Gravitational waves in Newton theory are 4-th order, in Einstein's are 2-nd!!!

blü 2 said:

I suspect we may have been here before. Still, you really don't bother to read your bible, do you, so here, or here again, is a sample of quotes that will tell you a little about the cosmology of the ancients. Enjoy!

1. Flat earth. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Genesis 1
2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. ... 6 And God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

2. Geocentry. The earth is flat and the sun goes round it.
Joshua 10
12 Then spoke Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, “Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon.” 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.

3. Geocentry, earth immovable.
1 Chronicles 16:
29 Ascribe to the LORD the glory due his name; bring an offering, and come before him! Worship the LORD in holy array; 30 tremble before him, all the earth; yea, the world stands firm, never to be moved.

4. Geocentry, earth immovable.
Job 9
6 who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars tremble; 7 who commands the sun, and it does not rise; who seals up the stars; 8 who alone stretched out the heavens, and trampled the waves of the sea;

5. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome
Job 22
12 “Is not God high in the heavens? See the highest stars, how lofty they are! 13 Therefore you say, ‘What does God know? Can he judge through the deep darkness? 14 Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the vault of heaven.’

6. The dome of the sky rests on pillars.
Job 26:
11 “The pillars of heaven tremble, and are astounded at his rebuke.”

7. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Job 37
18 Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?

8. The stars are adjacent to each other and the earth on the fixed dome.
Job 38
7 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

9. The earth is flat.
Job 38:
13 That it might take hold of the skirts of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?

10. The earth is flat. The sun goes round it.
Psalm 19
4 yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, 5 which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man runs its course with joy. 6 Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them; and there is nothing hid from its heat.

11. Geocentry. The earth is fixed.
Psalm 93:
1 The LORD reigns; he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed, he is girded with strength. Yea, the world is established; it shall never be moved;

12. Geocentry. The earth is fixed.
Psalm 96
10 Say among the nations, “The LORD reigns! Yea, the world is established, it shall never be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity.”

13. Geocentry. The earth is fixed. The earth is flat and rests on foundations.
Psalm 102
25 Of old thou didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

14. Geocentry. The earth is fixed.
Psalm 104
5 Thou didst set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be shaken.

15. Geocentry. The earth is fixed. The earth is flat.
Ecclesiastes 1:
5 “The sun rises and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.”

16. The earth is flat, like a table.
Isaiah 11:
12 And he will raise an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

17. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Isaiah 14
13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’

18. The earth is flat, like a plate.
Isaiah 40
22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;

19. The heavens go round the earth.
Isaiah 45
12 I made the earth, and created man upon it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.

20. Geocentry. The earth is fixed.
Isaiah 48
13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.

21. The earth is flat like a table.
Jeremiah 16:
19 O LORD, my strength, and my stronghold, my refuge in the day of trouble, to thee shall the nations come from the ends of the earth, and say, Our fathers have inherited naught but lies, worthless and things in which there is no profit.

22. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Ezekiel 1
22 Over the heads of the living creatures there was the likeness of a firmament, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads. 23 And under the firmament their wings were stretched out straight, one toward another; and each creature had two wings covering its body. 24 And when they went, I heard the sound of their wings like the sound of many waters, like the thunder of the Almighty, a sound of tumult like the sound of a host; when they stood still, they let down their wings. 25 And there came a voice from above the firmament over their heads; when they stood still, they let down their wings. 26 And above the firmament over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne was a likeness as it were of a human form.

23. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Ezekiel 10
1 Then I looked, and behold, on the firmament that was over the heads of the cherubim there appeared above them something like a sapphire, in form resembling a throne.

24. The earth is flat.
Daniel 4
10 The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. 11 The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth

25. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Amos 9:
6 who builds his upper chambers in the heavens and founds his vault upon the earth,

26. The earth is flat.
Matthew 4
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them.

27. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome. The stars are affixed to the firmament. If they come loose they will fall to earth.
Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken;

28. The earth is flat.
Revelation 1
7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

29. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome. The stars are affixed to it. If they come loose they will fall to earth. The earth is flat.
Revelation 6
13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale; 14 the sky vanished like a scroll that is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong, and every one, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;

30. The earth is flat like a table.
Revelation 7:
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea, or against any tree.
​

By the way, why would you expect the bible to say anything else, considering that this was the understanding of those times and places where the quotes above were written?

I never seem to get a clear answer to that question.

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This is a Gish Gallop. A tactic to overwhelm the opposing debater.

But I will take this:

"By the way, why would you expect the bible to say anything else, considering that this was the understanding of those times and places where the quotes above were written?"

The truth. Like this: Job 26:7.

There's some science for ya!

Hockeycowboy said:

The truth. Like this: Job 26:7.

There's some science for ya!

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Correct, it doesn't hang on anything. It sits.


and

Hockeycowboy said:

This is a Gish Gallop. A tactic to overwhelm the opposing debater.

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I assure you I'm not a professional liar as was the late Duane.

Hockeycowboy said:

But I will take this:

"By the way, why would you expect the bible to say anything else, considering that this was the understanding of those times and places where the quotes above were written?"

The truth. Like this: Job 26:7.

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The statement, part of a poem, is: "He stretches out the north over the void, / and hangs the earth upon nothing."

The most you can say for this is that its author didn't think the flat earth had legs like a table.

And you, like all the creos of my experience before you, do not answer the actual question.

You also forgot to tell me how much heat is generated by rain falling from at least 5.5 miles / 9 km up, at the rate of one meter of water on the entire surface of the earth every 6min 40sec for 40 days. What's the answer?

Let me guess that it's too big to allow any association between the 'frozen upright' animals in your report and our pretended Flood scenario. But if you disagree, set out the science and the maths that clear the point up.


One other point: why don't Creationists carry out objective tests to see what parts of the bible are accurate reflections of reality, and which are not? I guess that boils down to, What test do Creationists use to determine whether any statement purportedly about reality is true or not? I'll be interested to hear your answer.

blü 2 said:

You also forgot to tell me how much heat is generated by rain falling from at least 5.5 miles / 9 km up, at the rate of one meter of water on the entire surface of the earth every 6min 40sec for 40 days. What's the answer?

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This tells me right here, that you didn't read my post!

I dealt with this issue already in the OP.

DavidFirth said:

Circle is not equal to flat Earth. A spheroid has an infinite amount of rough circles going around it. When you look at the Earth you see a "circle." Not once does the Bible refer to a flat circle. Not once.

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Correct! In Isaiah 40: 22; where it is said; "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, etc," the Hebrew term 'chug' is used, and according to Young's Analytical Concordance, 'chug' can be translated as; Circle, Arch, Dome, and Compass.

blü 2 said:

I suspect we may have been here before. Still, you really don't bother to read your bible, do you, so here, or here again, is a sample of quotes that will tell you a little about the cosmology of the ancients. Enjoy!

1. Flat earth. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Genesis 1
2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. ... 6 And God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

.​

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This is the condensed account of creation as recorded in Genesis’.....…”In the beginning God created the universe, and the earth was formless and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep and God’s active force/Spirit was moving on the face of the waters. Then God said let there be light.”

Here is the scientific theory of creation........In the beginning, there was the “BIG BANG” which is said to have spatially separated the supposed infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity, which in my opinion was the White Hole at the end of the Great Abyss into which the previous universe had descended, this event spewed out a liquid like soup of electromagnetic energy in the trillions upon trillions of degrees, it was from the quantum of that plasma liquid-like electromagnetic energy that the earth and all the heavenly bodies would be created, and although, all that the earth was created from, was already there in the beginning, the earth at that time had neither shape or mass, which meant it was formless and void, and no suns had yet come into existence to light up the darkness of the expanding space. But there was momentum within that ever-cooling cosmic cloud of wave particles, which wave particles are the quantum of that liquid like electromagnetic energy, and are not really particles at all as they have zero mass and no electric charge, yet they carry angular and linear momentum.

One would expect, that those wave particles which are the quantum of the liquid like electromagnetic energy, would have continued to expand further and further away from each other in the expansion of the universal building material.

But with the angular momentum of those waves, they collided with each other in nuclear fusion in the creation of the first basic sub-atomic particles. As the universal temperature dropped to some billions of degrees, the dark energy which was the expansion’s acceleration force, began to form into dark matter, hydrogen and helium, with trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron.

As the universe expanded and cooled, more hydrogen molecules were formed, and from these, after some thirty million years of attraction, came the formation of the first gigantic stars, [Massive atomic reactors] wherein was formed the more heavyer elements from which the galaxies would later be created.

And God said, “Let there be light.” Which was not the light from the sun of this minor solar system within our Milky Way galaxy, which solar system would not be created for some nine billion years after those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the bottomless pit.

Bursting into life and light throughout the primitive universe over an unknown period of time, those first generation stars would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, but each one burned for only a few million years before meeting a violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves creating the massive centrally condensed systems called ‘Black Holes,’ in which the greater percentage of their mass was trapped. The first creative day ended as all those gigantic stars collapsed.

Those first gigantic stars, from which the galaxies would later be created and which would have been collapsing in upon themselves, until evening descended at the close of the first day, as the lights of the universe went out, and the black holes devoured each other, and darkness covered the contracting space.

According to the ancient cultures, we live in an eternal oscillating universe that expands outward and contracts back to its beginning in space time. A universe that exists in the two states of seemingly visible matter and invisible energy=anti-matter.

“Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non-being, and again from non-being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all, the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara, or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds would seem as an eternity, or but a moment in time.

‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the “GENERATIONS OF THE UNIVERSE.”

The English word “Generation,” is translated from the Hebrew “toledoth” which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as ‘births,’ or ‘descendants,’ such as “These are the generations of Adam,” or “these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc. And the ‘Great Day’ in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles of endless rebirths that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

Enoch the righteous, wrote that God created an eighth day also, so that it should be the first after his works, and it is a day eternal with neither hours, days, weeks, months or years, for all time is stuck together in one eon, etc, etc, and all who enter into the generation of the Light beings, are able to visit all those worlds that still exist in Space-Time, but not in our time.

A series of worlds following one upon the other-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. This is the true resurrection in which all from the previous cycle of universal activity, who still have the judgmental war raging within them, are born again into the endless cycles of physical manifestation, or rebirths.

The second DAY [Period of universal activity] begins by bringing to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it.

Continued from post # 106. The second creative day.

This is one scientific theory as to the creation of our solar system some 9 billion years after the creation of those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the expanding space.

Whether or not a better theory than that which we have today will develop, time will tell.

This theory would appear to support the biblical statement, that the process of the division of the waters above from the waters below, [See Genesis 1: 6; KJV] or the division of the solar nebula cloud from the greater Galactic nebula cloud, began some five billion years ago, and that the whole process began with the division of the waters (cloud) above, from the waters (Cloud) below from which the entire Solar system was created. This took just a few hundred million years, about 400 million years in fact, and the creation of our entire solar system was completed by about 4.6 billion years ago.

It was from the galactic nebular cloud, which was the residue of the heaver elements that were exploded off with the great super nova, which was the death of one of those gigantic earlier generation Stars that our Milky-Way galaxy would be formed in the second creative period=day, as the active universal forces brought about a division of the Solar nebular cloud [The Waters Below] from the Galactic nebular cloud [The Waters Above].

The accretion of the galactic nebula disk, which was being attracted to the central Black Hole around which it had begun to orbit, transferred angular momentum outward as it transferred mass inward, it was this that caused our solar nebula to begin to rotate and condense inward, bringing a division of the solar cloud, from the galactic cloud, or the waters above from the waters below.

Within the greater galactic nebular cloud, which was slowly beginning to revolve around the Black Hole that anchored it in space, a piece of the larger cloud complex started to collapse about five billion years ago. The cloud complex had already been "polluted" with dust grains from previous generations of stars, so it was possible to form the rocky terrestrial planets as gravity pulled the gas and dust together, forming a solar nebula. As the cloud=waters of the solar nebula collapsed, its slight rotation increased. This is because of the conservation of angular momentum.

Just like a dancer who spins faster as she pulls in her arms, the cloud began to spin as it collapsed. Eventually, the cloud grew hotter and denser in the centre, with a disk of gas and dust surrounding it that was hot in the centre but cool at the edges. As the disk got thinner and thinner, particles began to stick together and form clumps. Some clumps got bigger, as particles and small clumps stuck to them, eventually forming planets or moons. Genesis 1: 6—9. As the heavenly cloud was gathered together in one place, dry land, or rather planets began to form. Near the centre of the condensing cloud, where planets like earth formed, only rocky material could stand the great heat. Icy matter settled in the outer regions of the disk along with rocky material, where the giant planets like Jupiter formed.

As the cloud continued to fall in, the centre would get so hot that it would eventually become a star and with a strong stellar wind, would blow away most of the gas and dust from which the planets of the solar system had been formed.

By studying meteorites, which are thought to be left over from this early phase of the solar system, scientists have found that the solar system is about 4.6 billion years old! As the solar nebula collapsed, the gas and dust heated up through collisions among the particles. The solar nebula heated up to around 3000 K so everything was in a gaseous form. The solar nebula's composition was similar to the present-day Sun's composition: about 93% hydrogen, 6% helium, and about 1% silicates and iron, and the density of the gas and dust increased toward the core where the proto-sun was: [PROTO SUN.]. The inner, denser regions collapsed more quickly than the outer regions.

Around Jupiter's distance from the proto-Sun the temperature was cool enough to freeze water (the so-called "snow line" or "frost line"). Further out from the proto-Sun, ammonia and methane were able to condense. There was a significant amount of water closer to the Proto-sun, but could not condense. When the solar nebula stopped collapsing it began cooling, though the core that would later form the Sun remained hot.

This meant that the outer parts of the solar nebula cooled off more than the inner parts closer to the hot proto-Sun. Only metal and rock materials could condense (solidify) at the high temperatures close to the proto-Sun. Therefore, the metal and rock materials could condense in all the places where the planets were forming. Volatile materials (like water, methane and ammonia) could only condense in the outer parts of the solar nebula.

Because the density of the solar nebula material increased inward, there was more water at Jupiter's distance than at the distances of Saturn, Uranus, or Neptune. The greater amount of water ice at Jupiter's distance from the proto-Sun helped it grow larger than the other planets. Although, there was more water closer to the proto-Sun than Jupiter, that water was too warm to condense. Material with the highest freezing temperatures condensed to form the chondrules that were then incorporated in lower freezing temperature material. Chondrules (from Ancient Greek chondros, meaning grain) are round grains found in chondrites. Chondrules form as molten or partially molten droplets in space before being accreted to their parent asteroids.

Any material that later became part of a planet underwent further heating and processing when the planet differentiated so the heavy metals sunk to the planet's core and lighter metals floated up to nearer the surface.

Because of its great compression, the core of the proto-Sun finally reached about 10 million Kelvin and after the planets of the solar system had been created, the hydrogen nuclei started fusing together to produce helium nuclei and a lot of energy. It was then that the proto-Sun "TURNED ON" and became our Sun, which produced the strong winds called T-Tauri winds named after the prototype star in the constellation Taurus.

These winds swept out the rest of the nebula that was not already incorporated into the planets. With most of the cocoon gas blown away, the new star itself becomes visible to the outside for the first time. This whole process took just a few hundred million years and was finished by about 4.6 billion years ago. At the distance of about one light year from the earth, is the great icy Dome, that is the boundary of the firmament of our heavens, in which the sun, moon, and planets of our solar system were created.

According to the Genesis narrative, it is on the second day that the Lord calls for a "firmament" to be in the "midst of the waters" to divide the waters:

"And God said, let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under (or within) the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day." (Genesis 1:6-8 KJV)

The term "firmament" according to the Creation account, is taken from the Hebrew: רָקִיעַ raqiya` raw-kee'-ah, which is defined by many scholars as an expanse, or the visible arch of the sky:—firmament, but a primitive root; “רָקַע raqa` raw-kah” means, to pound, hammer, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):—beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.

The creation of the firmament is associated with the placement of some sort of structure, and in some modern Bibles many modern scholars translate the Hebrew word raqia as a "dome" or "vault". The Hebrew language appears to imply that the firmament is a firm, fixed structure (FIRMament, which can now be seen as the spherical cloud of comets (Icy vault) in which our solar system was created from the solar nebula cloud that was divided from the greater galactic nebula cloud.

"And God said, “Let there be lights within the firmament or vault to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

(Genesis 1:14-16 KJV) This verse says that the Sun, Moon, and Stars=planets of our solar system, are "within" the firmament. Therefore, the waters that are "above the firmament=dome/vault" must be above the Sun, Moon and Stars=planets of our solar system, revealing that the waters which are referred to in Psalms 148:4; "Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens," belong to the greater galactic nebula cloud which has become our Milky Way Galaxy.

The Oort cloud, or the Opik-Oort cloud, which is named after Jan Oort, is a spherical cloud that surrounds our solar system, a cloud of predominantly icy objects such as comets that are comprised of mainly hydrogen, oxygen=water, ammonia and methane, and extends up to about a light year from the sun and defines the cosmographical boundary of our Solar System and the region of the suns gravitational dominance. Here is the Firmament, the great spherical vault within which is found the sun, moons and planets of our solar system, the dome of ice above us.

Knowing that the planets of our solar system were already created before the sun came into existence when the hydrogen nuclei within the condensing solar cloud started fusing together to produce helium nuclei and a lot of energy thereby creating our sun, we must now ask the question, “Did life on earth begin to evolve before the creation of the sun?” As is recorded in the Bible. And can life exist without sunlight? Proof of this is to be found in the darkest depths of our oceans, where life has evolved over six miles beneath the surface where sunlight does not and cannot penetrate. This subject will be discussed at a later stage.

The Anointed said:

Here is the scientific theory of creation........In the beginning, there was the “BIG BANG”

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I really like your attempts to compare the creation story (stories) to Modern Cosmology. Well done and tried And I´ll come with some of my own perceptions on this, based on a "more natural approach".

IMO you cannot make a connection to a Big Bang as the ancient stories of creation specifically speaks of a creation in the ancient known part of the Universe, the local Milky Way.

The Anointed said:

it was from the quantum of that plasma liquid-like electromagnetic energy that the earth and all the heavenly bodies would be created, and although, all that the earth was created from, was already there in the beginning, the earth at that time had neither shape or mass,

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I agree very much in the general E&M explanation of formation but not in that "earth" = The Earth in this early stage of this creation story. In the beginning there was no "firm matter" = "soiled forms" or "solid forms". This misinterpretation of "soil = the Earth" instead of "the first solid matter", creates the biblical interpretation of the "two time creation of the Earth" problem.

The Anointed said:

And God said, “Let there be light.” Which was not the light from the sun of this minor solar system within our Milky Way galaxy, which solar system would not be created for some nine billion years after those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the bottomless pit.

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Agreed. This prime light is IMO the central light in the Milky Way from where the Solar System is created.

The Anointed said:

Bursting into life and light throughout the primitive universe over an unknown period of time, those first generation stars would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, but each one burned for only a few million years before meeting a violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves creating the massive centrally condensed systems called ‘Black Holes,’ in which the greater percentage of their mass was trapped. The first creative day ended as all those gigantic stars collapsed.

Those first gigantic stars, from which the galaxies would later be created# and which would have been collapsing in upon themselves, until evening descended at the close of the first day, as the lights of the universe went out, and the black holes devoured each other, and darkness covered the contracting space.

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I think you´re going much to much in "Standard Cosmology" mode here And IMO galaxies are not created from big stars, it´s the other way around.

The Anointed said:

According to the ancient cultures, we live in an eternal oscillating universe that expands outward and contracts back to its beginning in space time. A universe that exists in the two states of seemingly visible matter and invisible energy=anti-matter.

Click to expand...

They "only" knew of the Milky Way Galaxy. Having said that, the ancient world view really was a kind of "an eternal oscillating" world of 1) creation/formation; 2) dissolution and 3) re-formation.

The Anointed said:

A series of worlds following one upon the other-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. This is the true resurrection in which all from the previous cycle of universal activity, who still have the judgmental war raging within them, are born again into the endless cycles of physical manifestation, or rebirths.

Click to expand...

All this is just natural "evolutionary steps".

The Anointed said:

Continued from post # 106. The second creative day.

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The Anointed said:

Whether or not a better theory than that which we have today will develop, time will tell.

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If the ancient stories of creation are correct interpreted and connected to the correct celestial and cosmological context, a better theory/model can never be found.

The Anointed said:

This theory would appear to support the biblical statement, that the process of the division of the waters above from the waters below, [See Genesis 1: 6; KJV] or the division of the solar nebula cloud from the greater Galactic nebula cloud, began some five billion years ago, and that the whole process began with the division of the waters (cloud) above, from the waters (Cloud) below from which the entire Solar system was created. This took just a few hundred million years, about 400 million years in fact, and the creation of our entire solar system was completed by about 4.6 billion years ago.

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I largely go along with that. "Clouds" is mythically described as "rivers and waters in the Sky", "hence the division of waters" in the biblical telling.

The Anointed said:

It was from the galactic nebular cloud, which was the residue of the heaver elements that were exploded off with the great super nova, which was the death of one of those gigantic earlier generation Stars that our Milky-Way galaxy would be formed in the second creative period=day, as the active universal forces brought about a division of the Solar nebular cloud [The Waters Below] from the Galactic nebular cloud [The Waters Above].

Click to expand...

Again too Standard Cosmology mode IMO. I agree in the "galactic nebulae" but I would go down the "electromagnetic road" and have the EM to attract the gaseous plasma into the spherical center of the magnetic circuit. (Nuclear formation via the Z-Pinch effect)

The Anointed said:

The accretion of the galactic nebula disk, which was being attracted to the central Black Hole around which it had begun to orbit, transferred angular momentum outward as it transferred mass inward, it was this that caused our solar nebula to begin to rotate and condense inward, bringing a division of the solar cloud, from the galactic cloud, or the waters above from the waters below.

Click to expand...

Never mind "accretion" as in the Standard Model. EM forces naturally binds gases and particles together which contracts into the EM circuital center as notised above. The very electric double helical current provides both rotational and orbital motions all over the places in micro- and macro cosmos.

The Anointed said:

As the cloud continued to fall in, the centre would get so hot that it would eventually become a star . . .

Click to expand...

In the principle, yes. Except from the cloud was drawn in by the EM circuit and stars (and subsequently planets) formed via the Z-Pinch effect.

The Anointed said:

The term "firmament" according to the Creation account, is taken from the Hebrew: רָקִיעַ raqiya` raw-kee'-ah, which is defined by many scholars as an expanse, or the visible arch of the sky:—firmament, but a primitive root; “רָקַע raqa` raw-kah” means, to pound, hammer, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):—beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.

Click to expand...

This "firmament" resembles in my opinion the very contours of the Milky Way arching over the night Sky and this fits nicely to your next:

The Anointed said:

(Genesis 1:14-16 KJV) This verse says that the Sun, Moon, and Stars=planets of our solar system, are "within" the firmament.

Click to expand...

The entire Solar System is located in the galactic firmament.

The Anointed said:

Knowing that the planets of our solar system were already created before the sun came into existence when the hydrogen nuclei within the condensing solar cloud started fusing together to produce helium nuclei and a lot of energy thereby creating our sun, we must now ask the question, “Did life on earth begin to evolve before the creation of the sun?

Click to expand...

As said above: The biblical prime term "earth" = soil is misinterpreted to resemble the Earth which in fact is created almost similar with the Sun and the other planets. So this question is out of the equation as a result of misinterpretation.

Well that´s all from me for now As said in my initial comment, I´m taking a very natural approach both in the mythical and cosmological department and I´m having a specific Quantum Mechanical EM approach on the general formation - but i refuse other speculative parts connected to the QM as several universes and all that jazz.

Looking forward to hear from you in this matter.

Cheers
Native

Native said:

I really like your attempts to compare the creation story (stories) to Modern Cosmology. Well done and tried And I´ll come with some of my own perceptions on this, based on a "more natural approach".

IMO you cannot make a connection to a Big Bang as the ancient stories of creation specifically speaks of a creation in the ancient known part of the Universe, the local Milky Way.

I agree very much in the general E&M explanation of formation but not in that "earth" = The Earth in this early stage of this creation story. In the beginning there was no "firm matter" = "soiled forms" or "solid forms". This misinterpretation of "soil = the Earth" instead of "the first solid matter", creates the biblical interpretation of the "two time creation of the Earth" problem.

Agreed. This prime light is IMO the central light in the Milky Way from where the Solar System is created.

I think you´re going much to much in "Standard Cosmology" mode here And IMO galaxies are not created from big stars, it´s the other way around.

They "only" knew of the Milky Way Galaxy. Having said that, the ancient world view really was a kind of "an eternal oscillating" world of 1) creation/formation; 2) dissolution and 3) re-formation.

All this is just natural "evolutionary steps".


If the ancient stories of creation are correct interpreted and connected to the correct celestial and cosmological context, a better theory/model can never be found.

I largely go along with that. "Clouds" is mythically described as "rivers and waters in the Sky", "hence the division of waters" in the biblical telling.

Again too Standard Cosmology mode IMO. I agree in the "galactic nebulae" but I would go down the "electromagnetic road" and have the EM to attract the gaseous plasma into the spherical center of the magnetic circuit. (Nuclear formation via the Z-Pinch effect)

Never mind "accretion" as in the Standard Model. EM forces naturally binds gases and particles together which contracts into the EM circuital center as notised above. The very electric double helical current provides both rotational and orbital motions all over the places in micro- and macro cosmos.

In the principle, yes. Except from the cloud was drawn in by the EM circuit and stars (and subsequently planets) formed via the Z-Pinch effect.

This "firmament" resembles in my opinion the very contours of the Milky Way arching over the night Sky and this fits nicely to your next:

The entire Solar System is located in the galactic firmament.

As said above: The biblical prime term "earth" = soil is misinterpreted to resemble the Earth which in fact is created almost similar with the Sun and the other planets. So this question is out of the equation as a result of misinterpretation.

Well that´s all from me for now As said in my initial comment, I´m taking a very natural approach both in the mythical and cosmological department and I´m having a specific Quantum Mechanical EM approach on the general formation - but i refuse other speculative parts connected to the QM as several universes and all that jazz.

Looking forward to hear from you in this matter.

Cheers
Native

Click to expand...

Do you agree, that the sun which is at the centre of our solar system did not burst into life until after the planets were created, as revealed in the Holy Scriptures?

Do you believe that our solar system is a closed system within the Milky Way Galaxy?

Direct evidence for a supermassive black hole – a plot of the orbital motion of the star S2 around the centre of the Milky Way. From these observations, astronomers have inferred that a supermassive black hole of about 3 million solar masses lurks at the centre of our galaxy.

Our Milky Way galaxy is said to be anchored in space by that super Black hole, which has a mass of over three million suns, and around the Super Black Hole at the centre of our Galaxy, orbits many other black holes, which were once at the centre of other lesser galactic bodies that have merged with ours.

The larger Magellanic Cloud (Nebecula Major) and the smaller Magellanic Cloud (Nebecula Minor) are two galaxies that are orbiting our Milky Way galaxy which orbits the central Super Black Hole to which those Magellanic Clouds are being gathered and will one day merge with our galaxy.

The earlier explanations as to a mysterious stream of Gas, which appeared to stretch from them to our galaxy, was the result of gravitational interaction between the two Magellanic clouds, and so, was thought to be coming from them. But researchers from the Leibniz institute for Astrophysics in Germany, taking into account, the best understanding of the diffuse hot Gas that surrounds our Milky Way [Its Corona] couldn’t get that stream of Gas to form. So they came to the conclusion that they simply don’t understand the Milky way’s corona very well, But another possible explanation put forward by them, is that, rather than originating from the Magellanic Clouds, that stream of Gas could be coming from a different Galaxy altogether, which is being devoured, as it plunges into our Milky Way.

The Super Black Hole at the centre of our being will continue to grow as it devours the other lesser black Holes, dying stars, and planets within this galaxy. And yet our galaxy is but one of billions of galaxies that are falling in toward the super gravitational anomaly that is called the ‘Great Attractor’

In 1935, Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen used the theory of general relativity to elaborate on the idea of black holes and worm holes, proposing the existence of "bridges" through space-time. These bridges connect two different points in space-time, theoretically creating a shortcut that could reduce travel time and distance; Billions of light years to mere Kilo-metres.

According to general relativity, the gravitational collapse of a sufficiently compact mass forms a singular Schwarzschild black hole. In the Einstein–Cartan–Sciama–Kibble theory of gravity, however, it forms a regular Einstein–Rosen bridge.

The gravitational collapse of a single star such as the minor star of our solar system, can only form a White Dwarf, the gravitational collapse of bigger stars can create a neutron star, or a Black Hole, depending on its mass, but not necessarily a Worm Hole.

A worm Hole could theoretically be used as a method of sending information or travelers through space, although, physical matter which includes humans journeying through the space tunnels would appear to be an impossibility as any material objects travelling through a worm hole is forbidden by the law of physics as it would be ripped to pieces and reconverted to the electromagnetic energy from which it was created..

But now that it has been discovered that Physical matter is but an illusion, and all is, but the eternal energy, which cannot be created nor ever destroyed, I personally have no doubts that one day new technology will develop a way to teleport bodies of energy along light beams and reconstruct them to their original form, with no damage done. (Beam us up Scotty) Wormholes may not only connect two separate regions within the universe, they could also connect two different universes.

Science is still coming to grips with Black Holes, which are believed to be at the centre of all galaxies, and Black Holes devour everything of lesser mass that comes in contact with them.

Which came first Native? The galaxies, or the black Holes at the centre of the galaxies?

You have stated that in your opinion, galaxies are not created from big stars, it´s the other way around. So then, could you supply the evidence to explain how you believe that the super Black Hole at the centre of the Milky Way galaxy was created from another galaxy, other than beginning with an existing Black Hole that gathers to itself, anything that is of lesser mass?

And perhaps you might care to explain 'WHAT WAS LEFT' after those massive first generation hydrogen stars, which would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, met their violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves?

The Anointed said:

Do you agree, that the sun which is at the centre of our solar system did not burst into life until after the planets were created, as revealed in the Holy Scriptures?

Click to expand...

When looking at the planetary motions around the Sun, I take the planets to be formed of the same larger pre-solar sphere and OUT of this sphere in the early days of creation. In this sense both the Sun and planets were formed similary.

The Anointed said:

Do you believe that our solar system is a closed system within the Milky Way Galaxy?

Click to expand...

Maybe "a local system" in the Milky Way is a better way to describe the Solar System location and motion? Otherwise it´s logical to take the SS to be an integrated part of the galactic formation and motion.

The Anointed said:

Direct evidence for a supermassive black hole – a plot of the orbital motion of the star S2 around the centre of the Milky Way. From these observations, astronomers have inferred that a supermassive black hole of about 3 million solar masses lurks at the centre of our galaxy.

Click to expand...

As said before I don´t believe in these modern terms at all as my approach to cosmology is "electromagnetic and plasmatic" in general. There are NO direct observation of "black holes", "dark matter" and "dark energy". They are all simple assumptions and hindsigt biases made to confirm former assumptions in the "standard models" of which some are directly contradicted (galactic rotation anomaly/curve).

The Anointed said:

Our Milky Way galaxy is said to be anchored in space by that super Black hole, which has a mass of over three million suns, and around the Super Black Hole at the centre of our Galaxy, orbits many other black holes, which were once at the centre of other lesser galactic bodies that have merged with ours.

The larger Magellanic Cloud (Nebecula Major) and the smaller Magellanic Cloud (Nebecula Minor) are two galaxies that are orbiting our Milky Way galaxy which orbits the central Super Black Hole to which those Magellanic Clouds are being gathered and will one day merge with our galaxy.

The earlier explanations as to a mysterious stream of Gas, which appeared to stretch from them to our galaxy, was the result of gravitational interaction between the two Magellanic clouds, and so, was thought to be coming from them. But researchers from the Leibniz institute for Astrophysics in Germany, taking into account, the best understanding of the diffuse hot Gas that surrounds our Milky Way [Its Corona] couldn’t get that stream of Gas to form. So they came to the conclusion that they simply don’t understand the Milky way’s corona very well, But another possible explanation put forward by them, is that, rather than originating from the Magellanic Clouds, that stream of Gas could be coming from a different Galaxy altogether, which is being devoured, as it plunges into our Milky Way.

The Super Black Hole at the centre of our being will continue to grow as it devours the other lesser black Holes, dying stars, and planets within this galaxy. And yet our galaxy is but one of billions of galaxies that are falling in toward the super gravitational anomaly that is called the ‘Great Attractor’

In 1935, Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen used the theory of general relativity to elaborate on the idea of black holes and worm holes, proposing the existence of "bridges" through space-time. These bridges connect two different points in space-time, theoretically creating a shortcut that could reduce travel time and distance; Billions of light years to mere Kilo-metres.

According to general relativity, the gravitational collapse of a sufficiently compact mass forms a singular Schwarzschild black hole. In the Einstein–Cartan–Sciama–Kibble theory of gravity, however, it forms a regular Einstein–Rosen bridge.

The gravitational collapse of a single star such as the minor star of our solar system, can only form a White Dwarf, the gravitational collapse of bigger stars can create a neutron star, or a Black Hole, depending on its mass, but not necessarily a Worm Hole.

A worm Hole could theoretically be used as a method of sending information or travelers through space, although, physical matter which includes humans journeying through the space tunnels would appear to be an impossibility as any material objects travelling through a worm hole is forbidden by the law of physics as it would be ripped to pieces and reconverted to the electromagnetic energy from which it was created..

But now that it has been discovered that Physical matter is but an illusion, and all is, but the eternal energy, which cannot be created nor ever destroyed, I personally have no doubts that one day new technology will develop a way to teleport bodies of energy along light beams and reconstruct them to their original form, with no damage done. (Beam us up Scotty) Wormholes may not only connect two separate regions within the universe, they could also connect two different universes.

Click to expand...

All this is much too speculative and far fetched for me

The Anointed said:

Which came first Native? The galaxies, or the black Holes at the centre of the galaxies?

Click to expand...

I dismiss "black holes"as these just represent a swirling funnel of formation in the galaxies, much like the funnel in a Thunderstorm. The galactic funnel is created as a result of a swirling central electric current and it´s perpendicular magnetic field which creates the galactic disk.

The Anointed said:

You have stated that in your opinion, galaxies are not created from big stars, it´s the other way around.

Click to expand...

Galaxies are made of gas and dust wich is assembled electromagnetically and becomes stars and planets everywhere in the galaxy. This is the very process in all ancient cultural stories of creation.

The Anointed said:

And perhaps you might care to explain 'WHAT WAS LEFT' after those massive first generation hydrogen stars, which would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, met their violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves?

Click to expand...

I don´t believe in these "cosmic explosions" and "collapses" at all. The observation of a so called "super-nova" is just an EM discharge from a star which occurs several times for the same star, thus busting the general idea of "super-nova" explosions. Similar periodical discharges as a principle is also is observed in the Sun.

As you see, I´m much more confident with the EM (Quantum ideas) of everything and I´m also more pleased to take the ancient myths to account for a cosmological understanding as well.

blü 2 said:

I suspect we may have been here before. Still, you really don't bother to read your bible, do you, so here, or here again, is a sample of quotes that will tell you a little about the cosmology of the ancients. Enjoy!

1. Flat earth. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Genesis 1
2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. ... 6 And God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

2. Geocentry. The earth is flat and the sun goes round it.
Joshua 10
12 Then spoke Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, “Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon.” 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.

3. Geocentry, earth immovable.
1 Chronicles 16:
29 Ascribe to the LORD the glory due his name; bring an offering, and come before him! Worship the LORD in holy array; 30 tremble before him, all the earth; yea, the world stands firm, never to be moved.

4. Geocentry, earth immovable.
Job 9
6 who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars tremble; 7 who commands the sun, and it does not rise; who seals up the stars; 8 who alone stretched out the heavens, and trampled the waves of the sea;

5. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome
Job 22
12 “Is not God high in the heavens? See the highest stars, how lofty they are! 13 Therefore you say, ‘What does God know? Can he judge through the deep darkness? 14 Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the vault of heaven.’

6. The dome of the sky rests on pillars.
Job 26:
11 “The pillars of heaven tremble, and are astounded at his rebuke.”

7. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Job 37
18 Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?

8. The stars are adjacent to each other and the earth on the fixed dome.
Job 38
7 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

9. The earth is flat.
Job 38:
13 That it might take hold of the skirts of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?

10. The earth is flat. The sun goes round it.
Psalm 19
4 yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, 5 which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man runs its course with joy. 6 Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them; and there is nothing hid from its heat.

11. Geocentry. The earth is fixed.
Psalm 93:
1 The LORD reigns; he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed, he is girded with strength. Yea, the world is established; it shall never be moved;

12. Geocentry. The earth is fixed.
Psalm 96
10 Say among the nations, “The LORD reigns! Yea, the world is established, it shall never be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity.”

13. Geocentry. The earth is fixed. The earth is flat and rests on foundations.
Psalm 102
25 Of old thou didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

14. Geocentry. The earth is fixed.
Psalm 104
5 Thou didst set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be shaken.

15. Geocentry. The earth is fixed. The earth is flat.
Ecclesiastes 1:
5 “The sun rises and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.”

16. The earth is flat, like a table.
Isaiah 11:
12 And he will raise an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

17. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Isaiah 14
13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’

18. The earth is flat, like a plate.
Isaiah 40
22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;

19. The heavens go round the earth.
Isaiah 45
12 I made the earth, and created man upon it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.

20. Geocentry. The earth is fixed.
Isaiah 48
13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.

21. The earth is flat like a table.
Jeremiah 16:
19 O LORD, my strength, and my stronghold, my refuge in the day of trouble, to thee shall the nations come from the ends of the earth, and say, Our fathers have inherited naught but lies, worthless and things in which there is no profit.

22. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Ezekiel 1
22 Over the heads of the living creatures there was the likeness of a firmament, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads. 23 And under the firmament their wings were stretched out straight, one toward another; and each creature had two wings covering its body. 24 And when they went, I heard the sound of their wings like the sound of many waters, like the thunder of the Almighty, a sound of tumult like the sound of a host; when they stood still, they let down their wings. 25 And there came a voice from above the firmament over their heads; when they stood still, they let down their wings. 26 And above the firmament over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne was a likeness as it were of a human form.

23. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Ezekiel 10
1 Then I looked, and behold, on the firmament that was over the heads of the cherubim there appeared above them something like a sapphire, in form resembling a throne.

24. The earth is flat.
Daniel 4
10 The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. 11 The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth

25. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Amos 9:
6 who builds his upper chambers in the heavens and founds his vault upon the earth,

26. The earth is flat.
Matthew 4
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them.

27. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome. The stars are affixed to the firmament. If they come loose they will fall to earth.
Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken;

28. The earth is flat.
Revelation 1
7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

29. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome. The stars are affixed to it. If they come loose they will fall to earth. The earth is flat.
Revelation 6
13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale; 14 the sky vanished like a scroll that is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong, and every one, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;

30. The earth is flat like a table.
Revelation 7:
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea, or against any tree.
​

By the way, why would you expect the bible to say anything else, considering that this was the understanding of those times and places where the quotes above were written?

I never seem to get a clear answer to that question.

Click to expand...

Yes, isn't the Bible's poetic language & use of imagery beautiful?
I try that w/ my wife from time to time, saying I'd go to the "ends of the earth" for her!

Biblical poetry - Wikipedia

Tools & Resources - Oxford Biblical Studies Online

"The Best of Poetry . . .": Literary Approaches to the Bible in the Spanish Peshat Tradition on JSTOR

(Plenty more, but no Gish from me.)

BTW, in the Bible, Earth can mean people (Not necessarily the planet). Genesis 11:1.

And world can mean arrangement of society. 2 Peter 3:6



How do you explain Job 26:7? How did it get that right? 'Suspended on nothing'? What a crazy idea!
And yet, it is.

Do you think God really has 'hands', to "hold onto" us? Isaiah 41:10

blü 2 said:

Flat earth. The firmament (sky) is a fixed dome.
Genesis 1
2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. ... 6 And God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

Click to expand...

The words you quoted do not say nor imply a flat earth.

blü 2 said:

Geocentry. The earth is flat and the sun goes round it.
Joshua 10
12 Then spoke Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, “Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon.” 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.

Click to expand...

The words you quoted here do not say or imply geocentry.

blü 2 said:

Geocentry, earth immovable.
1 Chronicles 16:
29 Ascribe to the LORD the glory due his name; bring an offering, and come before him! Worship the LORD in holy array; 30 tremble before him, all the earth; yea, the world stands firm, never to be moved.

Click to expand...

Too literal.

That's enough for me. The first three are a 'no-go', I've lost interest.

Hockeycowboy said:

The truth. Like this: Job 26:7.

Click to expand...

"He stretches out the north over the void / and hangs the earth upon nothing."

In other places I quoted, the earth is immovably fixed at the center of the universe, and the sun goes round it. Like the question of whether the earth is flat like a plate or flat like a table, there are various versions. But nothing here suggests heliocentry or any understanding of gravity or orbits.

And why would it? Those ideas were not present in that culture.

To put that another way,

(a) nowhere in the bible does it say there is a solar system, the sun is at its center, and earth revolves around it in orbit by virtue of gravity ─ if that's wrong, please quote me where it clearly says those things ─ and

(b) if the bible's cosmology is from another time, what time is that? The cosmology of Europe in 1200 CE? 1500? 1600? 2000? 2500? Because if it's the cosmology of one of those times, the cosmologies of all the others are wrong. What's the answer?

dybmh said:

The words you quoted do not say nor imply a flat earth.



The words you quoted here do not say or imply geocentry.



Too literal.

That's enough for me. The first three are a 'no-go', I've lost interest.

Click to expand...

The words of Genesis place the earth between the waters above and the waters below. With a spherical earth there is up and down, but above and below are qualities of a flat earth. The firmament as I showed you is the sky, a hard dome you can walk on.

The words of the Joshua tale necessarily imply geocentry. How else can the sun stand still in the sky? Do you think the earth could stop rotating eastward for an afternoon and no one anywhere in the world notice?

And nothing too literal about 1 Chronicles 16 ─ it's one of a number of bible verses that say the same thing, the earth is immovably fixed at the center of creation.


But never mind. Just quote me the part of the Tanakh that says, "You have placed the sun at the center of our corner of creation, and created gravity so that this our spherical earth rotates in orbit around it." That would be a useful start.

The Anointed said:

​

This is the condensed account of creation as recorded in Genesis’.....…”In the beginning God created the universe, and the earth was formless and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep and God’s active force/Spirit was moving on the face of the waters. Then God said let there be light.”

Here is the scientific theory of creation........In the beginning, there was the “BIG BANG” which is said to have spatially separated the supposed infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity, which in my opinion was the White Hole at the end of the Great Abyss into which the previous universe had descended, this event spewed out a liquid like soup of electromagnetic energy in the trillions upon trillions of degrees, it was from the quantum of that plasma liquid-like electromagnetic energy that the earth and all the heavenly bodies would be created, and although, all that the earth was created from, was already there in the beginning, the earth at that time had neither shape or mass, which meant it was formless and void, and no suns had yet come into existence to light up the darkness of the expanding space. But there was momentum within that ever-cooling cosmic cloud of wave particles, which wave particles are the quantum of that liquid like electromagnetic energy, and are not really particles at all as they have zero mass and no electric charge, yet they carry angular and linear momentum.

One would expect, that those wave particles which are the quantum of the liquid like electromagnetic energy, would have continued to expand further and further away from each other in the expansion of the universal building material.

But with the angular momentum of those waves, they collided with each other in nuclear fusion in the creation of the first basic sub-atomic particles. As the universal temperature dropped to some billions of degrees, the dark energy which was the expansion’s acceleration force, began to form into dark matter, hydrogen and helium, with trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron.

As the universe expanded and cooled, more hydrogen molecules were formed, and from these, after some thirty million years of attraction, came the formation of the first gigantic stars, [Massive atomic reactors] wherein was formed the more heavyer elements from which the galaxies would later be created.

And God said, “Let there be light.” Which was not the light from the sun of this minor solar system within our Milky Way galaxy, which solar system would not be created for some nine billion years after those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the bottomless pit.

Bursting into life and light throughout the primitive universe over an unknown period of time, those first generation stars would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, but each one burned for only a few million years before meeting a violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves creating the massive centrally condensed systems called ‘Black Holes,’ in which the greater percentage of their mass was trapped. The first creative day ended as all those gigantic stars collapsed.

Those first gigantic stars, from which the galaxies would later be created and which would have been collapsing in upon themselves, until evening descended at the close of the first day, as the lights of the universe went out, and the black holes devoured each other, and darkness covered the contracting space.

According to the ancient cultures, we live in an eternal oscillating universe that expands outward and contracts back to its beginning in space time. A universe that exists in the two states of seemingly visible matter and invisible energy=anti-matter.

“Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non-being, and again from non-being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all, the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara, or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds would seem as an eternity, or but a moment in time.

‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the “GENERATIONS OF THE UNIVERSE.”

The English word “Generation,” is translated from the Hebrew “toledoth” which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as ‘births,’ or ‘descendants,’ such as “These are the generations of Adam,” or “these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc. And the ‘Great Day’ in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles of endless rebirths that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

Enoch the righteous, wrote that God created an eighth day also, so that it should be the first after his works, and it is a day eternal with neither hours, days, weeks, months or years, for all time is stuck together in one eon, etc, etc, and all who enter into the generation of the Light beings, are able to visit all those worlds that still exist in Space-Time, but not in our time.

A series of worlds following one upon the other-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. This is the true resurrection in which all from the previous cycle of universal activity, who still have the judgmental war raging within them, are born again into the endless cycles of physical manifestation, or rebirths.

The second DAY [Period of universal activity] begins by bringing to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it.

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Thank you for that.

As a materialist, I prefer to get my physics and cosmology from the scientists.

blü 2 said:

The words of Genesis place the earth between the waters above and the waters below. With a spherical earth there is up and down, but above and below are qualities of a flat earth. The firmament as I showed you is the sky, a hard dome you can walk on.

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Ohhhhhhh. You're looking at it from the earth's perspective, right? Zoom out. It doesn't have to be flat at all. Regarding the firmament, that's just an assumption based on that word in english, right? Besides, even if it was firm that doesn't make the earth flat.

blü 2 said:

The words of the Joshua tale necessarily imply geocentry. How else can the sun stand still in the sky?

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Um. Because it's a miracle and the earth stops spinning.

blü 2 said:

Do you think the earth could stop rotating eastward for an afternoon and no one anywhere in the world notice?

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That's the miracle.

blü 2 said:

And nothing too literal about 1 Chronicles 16 ─ it's one of a number of bible verses that say the same thing, the earth is immovably fixed at the center of creation.

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That's not what it means. It means that the earth doesn't sloooooooooop back into it's pre-creation state.

blü 2 said:

But never mind. Just quote me the part of the Tanakh that says, "You have placed the sun at the center of our corner of creation, and created gravity so that this our spherical earth rotates in orbit around it." That would be a useful start.

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That's not my job. Your claim your burden. If it omits those details, it doesn't mean that what is included is wrong.

But, I'll see what I can find. I'm not one to look for science in the Torah. I'm a man of faith. I find a lot of value in that faith. But, I have resources. I'll see what I can find.

dybmh said:

Ohhhhhhh. You're looking at it from the earth's perspective, right? Zoom out. It doesn't have to be flat at all. Regarding the firmament, that's just an assumption based on that word in english, right? Besides, even if it was firm that doesn't make the earth flat.

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Lines, lines! as we used to say in amateur dramatics long before it meant cocaine. The passage says that there is water above and water below the earth and the earth itelf is between the two.

dybmh said:

Um. Because it's a miracle and the earth stops spinning.

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No, the report is specific ─ the sun stops, not the earth.

dybmh said:

That's the miracle.

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Nah, miracles are for ... let's say people with no reasoned factual answer to offer.

But leaving that aside, how does a miracle work? Without that explanation, "it's a miracle" is not an explanation, just a cop-out.

blü 2 said:

Just quote me the part of the Tanakh that says, "You have placed the sun at the center of our corner of creation, and created gravity so that this our spherical earth rotates in orbit around it." That would be a useful start.

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OK. I did a little bit of checking. Basically what's happening with "Torah Science" is, because the text is sufficently vague AND the amount of what is known about the universe from a scientific perspective is vast, a person can link up scientific discoveries with the vague language and ... have some fun. That's the most I think it is. It's fun. On the other hand, for the faithful, like me, it shows that the Torah is NOT false in the way it is describing creation, IF, I keep and open mind. And that feels pretty good.

As an example, for the verse about water "above". There's an idea that this syncs up with manner that the planets were established from the solar nebula. It's the massive amount of ice and and process which is similar to "condensation" which can, maybe, depending on the person's mood and inclination, remind them about this verse wherre water above was divided from water below. And this "condensation" operated on gravitational forces. If so.. in this verse god in the bible did indeed create "gravity".

blü 2 said:

Lines, lines! as we used to say in amateur dramatics long before it meant cocaine. The passage says that there is water above and water below the earth and the earth itelf is between the two.

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A line doesn't need to be flat nor straight. Imagine a bubble with water above and water below and earth in the middle.

blü 2 said:

No, the report is specific ─ the sun stops, not the earth.

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And that's how it would look to the people if the planet stopped spinning.

blü 2 said:

Nah, miracles are for ... let's say people with no reasoned factual answer to offer.

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And the Torah is for people who do not need reasoned factual answers for everything. It's actually a huge asset in life not be bothered by these sorts of limitations. I understand that there will always be things outside of my knowledge, outside of everyone's knowledge. That's a fact of life.

blü 2 said:

But leaving that aside, how does a miracle work? Without that explanation, "it's a miracle" is not an explanation, just a cop-out.

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Not for me. That's what's written in the story, I don't need to dwell on it.

Why is it important for you to have an explanation?

dybmh said:

OK. I did a little bit of checking. Basically what's happening with "Torah Science" is, because the text is sufficently vague AND the amount of what is known about the universe from a scientific perspective is vast, a person can link up scientific discoveries with the vague language and ... have some fun. That's the most I think it is. It's fun. On the other hand, for the faithful, like me, it shows that the Torah is NOT false in the way it is describing creation, IF, I keep and open mind. And that feels pretty good.

As an example, for the verse about water "above". There's an idea that this syncs up with manner that the planets were established from the solar nebula. It's the massive amount of ice and and process which is similar to "condensation" which can, maybe, depending on the person's mood and inclination, remind them about this verse wherre water above was divided from water below. And this "condensation" operated on gravitational forces. If so.. in this verse god in the bible did indeed create "gravity".

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What on earth has "false" got to do with it? Their belief in the cosmology they described was the belief and understanding of their place and time ─ a quality my own understanding of cosmology shares.