Christians can you be certain your bible is trust worthy?

LiveByFaithNotSight · Oct 16, 2018

joelr said:
I don't see the point in pointing out these things? To a non-christian it makes perfect sense to assume the NT writers just wrote stories where the main character fulfilled prophecies written in the OT?

while you may believe them on faith why would someone outside of the religion believe them?
There are many scriptures throughout history that we all assume were written to look like the characters fulfilled prophecies. But we don't believe any other supernatural stories to be true? No matter what it says about Osirius we're not going to believe them as true. So why would a non Christian believe any of those supernatural tales?

There are over 1 million people right now in India who believe Sai Babba can perform real magic. They will tell you they have seen it directly. Forget scripture, they have seen it. Still, most outside the religion do not really believe that these eyewitnesses are actually seeing magic?
There are no historical mentions of Jesus except those that mention people following the gospels, yet there are millions of current eyewitnesses to a supernatural man in India right now so if we were going to believe in some magic person it should at least be something with better evidence?

So why would a non Christian care about ancient mythology?

here a excerpt from a article about Alexander the Great

AN EXAMPLE: In the sixth century B.C.E., the prophet Daniel saw a vision that foretold the rapid defeat of Medo-Persia by Greece. It also foretold that as soon as the victorious king of Greece “became mighty,” his kingship would be “broken.” Who would replace him? Daniel wrote: “There are four kingdoms from his nation that will stand up, but not with his power.”—Daniel 8:5-8, 20-22.

WHAT HISTORIANS SAY: Over 200 years after Daniel’s time, Alexander the Great became king of Greece. Within ten years, Alexander defeated the Medo-Persian Empire and extended Grecian rule as far as the Indus River (in modern-day Pakistan). But he died suddenly at the age of 32. Finally, a battle near Ipsus in Asia Minor effectively dissolved his empire. The four victors of that battle eventually divided the Grecian Empire among themselves. However, none of them attained Alexander’s degree of power.

ChristineM · Oct 17, 2018

shmogie said:
Don't attest I said something, when I didn't. I don't decide what a passage means.I ensure I have the clearest understanding of what it means.

What you point out re your texts as a problem or a change, is neither.
\
When the KJV was compiled, the scholars did not have complete access to all of the extant Koine Greek foundation documents ( called witnesses) throughout the world.

Every translation comes from these, it is not a re statement of a previous translation, except, perhaps, the NKJV.

Most, if not all study Bibles identify scriptures like you listed. For example, the NEB has footnotes for these scriptures that will say ¨absent in some witnesses¨ Other study Bibles will footnote the verses, and identify the specific witness document and itś details, including itś location.

These extremely minor and few variations in documents many centuries old do not effect the meaning of the text in any fashion.

You said, and i quote
"The issue is meaning, not, dogmatic word by word consistency"
Definition of meaning : what is meant by a word, text, concept, or action.
Every branch (and there about 50,000 of them) of christianity puts their own interpretation on whatever version of the bible they prefer.

You are welcome to accept that theory, in reality change means change.

So the kjv is wrong and hence all bibles that are based on it. Ok, but millions of christians don't agree with you.

I think you are confused over the provenance of the various different bibles. You said "the scholars did not have complete access to all of the extant Koine Greek foundation documents"
Then "Every translation comes from these", seems to be some contradiction there.

So searching all bibles does not return the same results. Thank you. As for minor differences, my few verses for comparison were few, there are many more.

1AOA1 · Oct 17, 2018

juiwei2000 said:
Judaism. Islam

These are occurring within Christianity.

metis · Oct 17, 2018

shmogie said:
You concede, of course, that your first paragraph is just your opinion, not fact, correct ?

Yes, it's an opinion based on facts.

One makes a huge mistake if they don't take a society's history and culture into careful consideration, so the ancient Jews did not really have our modern western orientation towards history and culture. Here in the modern west, we place high value on historical accuracy, but that was far less important in eretz Israel as they were far more subjective and very adept at authoring various forms of symbolic literature.

Therefore, the minute we impost our objective western history and values on these ancient peoples is when we're likely to be barking up the wrong tree.

metis · Oct 17, 2018

shmogie said:
Opinion, correct ?

No.

shmogie · Oct 17, 2018

metis said:
No.

Evidence ?

shmogie · Oct 17, 2018

metis said:
Yes, it's an opinion based on facts.

One makes a huge mistake if they don't take a society's history and culture into careful consideration, so the ancient Jews did not really have our modern western orientation towards history and culture. Here in the modern west, we place high value on historical accuracy, but that was far less important in eretz Israel as they were far more subjective and very adept at authoring various forms of symbolic literature.

Therefore, the minute we impost our objective western history and values on these ancient peoples is when we're likely to be barking up the wrong tree.

That is one approach, yet, to prove an assertion, fact, supported by evidence must be provided.

BilliardsBall · Oct 17, 2018

exchemist said:
This is rather the sort of thing I was asking in my rather abortive dialogue with Object of Mercy from post 49 onward. (Though to be accurate I was really asking why he or she thinks Christianity is only religion in which truth can be found - something I am sceptical about.)

What is your view?

That the supreme truth of the Bible is demonstrably true, beyond a reasonable doubt, since beyond a reasonable doubt, we can ascertain fulfilled prophecy, truth statements of Jesus Christ, the love of Christ, the excellency of the wisdom literature of the Bible, the Bible's scientific accuracy statements, etc.

metis · Oct 17, 2018

shmogie said:
Evidence ?

If you can't see that for yourself, namely that different cultures have different approaches to various things that also includes their religious perspectives, then there's simply no reason for me to engage you any further.

metis · Oct 17, 2018

shmogie said:
That is one approach, yet, to prove an assertion, fact, supported by evidence must be provided.

See above.

shmogie · Oct 17, 2018

ChristineM said:
You said, and i quote
"The issue is meaning, not, dogmatic word by word consistency"
Definition of meaning : what is meant by a word, text, concept, or action.
Every branch (and there about 50,000 of them) of christianity puts their own interpretation on whatever version of the bible they prefer.

You are welcome to accept that theory, in reality change means change.

So the kjv is wrong and hence all bibles that are based on it. Ok, but millions of christians don't agree with you.

I think you are confused over the provenance of the various different bibles. You said "the scholars did not have complete access to all of the extant Koine Greek foundation documents"
Then "Every translation comes from these", seems to be some contradiction there.

So searching all bibles does not return the same results. Thank you. As for minor differences, my few verses for comparison were few, there are many more.

I didn´t say the KJV is ¨wrong¨. Virtually all translations ( not versions) overwhelmingly agree in substance. One could be a Catholic based upon the KJV or the Douay. Interpretation or exegesis is based upon the meaning of what is written, not in how it is written, or the presence or absence of a few sentences or words.

shmogie · Oct 17, 2018

metis said:
If you can't see that for yourself, namely that different cultures have different approaches to various things that also includes their religious perspectives, then there's simply no reason for me to engage you any further.

Sounds great to me.

BilliardsBall · Oct 17, 2018

It Aint Necessarily So said:
Are you unaware of where science contradicts the Christian Bible? Here's a place to start :

Biblical scientific errors - RationalWiki

It's from a story in Genesis about a Great Flood.

You never got an answer, did you? But that would be the answer - he has no reason he should be believed.

That didn't work out too well for exchemist.

If preaching scripture were persuasive, why are so many people still unpersuaded? We've all heard and read reams of scripture. I'm a former Christian that read the Bible cover to cover three times and attended relatively rigorous didactic sessions on selected books such as Hebrews and Acts. In the end, I was persuaded that the religion was false, and so returned to atheism and secular humanism, which has served me well.

I went through them in order, or began to, but stopped at this canard:

"Deuteronomy 20:16-18 claimed that the people of Canaan were annihilated."

Actually, which I knew before I even looked at the text, God said, "You will [follow this directive] to annihilate them..." and we both see in the Bible where they didn't, where they were reproved, etc.

I'll discuss any one or two of those on that page that bother you. Things were taken out of context and etc.

exchemist · Oct 17, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
That the supreme truth of the Bible is demonstrably true, beyond a reasonable doubt, since beyond a reasonable doubt, we can ascertain fulfilled prophecy, truth statements of Jesus Christ, the love of Christ, the excellency of the wisdom literature of the Bible, the Bible's scientific accuracy statements, etc.

You think you could convince a non-believer of all this, beyond reasonable doubt? How? The bible claims fulfilment of prophecy, but there is no independent corroboration. What truth statement of Christ can you point to that can be independently corroborated? And so on. (I assume you are joking about the scientific accuracy.)

I cannot imagine for one second that a dry exercise in comparing pages in the bible is going to convince anyone who has not already bought the proposition that the bible is the word of God. It seems to me that for Christianity to seem persuasive, it has to "feel" right to the person considering embracing it.

metis · Oct 17, 2018

shmogie said:
Virtually all translations ( not versions) overwhelmingly agree in substance.

Evidence?

See, two can play that game.

BilliardsBall · Oct 17, 2018

exchemist said:
You think you could convince a non-believer of all this, beyond reasonable doubt? How? The bible claims fulfilment of prophecy, but there is no independent corroboration. What truth statement of Christ can you point to that can be independently corroborated? And so on. (I assume you are joking about the scientific accuracy.)

I cannot imagine for one second that a dry exercise in comparing pages in the bible is going to convince anyone who has not already bought the proposition that the bible is the word of God. It seems to me that for Christianity to seem persuasive, it has to "feel" right to the person considering embracing it.

What "seems to you" wasn't my experience, for one. I was able to 1) ask God for persuasive evidence, since the burden of proof is His 2) find independent corroborations of prophecy and the Christ outside the Bible.

I approached my own conversion tentatively, knowing I would face difficult times from friends and family as a Jew. I sought evidence, and found it.

ChristineM · Oct 17, 2018

shmogie said:
I didn´t say the KJV is ¨wrong¨. Virtually all translations ( not versions) overwhelmingly agree in substance. One could be a Catholic based upon the KJV or the Douay. Interpretation or exegesis is based upon the meaning of what is written, not in how it is written, or the presence or absence of a few sentences or words.

I repeat, you said "When the KJV was compiled, the scholars did not have complete access to all of the extant Koine Greek foundation documents ( called witnesses) throughout the world.

Every translation comes from these"

So it didnt have the relevant data, was incomplete but you say it was not wrong. Could you explain how this works please?

Interpretation is what the individual wants it to mean, that is usually weighted by their chosen version of the faith and which particular bible they choose!

Or paragraphs or verses.

exchemist · Oct 17, 2018

ChristineM said:
I repeat, you said "When the KJV was compiled, the scholars did not have complete access to all of the extant Koine Greek foundation documents ( called witnesses) throughout the world.

Every translation comes from these"

So it didnt have the relevant data, was incomplete but you say it was not wrong. Could you explain how this works please?

Interpretation is what the individual wants it to mean, that is usually weighted by their chosen version of the faith and which particular bible they choose!

Or paragraphs or verses.

Do you consider Newtonian mechanics "wrong"?

Or just a version of mechanics that was later found to be incomplete or approximate?

Dave Watchman · Oct 17, 2018

juiwei2000 said:
Christianity derive from Judaism. Islam derive from Christianity and Judaism. These 3 religion got the same god and is the only 3 religion that believe there is only one god. The 3 religions believe its god is one and only true god and believe their god is always right and all other gods are lying evil demonic false gods pretending to be god AKA Satan. However, what if there is a plot twist and those other gods are the real gods and the god of Christianity, Islam and Judaism Yahweh, is actually the one that is truly a lying evil demonic false god pretending to be god? This is especially considering the bible got many disturbing teachings which is why we need the Protestant Reformation and even after that there are still many problem, due to not been able to change the bible itself (it is no wonder the Mormons threw the bible out and write up a new book of Mormon.

**Hyperlinks removed by moderator**

juiwei2000 2nd Beast of the Anti Christ

2nd beast of the Anti Christ. That's hilarious. You're the reason i joined up here. I have a question or two for the satanists. I can now hear the composite beast open it's mouth to blaspheme God and His dwelling place and those who live in heaven. And so i know that the dragon is here now also giving it his power and his throne and great authority. I'll save my question for latter.

I'm 100% sure that the Christian Bible is trust worthy, and true. It's the world's #1 best seller and most translated Book of all time. That alone should indicate that it's not a fluke. But even if i were to try, i can't explain it to you right here, right now. Lets just say i seem to think i have a knack for understanding the 18 prophetic time periods in the Christian Bible Books of Daniel and Revelation. Time will soon tell.

In 95AD the angel told John that FIVE had fallen, one IS and one was yet to come but would stay only for a short while. These turned out to be the seven religious heads or authorities that make up the "church" part of the church and state entity that is rising from the many nations and peoples and tongues. Each of them has a "blasphemous" name written on their foreheads. But it is that 6th head that is the historical identifier that gives them all away as the other 7 must be something of the same kind.

The FIVE that were "fallen" in 95AD were the belief systems that were proven false by Jesus' birth, death and resurrection.

1.Atheism.
2.Paganism.
3.Eastern Mysticism.
4.Mohammedanism.
5.Judaism.

While John was speaking with the angel in 95AD, the new Christian church was just forming and would become what we now call:

6.Catholicism.

In 1517 Martin Luther nailed his thesis to the Catholic church door and would start the newest head on the composite beast that we now call:

7.Protestantism.

Very soon Lucifer will be enabled to step out of the abyss and manifest in our physical realm. He will become the 8th head on this composite beast, Lucifer's theocratic government, the very image of the "head" that was wounded by the sword during the Foxe Book days.

Which brings me to my question for the satanists. At the fifth trumpet the abyss will be unlocked. God will allow Lucifer to appear in our visible realm. He once was visible, now is not visible, and will become visible again and then go to his destruction.

But get this. The first thing that he is going to be allowed to do is to torture and torment and sting his own people like the sting from a scorpion. Men will long for death, but death will flee from them. He's not going to be allowed to hurt any of the trees or the grass or any of the people that have the Seal of the living God on their forehead.

My read on Abaddon is that he hates all humanity because he hates God and we are God's creation. Why would anyone want to worship the dragon? Is this the mystery of iniquity? My advice would be to rid yourselves of all the offenses that you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit.

Why will you die?

exchemist · Oct 17, 2018

Dave Watchman said:
juiwei2000 2nd Beast of the Anti Christ

2nd beast of the Anti Christ. That's hilarious. You're the reason i joined up here. I have a question or two for the satanists. I can now hear the composite beast open it's mouth to blaspheme God and His dwelling place and those who live in heaven. And so i know that the dragon is here now also giving it his power and his throne and great authority. I'll save my question for latter.

I'm 100% sure that the Christian Bible is trust worthy, and true. It's the world's #1 best seller and most translated Book of all time. That alone should indicate that it's not a fluke. But even if i were to try, i can't explain it to you right here, right now. Lets just say i seem to think i have a knack for understanding the 18 prophetic time periods in the Christian Bible Books of Daniel and Revelation. Time will soon tell.

In 95AD the angel told John that FIVE had fallen, one IS and one was yet to come but would stay only for a short while. These turned out to be the seven religious heads or authorities that make up the "church" part of the church and state entity that is rising from the many nations and peoples and tongues. Each of them has a "blasphemous" name written on their foreheads. But it is that 6th head that is the historical identifier that gives them all away as the other 7 must be something of the same kind.

The FIVE that were "fallen" in 95AD were the belief systems that were proven false by Jesus' birth, death and resurrection.

1.Atheism.
2.Paganism.
3.Eastern Mysticism.
4.Mohammedanism.
5.Judaism.

While John was speaking with the angel in 95AD, the new Christian church was just forming and would become what we now call:

6.Catholicism.

In 1517 Martin Luther nailed his thesis to the Catholic church door and would start the newest head on the composite beast that we now call:

7.Protestantism.

Very soon Lucifer will be enabled to step out of the abyss and manifest in our physical realm. He will become the 8th head on this composite beast, Lucifer's theocratic government, the very image of the "head" that was wounded by the sword during the Foxe Book days.

Which brings me to my question for the satanists. At the fifth trumpet the abyss will be unlocked. God will allow Lucifer to appear in our visible realm. He once was visible, now is not visible, and will become visible again and then go to his destruction.

But get this. The first thing that he is going to be allowed to do is to torture and torment and sting his own people like the sting from a scorpion. Men will long for death, but death will flee from them. He's not going to be allowed to hurt any of the trees or the grass or any of the people that have the Seal of the living God on their forehead.

My read on Abaddon is that he hates all humanity because he hates God and we are God's creation. Why would anyone want to worship the dragon? Is this the mystery of iniquity? My advice would be to rid yourselves of all the offenses that you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit.

Why will you die?

Phew! Time for a cup of tea.

Christians can you be certain your bible is trust worthy?

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