealed by Bahaullah as a reply to questions from the uncle of the Bab. The uncle of the Bab knew the Bab well from childhood. After the Bab claimed to have a new Revelation from God, His uncle had become a follower, but later when the Bab was killed by the Persians, His uncle's had doubted about the Bab. So, He came to Bahaullah, asking many questions about how the Bab could be the promised one, and yet get killed. Bahaullah wrote the Book. One of the reasons Bahaullah gives is the following:

"Therefore, should a person arise and bring forth a myriad verses, discourses, epistles, and prayers, none of which have been acquired through learning, what conceivable excuse could justify those that reject them, and deprive themselves of the potency of their grace? What answer could they give when once their soul hath ascended and departed from its gloomy temple? Could they seek to justify themselves by saying: “We have clung to a certain tradition, and not having beheld the literal fulfillment thereof, we have therefore raised such cavils against the Embodiments of divine Revelation, and kept remote from the law of God”?"

Here Bahaullah is reminding the Bab's uncle, that your nephew had never studied and never went to school to learn anything, specially about religions, yet He had written hundreds of thousands verses, and there is not a single error in them. This is a proof of divine knowledge. A knowledge which did not come from human learning. Now, notice that, the uncle of the Bab, knew the Bab from childhood, and what Bahaullah told him, was acceptable. He knew the Bab never studied. His uncle after the answers from Bahaullah became a believer again, and He sacrifice his life for His belief.

InvestigateTruth said:

When we look at various major Religions, we find that, always there are disagreements if a Leader is truly chosen by God or not.
For example, Jews expect the Messiah, but they did not agree with Christian view, who believed Jesus was the true Messiah.
Likewise, Muslims believe Muhammad was a promised One by Jesus but Christians do not see it that way.
Same disagreements are seen with regards to the Bab and Bahaullah, as the promised Ones of other Religions.
Even, within Islam, there was a disagreement between Sunnis and Shias about Ali, being the divinely chosen successor of Muhammad.

Now, those who are on the believer side, very often quote from Holy Books as an evidence.
For example, Muslims can quote from the Bible those verses regarding Muhammad as the promised one... likewise Christians quote from Jewish Scriptures to show how Jesus is that same Messiah.
Shias also quote from Quran to prove that Ali is chose by God.


Question: why there is always disagreement about interpretations of the Books of God when it comes to those verses related to a promised person? Can we say God cannot get His message clear to prevent disagreements?

Click to expand...

But the question is, When were the chosen ones of God Chosen.
What did they do, to be chosen of God.
To be here on Earth?
The chosen ones of God, are actually God's elect and God's very elect.
So the question is, when were they chosen to be God's elect and very elect.
What's the difference between
the Elect of God and the Very Elect of God?
When and why did God chosen them, What did they do, to be Chosen by God?

Faithofchristian said:

But the question is, When were the chosen ones of God Chosen.
What did they do, to be chosen of God.
To be here on Earth?
The chosen ones of God, are actually God's elect and God's very elect.
So the question is, when were they chosen to be God's elect and very elect.
What's the difference between
the Elect of God and the Very Elect of God?
When and why did God chosen them, What did they do, to be Chosen by God?

Click to expand...

They are good questions.

Sorry I do jot have much time and I am sure you will get an answer posted.

The messengers of God are of the holy Spirit, they are the cause of creation, they have no beginning and no end. They are the First and the Last

In each age when God gives a Message a Person is born of this Holy Spirit in the Human form. I see Christ showed this by the story of the Virgin Birth. This story shows that the Messengers are born without attachments to this world.

There is much more to this. Must go.

Regards Tony

nPeace said:

John 14:1-4
1. . .“Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me. 2 In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be. 4 And where I am going YOU know the way.”

Click to expand...

“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” John 14:3 KJV

I will come again, what does that mean? It does not say “I will come to earth again.”

If Jesus went to heaven to prepare a place for the disciples, and Jesus was going to receive them onto Himself where He was so they could be there also, Jesus would receive them where He was, in heaven. What would come again is the Spirit of Christ, in the Person of Baha’u’llah.

nPeace said:

Acts 1:10, 11
10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, also, look! two men in white garments stood alongside them, 11 and they said: “Men of Galilee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky.”

Click to expand...

The disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven.

It does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits.

Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

nPeace said:

Matthew 24:42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Click to expand...

Jesus did not say “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day I am coming.” Why wouldn’t Jesus say I am coming if Jesus planned to come?

Christians have assumed Lord refers to Jesus but Jesus was the Son of God, not God (Lord). Baha’u’llah was Lord because he came in the Station of the Father.

Nowhere in the New Testament did Jesus ever say He was coming back in the first person. It was always in the third person that Jesus spoke. He referred to the Son of man in the clouds and Christians just assumed that Jesus was referring to Himself, because Jesus was the Son of man. The caveat is that Jesus was not the only Son of man. Baha’u’llah was also the Son of man, the return of the Christ Spirit.

nPeace said:

Matthew 24:44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it.
45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?
46 Happy is that slave if his master on coming finds him doing so!
47 Truly I say to you, he will appoint him over all his belongings.

Mark 13:26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Revelation 1:7 Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.

Luke 12:35-40
35 “Be dressed and ready and have your lamps burning, 36 and you should be like men waiting for their master to return from the marriage, so when he comes and knocks, they may at once open to him. 37 Happy are those slaves whom the master on coming finds watching! Truly I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at the table and will come alongside and minister to them. 38 And if he comes in the second watch, even if in the third, and finds them ready, happy are they! 39 But know this, if the householder had known at what hour the thief would come, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also, keep ready, because at an hour that you do not think likely, the Son of man is coming.”

Matthew 24:29-31
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

Click to expand...

All these prophecies have been fulfilled by Baha’u’llah. I have discussed them at length with Christians so I have them all written up and saved in Word documents, in case you want me to explain them later, but for now I would like to stick with the main point regarding the Son of man in the clouds.

It is impossible for the same man Jesus to return in the same body because the physical body of the same man Jesus is not still alive in heaven; although the soul of Jesus is very much alive in heaven, Jesus never promised to return to earth.

There is no atmosphere in heaven; it is s purely spiritual world, so a physical body cannot live in heaven. Only a spiritual body can live in heaven. What returned from heaven when Christ returned was the Spirit of Christ and it manifested as another soul in another body. God sent the soul of Bahaullah and it then became associated with the body of Baha’u’llah, just as the soul of Jesus became associated with the body of Jesus when Jesus was born from the womb of Mary.


Did you ever wonder why Jesus did not say “And then shall they see me coming in the clouds with great power and glory?”

The title Son of man does not apply exclusively to Jesus, as I noted above. It also applies to Baha’u’llah. Both Jesus and Baha’u’llah wee the Son of man because both were a Messiah.

To explain in brief, Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.

Baha’u’llah explained the meaning of clouds in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. He devoted quite a bit of text to explaining what clouds means. To paraphrase Baha’u’llah, Son of man coming on the clouds means that the return of the Christ Spirit will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, the desires of men hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ. Thus the meaning of clouds is symbolic, not literal. Their judgment was clouded.