What Did Jesus Mean?

metis · Oct 16, 2018

Some people use a lot of words to say so little, often walking around a point rather than addressing it as written and getting to their own point = "word salad". And then match that with unbridled know-it-all-ism and acute judgmentalism and you end up with nothing that can be discussed seriously.

Some simply do not heed the wise words found in Micah 6[8] He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God?

2ndpillar · Oct 16, 2018

Deeje said:
I believe that Babylon the great is a world empire created by the devil to siphon off worship for himself. It encompasses all false religion whose doctrines originate in original Babylon. The canon came from God....what does it matter whom he used to compile it? He can use even his enemies for his own purpose.

Apparently, "his enemy" planted the "tare seeds" "among the wheat" (Matthew 13:25). That would be using the "staff"/"shepherd" , "Favor", to plant the false gospel of grace to the "flock" "doomed to slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7-10). Now that we are at the "end of the age", the "tares" must be gathered "first" and burned up (Matthew 13:30).

2ndpillar · Oct 16, 2018

Deeje said:
We have a very different take that is shared by all in our brotherhood. You see we must all agree or we are in the wrong camp. None of the first Christians believed things that other Christians didn't. No one would believe that the 'tares' are scripture because Jesus said that the wheat were "sons of the Kingdom" which would be his true disciples. The field he says was "the world" so the seeds sown by the devil are counterfeit Christians. These would grow together until the end of the present age. Why do you change what Jesus said?

I think you are changing what was said. The "tare seeds" were planted by the "enemy" (Matthew 13:25). The tares are the plants grown from the seed, and didn't become evident until the wheat bore grain (Matthew 13:26 ). The "good seed" is the "word" of the kingdom (Matthew 13:19). The tare seed is the message of the "evil one"/Devil" (Matthew 13:38-39), who is the father of the tares. You seem to be fast and loose with what Yeshua actually said.

2ndpillar · Oct 16, 2018

metis said:
Some simply do not heed the wise words found in Micah 6[8] He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God?

Who defines "justice"? Who defines "kindness"/loyalty? Who defines walk "humbly"/circumspectly? And if you read the preceding sentences, this is in respect to a better alternative than "burnt offerings" and "rivers of oil" (Micah 6:6-7). I think what God requires is to love your neighbor as yourself. Mark 12:29-31 & Deut 6:4-5)
"Mercy"/"kindness" is the better alternative to "sacrifice".

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

2ndpillar · Oct 16, 2018

Deeje said:
I believe that Babylon the great is a world empire created by the devil to siphon off worship for himself. It encompasses all false religion whose doctrines originate in original Babylon. The canon came from God....what does it matter whom he used to compile it? He can use even his enemies for his own purpose.

"Babylon the Great" sits on the "beast", the world empires, she is not the beast (Revelation 17:3-5). She is the mother of the religions of the beast, and in the case of the Caesars, he was the head of that religion, until the position of the Pontifex Maximus was past on to the heir of Peter, the pope.

2ndpillar · Oct 16, 2018

Deeje said:
The beast with the two horns like a lamb, we understand to be the Anglo-American dual world power...the last ruling entity before the King of God's kingdom crushes all corrupt human governments under the influence of their god, our of existence. (Daniel 2:44) .

The "beast with two horns like a lamb" is the "another beast" of Revelation 13:11 and Daniel 7:24, who will be given time, times and half a time to "wear down the saints", and who is the 7th head of the beast. We are now in the era of the 8th head of the beast, who was, and is not at the time of the 6th head of the beast (Revelation 17:8 & 11). As for the "crushing" of Daniel 2:35, they are defined in Daniel 2:35. America was not one of them, whereas England proper, as once part of Rome, the iron, would be included.

Faithofchristian · Oct 16, 2018

2ndpillar said:
Who defines "justice"? Who defines "kindness"/loyalty? Who defines walk "humbly"/circumspectly? And if you read the preceding sentences, this is in respect to a better alternative than "burnt offerings" and "rivers of oil" (Micah 6:6-7). I think what God requires is to love your neighbor as yourself. Mark 12:29-31 & Deut 6:4-5)
"Mercy"/"kindness" is the better alternative to "sacrifice".

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Would you care to explain exactly what your trying to get at. Not sure what your trying to say. You jump from one thing to another without explaining what you mean.

metis · Oct 16, 2018

2ndpillar said:
Who defines "justice"? Who defines "kindness"/loyalty? Who defines walk "humbly"/circumspectly?

To me, they pretty much define themselves as they fit very nicely under the "law of love".

metis · Oct 16, 2018

2ndpillar said:
"Babylon the Great" sits on the "beast", the world empires, she is not the beast (Revelation 17:3-5). She is the mother of the religions of the beast, and in the case of the Caesars, he was the head of that religion, until the position of the Pontifex Maximus was past on to the heir of Peter, the pope.

"Babylon the Great" was a cloaked reference to the Roman Empire and was commonly used back during Jesus' time. OTOH, the use of "Babylonia" in its feminine form in Peter was a reference to the city of Rome where Peter was.

URAVIP2ME · Oct 16, 2018

2ndpillar said:
The "beast with two horns like a lamb" is the "another beast" of Revelation 13:11 and Daniel 7:24, who will be given time, times and half a time to "wear down the saints", and who is the 7th head of the beast. We are now in the era of the 8th head of the beast, who was, and is not at the time of the 6th head of the beast (Revelation 17:8 & 11). As for the "crushing" of Daniel 2:35, they are defined in Daniel 2:35. America was not one of them, whereas England proper, as once part of Rome, the iron, would be included.

In Daniel's writings ' horns ' are separate governments.
Since ' horns ' are political, then two (2) lamb's horns shows a partnership between two (2) world powers.
Since the ' horns ' are two 'small' lambs horns then those powers claim to be mild as a lamb is considered mild.
Since the beast comes out of the earth, and Not out of the sea, thus it comes out of the established earthly system.

URAVIP2ME · Oct 16, 2018

metis said:
"Babylon the Great" was a cloaked reference to the Roman Empire and was commonly used back during Jesus' time. OTOH, the use of "Babylonia" in its feminine form in Peter was a reference to the city of Rome where Peter was.

I find the Roman Empire was the legs part of Daniel 2:40's BIG political statue image. Others came after Rome.
At Revelation 17 Babylon the Great sits on many waters. Verse 15 lets us know the waters stand for people.
So, it is people and Not Rome.
Revelation 17:2 Babylon the Great commits fornication with earth's kings. Rome did Not do that.
Babylon the Great thinks she is some sort of ' religious queen ' at Revelation 18:7-9. Rome does Not.
At Revelation 18:11 the merchants ( business men ) weep and mourn the loss of Babylon the Great.
Not the loss of Rome, but the loss of revenue because they make BIG business off of the religious world.

metis · Oct 16, 2018

URAVIP2ME said:
I find the Roman Empire was the legs part of Daniel 2:40's BIG political statue image. Others came after Rome.
At Revelation 17 Babylon the Great sits on many waters. Verse 15 lets us know the waters stand for people.
So, it is people and Not Rome.
Revelation 17:2 Babylon the Great commits fornication with earth's kings. Rome did Not do that.
Babylon the Great thinks she is some sort of ' religious queen ' at Revelation 18:7-9. Rome does Not.
At Revelation 18:11 the merchants ( business men ) weep and mourn the loss of Babylon the Great.
Not the loss of Rome, but the loss of revenue because they make BIG business off of the religious world.

Sorry but we pretty much know how the early Church took to the book, including from some other sources, and "Babylon the Great" we know was viewed as the Roman Empire of the 1st century b.c.e. and for a few centuries c.e. until the conversion of Constantine. The Roman persecution of the Church was intense, especially under Nero but also under a couple of other emperors as well. To practice the faith involved the risk of not only persecution but also possible death. There was much discussion and some controversy dealing with the book during the canonization process of the 4th century.

"Babylon the Great" was never applied to the Church itself, contrary to what some now believe.

URAVIP2ME · Oct 16, 2018

metis said:
Sorry but we pretty much know how the early Church took to the book, including from some other sources, and "Babylon the Great" we know was viewed as the Roman Empire of the 1st century b.c.e. and for a few centuries c.e. until the conversion of Constantine. The Roman persecution of the Church was intense, especially under Nero but also under a couple of other emperors as well. To practice the faith involved the risk of not only persecution but also possible death. There was much discussion and some controversy dealing with the book during the canonization process of the 4th century.
"Babylon the Great" was never applied to the Church itself, contrary to what some now believe.

Babylon the Great is the composite of all non-biblical religions as per Revelation chapters 17 and 18.
Process of elimination: Kings are Not B the G, Merchants are Not B the G, that leaves the religious world.
I wonder what the 1st century would have to do with Babylon the Great because Revelation is written for our day.
The apostasy was already setting in in the 1st century according to Luke at Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30.
The ' last day scoffers.... ' that 2 Peter 3:3-4 mentions has Nothing to do with the 1st century time frame.

InvestigateTruth · Oct 16, 2018

Deeje said:
For Christians....concerning John the Baptist, Jesus said....

11 Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 11:11 - English Standard Version

What do you think Jesus meant by this? Please include scripture to support your answer.

By the Kingdom of Heaven is meant the Religion which Christ established. When John appeared, the Religion of Christ had not been established yet, since His mission had not begun yet. The one who is the least in kingdom of heaven, is an allusion to anyone who had believed in Jesus, and had entered His Religion. It is all an allusion to the greatness of the Cause of Christ. It means, although John had a great station, yet, because he had appeared before the revelation of Christ, His station is less than anyone who lives after the Revelation of Christ if he is a follower of Christ, even if he being the least in this Kingdom. The reason is, before mission of Christ the kingdom of heaven had not even established yet for anyone to enter it.

2ndpillar · Oct 16, 2018

URAVIP2ME said:
In Daniel's writings ' horns ' are separate governments.
Since ' horns ' are political, then two (2) lamb's horns shows a partnership between two (2) world powers.
Since the ' horns ' are two 'small' lambs horns then those powers claim to be mild as a lamb is considered mild.
Since the beast comes out of the earth, and Not out of the sea, thus it comes out of the established earthly system.

The two horns like a lamb, are Christlike leaders. The "beast" himself, noted as "another beast" (Revelation 13:11), follows the "beast who had been "slain" and "healed", who was Julius Caesar, the 5th head of the beast of Revelation 17:10, who is the "beast" of Revelation 13:3. These Christlike leaders helped the 7th head of the beast deceive "those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 13:14). That 7th head of the beast, is also the "another" of Daniel 7:24, who will intend to make alterations in times and in law (Daniel 7:25), which is what the Roman emperor Constantine did with respect to the day of rest being switched to the day of the sun, the day of his god Sol Invictus. Constantine's convened Council of Nicaea also changed the law by making 3 gods instead of 1 God. And who carries the mark of that beast? Well all those who are members of his "Christian" church who follow Peter and Paul, the two horns like a lamb, the two staffs/shepherds of Zechariah 11:8. And what happens to the followers of Paul's false gospel of grace/cross, well, they drink from the cup of the wrath of God (Revelation 14:10.

2ndpillar · Oct 16, 2018

metis said:
"Babylon the Great" was a cloaked reference to the Roman Empire and was commonly used back during Jesus' time. OTOH, the use of "Babylonia" in its feminine form in Peter was a reference to the city of Rome where Peter was.

Sorry, but the "woman" (Revelation 17:3) sat on the beast with 7 heads, which included all the kings from the king of Babylon, to the 6th head of the beast, who was ruling during the writing of Revelation 17:10. The beast carries the woman, the woman is not the beast (Revelation 17:7). Babylon the Great, the pagan religion of Babylon, gave birth to harlot daughters, which included the church of Rome, instituted by the Roman emperor Constantine at his convened Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

2ndpillar · Oct 16, 2018

Faithofchristian said:
Would you care to explain exactly what your trying to get at. Not sure what your trying to say. You jump from one thing to another without explaining what you mean.

It means God desires mercy and not sacrifice. He did not desire any sacrifice. On the other hand, the summation of the commandments, is love thy neighbor as thy self. One must keep the commandments to "enter into life" (Matthew 19:17).

New American Standard Bible
"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

2ndpillar · Oct 17, 2018

InvestigateTruth said:
By the Kingdom of Heaven is meant the Religion which Christ established. When John appeared, the Religion of Christ had not been established yet, since His mission had not begun yet. The one who is the least in kingdom of heaven, is an allusion to anyone who had believed in Jesus, and had entered His Religion. It is all an allusion to the greatness of the Cause of Christ. It means, although John had a great station, yet, because he had appeared before the revelation of Christ, His station is less than anyone who lives after the Revelation of Christ if he is a follower of Christ, even if he being the least in this Kingdom. The reason is, before mission of Christ the kingdom of heaven had not even established yet for anyone to enter it.

It was John the Baptist who witnessed for Yeshua, and his gospel, "repent; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"(Matthew 3:2), is the same. Yeshua didn't establish the Roman "Christian" religion, that process was started through the efforts of the false prophet Paul, and was initially instituted and led by the Pontifex Maximus, the Roman emperor Constantine, which position is now held by the pope, as the Supreme Pontiff. It was formally made the religion of Rome by the Roman emperor Theodosius in 380 AD. As for "believing in Jesus", the demons believed, yet shuddered still (James 2:19).

Faithofchristian · Oct 17, 2018

2ndpillar said:
It means God desires mercy and not sacrifice. He did not desire any sacrifice. On the other hand, the summation of the commandments, is love thy neighbor as thy self. One must keep the commandments to "enter into life" (Matthew 19:17).

New American Standard Bible
"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

As to how do you come by all that, care to explain, Which has nothing to do with what the Thread is about
( What did Jesus mean?)

Care to explain where your going with what your trying to say.

Faithofchristian · Oct 17, 2018

2ndpillar said:
It means God desires mercy and not sacrifice. He did not desire any sacrifice. On the other hand, the summation of the commandments, is love thy neighbor as thy self. One must keep the commandments to "enter into life" (Matthew 19:17).

New American Standard Bible
"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

Are you that sure, What if it's not what you think it is, it could be totally different than what your saying it is.

What Did Jesus Mean?

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