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70% of Doctors Are Wrong, Of Course!

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Sounds like you never heard, Hawking was attending church.

Oh, we forgot, that one anomaly is not statistically significant in the face of 70% of doctors! And of course, 70% of doctors just don't understand spontaneous remission, the wonders of the human creation, and the immune system. Should we revoke the 70% of doctors' licenses who already know all this and still testify to you that God heals?!
Let any of those 70% doctors write a medical report saying that God has healed these patients, then we shall talk. Their personal religious beliefs about the issue, expressed in private, are irrelevant. Let them justify their beliefs in clearly written official reports, then we shall debate the matter.
But they won't. Because what they believe here is from mere religious sentiment and they know that they can't justify it from the evidence.
Maybe the US healthcare system is so crappy precisely because the doctors are so unprofessional in their mindset. I suggest a re-education program so that they do not bring their personal private beliefs while practicing the science of medicine.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Intellectually: David Hume is highly regarded by many atheists by declaring that anything beyond natural law is impossible. Or to put it another way, it seems Hume was saying that he knew the limits of all knowledge. Yet today even the most egotistical person will admit that 'we' (humans) don't know .000000000001% of the how, why, what, where, who, when of existence, to borrow from Kipling. Even in Hume's day critics charged that he was using circular reasoning; and that he didn't reply to his critics.

Intellectually and experientially: Dr. Craig Keener grew up an agnostic. One day during his teens he met some rather heavy-handed Christians: "You're going to Hell unless...." He dispatched them with hard counter punches. By that time, he thought to himself, these Christians aren't even serious about God. If I knew God existed, I would give it my all. That night he claims that he had a supernatural experience, the presence of God. That jump-started his life-long quest.

Years later he would be an extremely prolific author. His study of the Book of Acts, 3 million words, has been called 'magisterial,' 'epic,' 'the very best study of Acts....' He also wrote a 600,000 page study of miracles. Many of the cases have full medical documentation. He features over 300 cases of blindness alone.
One of the most famous cases involved a teenage girl with a most severe case of multiple sclerosis. Over the years until she was a young adult, her physically condition deteriorated. At the Mayo Clinic, one physician said she was among the worse cases of MS he had ever seen (the names of the MDs and other witnesses are included). When she was given six months to live (she was sent home to her family) her body was twisted, her feet pointed downwards, similarly with her hands. Her intestines were shutting down, she lost all control of her basic bodily functions. She was nearly blind. Yet through all this she was a Christian.

At this point she had lost all hope, that God didn't hear her prayers. Her story was featured in a radio program. Hundreds of listeners began praying for Barbara. Her cousin was reading some of the letters from these listeners. And then Barbara gestured to her cousin that she wanted to say something. She said that she knew God was going to heal her, and to call her parents. Her mother ran in to find Barbara had ripped out all the tubes and was standing on legs that had been atrophied. Her mom bent down and felt her legs, "You have muscles!"
Her dad began to waltz with her around the room. At a prayer service at her church that night, the minister asked if anyone had anything they would like to add. Barbara began walking down the center aisle, and you can imagine the shock and incredulity. Everyone began singing, 'Amazing Grace.' This, of course, is the famous hymn written by a life-long atheist, who in his own words was the most wretched of men, until he was saved by God.

Another scientific study (not as hard to read as 600,000 pages) is from Dr. Candy Brown. She and a medical team went to Mozambique, East Africa to test Heidi Baker, a missionary there for decades, and the site of many alleged miracles, including miracles of healing.
Over two dozen patients were brought and tested, either legally blind or deaf (because these cases can be pre-tested easily); and then Heidi Baker would pray and hold the patient for a few minutes. Immediately afterwards, the patient would be tested again. The majority of the patients experienced incredible healings. For example, 'Ruth' was an elderly woman with vision tested 300/20 and so deaf that a jet engine couldn't faze her -- plainly she couldn't hear a normal conversation. A few minutes later her vision was 80/20 and she could carry on a normal conversation. Dr. Brown explains the misconception that with so few test subjects the study wouldn't be an 'acid test.' However, with the fewer number, the results are actually more astounding. Her husband also has founded the Global Medical Group to scientifically test the effects of prayer on illness.

A study of over 1,000 American MDs shows that over 70% believed they had been involved in cases that could not be explained by naturalistic means, that they were open to the possibility these could be classified as miracles.

If one is of an intellectual frame of mine, I'd suggest Dr. Craig Evans' 'Fabricating Jesus - How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels.' Evans' 'How God Became Jesus' also is an excellent refutation of Dr. Bart Ehrman's 'How Jesus Became God.' Drs. Gary Habermas (resurrection expert), Edwin Yamauchi (a 'scholar's scholar'), Richard Bauckham (one of the tops in 'early high Christology club' an informal 'club' with a focus that Jesus was worshipped as God from very early after the resurrection) are one of several scholars I would recommend that use the strictest methodology. Dr. John A. Bloom, physicist, has written a fine study of Ezekiel's prophecy of Tyre, which skeptics claim is false, along with the rest of the Old Testament prophecies. Bloom also has written a top 80 page paper on the existence of God.

On a concluding note, the message of God as revealed in the Bible is of love. In 1 Corinthians 12 + the apostle Paul encourages believers to seek the highest Gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are supernatural gifts (sorry, Mr. Hume). While the list is varied, it may not be complete. For example, in times of trouble, sometimes a Christian being physically attacked has recounted the attacker being immobilized by an unseen force, such as the case of a Soviet-era Christian hunter who regularly beat up Christians. After experiencing these things, he became a Christian.

The highest Gift, though, is love. "Faith, Hope, Love ... the highest is Love." And from this we can understand how normal humans can be capable of incredible love. The 'fruits' of the spirit are developed by the normal walk through life of the Christian who learns about God, and tries to apply the lessons. But with the Gifts, God helps one supernaturally.

Paul also writes that 'God is love.' Despite all the skeptics, you can prove to yourself if this is true or not. And that is a brief answer on how an atheist can come to belief in God.
Do mice also pray to God to be cured of MS? Mice also sometimes get cured from MS spontaneously.
Neuronal Repair in MS May Be Triggered by an Inflammatory Molecule - Multiple Sclerosis News Today

In England its traditional to go to church on special occasions or events. Please link evidence that Hawking ever prayed to God. Thanks.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Intellectually: David Hume is highly regarded by many atheists by declaring that anything beyond natural law is impossible. Or to put it another way, it seems Hume was saying that he knew the limits of all knowledge. Yet today even the most egotistical person will admit that 'we' (humans) don't know .000000000001% of the how, why, what, where, who, when of existence, to borrow from Kipling. Even in Hume's day critics charged that he was using circular reasoning; and that he didn't reply to his critics.

Intellectually and experientially: Dr. Craig Keener grew up an agnostic. One day during his teens he met some rather heavy-handed Christians: "You're going to Hell unless...." He dispatched them with hard counter punches. By that time, he thought to himself, these Christians aren't even serious about God. If I knew God existed, I would give it my all. That night he claims that he had a supernatural experience, the presence of God. That jump-started his life-long quest.

Years later he would be an extremely prolific author. His study of the Book of Acts, 3 million words, has been called 'magisterial,' 'epic,' 'the very best study of Acts....' He also wrote a 600,000 page study of miracles. Many of the cases have full medical documentation. He features over 300 cases of blindness alone.
One of the most famous cases involved a teenage girl with a most severe case of multiple sclerosis. Over the years until she was a young adult, her physically condition deteriorated. At the Mayo Clinic, one physician said she was among the worse cases of MS he had ever seen (the names of the MDs and other witnesses are included). When she was given six months to live (she was sent home to her family) her body was twisted, her feet pointed downwards, similarly with her hands. Her intestines were shutting down, she lost all control of her basic bodily functions. She was nearly blind. Yet through all this she was a Christian.

At this point she had lost all hope, that God didn't hear her prayers. Her story was featured in a radio program. Hundreds of listeners began praying for Barbara. Her cousin was reading some of the letters from these listeners. And then Barbara gestured to her cousin that she wanted to say something. She said that she knew God was going to heal her, and to call her parents. Her mother ran in to find Barbara had ripped out all the tubes and was standing on legs that had been atrophied. Her mom bent down and felt her legs, "You have muscles!"
Her dad began to waltz with her around the room. At a prayer service at her church that night, the minister asked if anyone had anything they would like to add. Barbara began walking down the center aisle, and you can imagine the shock and incredulity. Everyone began singing, 'Amazing Grace.' This, of course, is the famous hymn written by a life-long atheist, who in his own words was the most wretched of men, until he was saved by God.

Another scientific study (not as hard to read as 600,000 pages) is from Dr. Candy Brown. She and a medical team went to Mozambique, East Africa to test Heidi Baker, a missionary there for decades, and the site of many alleged miracles, including miracles of healing.
Over two dozen patients were brought and tested, either legally blind or deaf (because these cases can be pre-tested easily); and then Heidi Baker would pray and hold the patient for a few minutes. Immediately afterwards, the patient would be tested again. The majority of the patients experienced incredible healings. For example, 'Ruth' was an elderly woman with vision tested 300/20 and so deaf that a jet engine couldn't faze her -- plainly she couldn't hear a normal conversation. A few minutes later her vision was 80/20 and she could carry on a normal conversation. Dr. Brown explains the misconception that with so few test subjects the study wouldn't be an 'acid test.' However, with the fewer number, the results are actually more astounding. Her husband also has founded the Global Medical Group to scientifically test the effects of prayer on illness.

A study of over 1,000 American MDs shows that over 70% believed they had been involved in cases that could not be explained by naturalistic means, that they were open to the possibility these could be classified as miracles.

If one is of an intellectual frame of mine, I'd suggest Dr. Craig Evans' 'Fabricating Jesus - How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels.' Evans' 'How God Became Jesus' also is an excellent refutation of Dr. Bart Ehrman's 'How Jesus Became God.' Drs. Gary Habermas (resurrection expert), Edwin Yamauchi (a 'scholar's scholar'), Richard Bauckham (one of the tops in 'early high Christology club' an informal 'club' with a focus that Jesus was worshipped as God from very early after the resurrection) are one of several scholars I would recommend that use the strictest methodology. Dr. John A. Bloom, physicist, has written a fine study of Ezekiel's prophecy of Tyre, which skeptics claim is false, along with the rest of the Old Testament prophecies. Bloom also has written a top 80 page paper on the existence of God.

On a concluding note, the message of God as revealed in the Bible is of love. In 1 Corinthians 12 + the apostle Paul encourages believers to seek the highest Gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are supernatural gifts (sorry, Mr. Hume). While the list is varied, it may not be complete. For example, in times of trouble, sometimes a Christian being physically attacked has recounted the attacker being immobilized by an unseen force, such as the case of a Soviet-era Christian hunter who regularly beat up Christians. After experiencing these things, he became a Christian.

The highest Gift, though, is love. "Faith, Hope, Love ... the highest is Love." And from this we can understand how normal humans can be capable of incredible love. The 'fruits' of the spirit are developed by the normal walk through life of the Christian who learns about God, and tries to apply the lessons. But with the Gifts, God helps one supernaturally.

Paul also writes that 'God is love.' Despite all the skeptics, you can prove to yourself if this is true or not. And that is a brief answer on how an atheist can come to belief in God.

Now that Barbara is miracolously healed, could you please redirect your prayers so that God saves the about 30,000 thousands kids who are going to die tomorrow?

Thanks. Can’t wait to hear about that miracle tomorrow.

Praise be.

Ciao

- viole
 
Last edited:

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Part of wisdom is knowing when to ask someone (even a doctor) for help and knowing when tell (even a doctor) to go smoke his hash somewhere else.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Why do you suppose god hates amputees?
God does not hate amputees. God is Love. How do you know there are no amputees being healed anywhere in the world today? You don't. While Jesus walked on earth He and the apostles went around and healed the lame and those with leprosy who may have and often were missing limps or fingers or toes, making them whole again. The point of miracles, though, was foremost to point to who Jesus Christ was as God and Savior. Today the areas where the most physical healing takes place are in areas where the gospel is reaching those who have never heard the good news of Christ. They are signposts. Even so, those who are healed, still eventually die like everyone else. God's plan is about eternal life, not healing everyone on earth now. God uses people's lives in a variety of ways and in His wisdom He chooses when and how to heal or not. But all will have perfect health who receive eternal life, including amputees.


Why won't God heal amputees?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Intellectually: David Hume is highly regarded by many atheists by declaring that anything beyond natural law is impossible. Or to put it another way, it seems Hume was saying that he knew the limits of all knowledge. Yet today even the most egotistical person will admit that 'we' (humans) don't know .000000000001% of the how, why, what, where, who, when of existence, to borrow from Kipling. Even in Hume's day critics charged that he was using circular reasoning; and that he didn't reply to his critics.

Intellectually and experientially: Dr. Craig Keener grew up an agnostic. One day during his teens he met some rather heavy-handed Christians: "You're going to Hell unless...." He dispatched them with hard counter punches. By that time, he thought to himself, these Christians aren't even serious about God. If I knew God existed, I would give it my all. That night he claims that he had a supernatural experience, the presence of God. That jump-started his life-long quest.

Years later he would be an extremely prolific author. His study of the Book of Acts, 3 million words, has been called 'magisterial,' 'epic,' 'the very best study of Acts....' He also wrote a 600,000 page study of miracles. Many of the cases have full medical documentation. He features over 300 cases of blindness alone.
One of the most famous cases involved a teenage girl with a most severe case of multiple sclerosis. Over the years until she was a young adult, her physically condition deteriorated. At the Mayo Clinic, one physician said she was among the worse cases of MS he had ever seen (the names of the MDs and other witnesses are included). When she was given six months to live (she was sent home to her family) her body was twisted, her feet pointed downwards, similarly with her hands. Her intestines were shutting down, she lost all control of her basic bodily functions. She was nearly blind. Yet through all this she was a Christian.

At this point she had lost all hope, that God didn't hear her prayers. Her story was featured in a radio program. Hundreds of listeners began praying for Barbara. Her cousin was reading some of the letters from these listeners. And then Barbara gestured to her cousin that she wanted to say something. She said that she knew God was going to heal her, and to call her parents. Her mother ran in to find Barbara had ripped out all the tubes and was standing on legs that had been atrophied. Her mom bent down and felt her legs, "You have muscles!"
Her dad began to waltz with her around the room. At a prayer service at her church that night, the minister asked if anyone had anything they would like to add. Barbara began walking down the center aisle, and you can imagine the shock and incredulity. Everyone began singing, 'Amazing Grace.' This, of course, is the famous hymn written by a life-long atheist, who in his own words was the most wretched of men, until he was saved by God.

Another scientific study (not as hard to read as 600,000 pages) is from Dr. Candy Brown. She and a medical team went to Mozambique, East Africa to test Heidi Baker, a missionary there for decades, and the site of many alleged miracles, including miracles of healing.
Over two dozen patients were brought and tested, either legally blind or deaf (because these cases can be pre-tested easily); and then Heidi Baker would pray and hold the patient for a few minutes. Immediately afterwards, the patient would be tested again. The majority of the patients experienced incredible healings. For example, 'Ruth' was an elderly woman with vision tested 300/20 and so deaf that a jet engine couldn't faze her -- plainly she couldn't hear a normal conversation. A few minutes later her vision was 80/20 and she could carry on a normal conversation. Dr. Brown explains the misconception that with so few test subjects the study wouldn't be an 'acid test.' However, with the fewer number, the results are actually more astounding. Her husband also has founded the Global Medical Group to scientifically test the effects of prayer on illness.

A study of over 1,000 American MDs shows that over 70% believed they had been involved in cases that could not be explained by naturalistic means, that they were open to the possibility these could be classified as miracles.

If one is of an intellectual frame of mine, I'd suggest Dr. Craig Evans' 'Fabricating Jesus - How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels.' Evans' 'How God Became Jesus' also is an excellent refutation of Dr. Bart Ehrman's 'How Jesus Became God.' Drs. Gary Habermas (resurrection expert), Edwin Yamauchi (a 'scholar's scholar'), Richard Bauckham (one of the tops in 'early high Christology club' an informal 'club' with a focus that Jesus was worshipped as God from very early after the resurrection) are one of several scholars I would recommend that use the strictest methodology. Dr. John A. Bloom, physicist, has written a fine study of Ezekiel's prophecy of Tyre, which skeptics claim is false, along with the rest of the Old Testament prophecies. Bloom also has written a top 80 page paper on the existence of God.

On a concluding note, the message of God as revealed in the Bible is of love. In 1 Corinthians 12 + the apostle Paul encourages believers to seek the highest Gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are supernatural gifts (sorry, Mr. Hume). While the list is varied, it may not be complete. For example, in times of trouble, sometimes a Christian being physically attacked has recounted the attacker being immobilized by an unseen force, such as the case of a Soviet-era Christian hunter who regularly beat up Christians. After experiencing these things, he became a Christian.

The highest Gift, though, is love. "Faith, Hope, Love ... the highest is Love." And from this we can understand how normal humans can be capable of incredible love. The 'fruits' of the spirit are developed by the normal walk through life of the Christian who learns about God, and tries to apply the lessons. But with the Gifts, God helps one supernaturally.

Paul also writes that 'God is love.' Despite all the skeptics, you can prove to yourself if this is true or not. And that is a brief answer on how an atheist can come to belief in God.

111-God-depends-on-nature.jpg
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Intellectually: David Hume is highly regarded by many atheists by declaring that anything beyond natural law is impossible. Or to put it another way, it seems Hume was saying that he knew the limits of all knowledge. Yet today even the most egotistical person will admit that 'we' (humans) don't know .000000000001% of the how, why, what, where, who, when of existence, to borrow from Kipling. Even in Hume's day critics charged that he was using circular reasoning; and that he didn't reply to his critics.

Intellectually and experientially: Dr. Craig Keener grew up an agnostic. One day during his teens he met some rather heavy-handed Christians: "You're going to Hell unless...." He dispatched them with hard counter punches. By that time, he thought to himself, these Christians aren't even serious about God. If I knew God existed, I would give it my all. That night he claims that he had a supernatural experience, the presence of God. That jump-started his life-long quest.

Years later he would be an extremely prolific author. His study of the Book of Acts, 3 million words, has been called 'magisterial,' 'epic,' 'the very best study of Acts....' He also wrote a 600,000 page study of miracles. Many of the cases have full medical documentation. He features over 300 cases of blindness alone.
One of the most famous cases involved a teenage girl with a most severe case of multiple sclerosis. Over the years until she was a young adult, her physically condition deteriorated. At the Mayo Clinic, one physician said she was among the worse cases of MS he had ever seen (the names of the MDs and other witnesses are included). When she was given six months to live (she was sent home to her family) her body was twisted, her feet pointed downwards, similarly with her hands. Her intestines were shutting down, she lost all control of her basic bodily functions. She was nearly blind. Yet through all this she was a Christian.

At this point she had lost all hope, that God didn't hear her prayers. Her story was featured in a radio program. Hundreds of listeners began praying for Barbara. Her cousin was reading some of the letters from these listeners. And then Barbara gestured to her cousin that she wanted to say something. She said that she knew God was going to heal her, and to call her parents. Her mother ran in to find Barbara had ripped out all the tubes and was standing on legs that had been atrophied. Her mom bent down and felt her legs, "You have muscles!"
Her dad began to waltz with her around the room. At a prayer service at her church that night, the minister asked if anyone had anything they would like to add. Barbara began walking down the center aisle, and you can imagine the shock and incredulity. Everyone began singing, 'Amazing Grace.' This, of course, is the famous hymn written by a life-long atheist, who in his own words was the most wretched of men, until he was saved by God.

Another scientific study (not as hard to read as 600,000 pages) is from Dr. Candy Brown. She and a medical team went to Mozambique, East Africa to test Heidi Baker, a missionary there for decades, and the site of many alleged miracles, including miracles of healing.
Over two dozen patients were brought and tested, either legally blind or deaf (because these cases can be pre-tested easily); and then Heidi Baker would pray and hold the patient for a few minutes. Immediately afterwards, the patient would be tested again. The majority of the patients experienced incredible healings. For example, 'Ruth' was an elderly woman with vision tested 300/20 and so deaf that a jet engine couldn't faze her -- plainly she couldn't hear a normal conversation. A few minutes later her vision was 80/20 and she could carry on a normal conversation. Dr. Brown explains the misconception that with so few test subjects the study wouldn't be an 'acid test.' However, with the fewer number, the results are actually more astounding. Her husband also has founded the Global Medical Group to scientifically test the effects of prayer on illness.

A study of over 1,000 American MDs shows that over 70% believed they had been involved in cases that could not be explained by naturalistic means, that they were open to the possibility these could be classified as miracles.

If one is of an intellectual frame of mine, I'd suggest Dr. Craig Evans' 'Fabricating Jesus - How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels.' Evans' 'How God Became Jesus' also is an excellent refutation of Dr. Bart Ehrman's 'How Jesus Became God.' Drs. Gary Habermas (resurrection expert), Edwin Yamauchi (a 'scholar's scholar'), Richard Bauckham (one of the tops in 'early high Christology club' an informal 'club' with a focus that Jesus was worshipped as God from very early after the resurrection) are one of several scholars I would recommend that use the strictest methodology. Dr. John A. Bloom, physicist, has written a fine study of Ezekiel's prophecy of Tyre, which skeptics claim is false, along with the rest of the Old Testament prophecies. Bloom also has written a top 80 page paper on the existence of God.

On a concluding note, the message of God as revealed in the Bible is of love. In 1 Corinthians 12 + the apostle Paul encourages believers to seek the highest Gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are supernatural gifts (sorry, Mr. Hume). While the list is varied, it may not be complete. For example, in times of trouble, sometimes a Christian being physically attacked has recounted the attacker being immobilized by an unseen force, such as the case of a Soviet-era Christian hunter who regularly beat up Christians. After experiencing these things, he became a Christian.

The highest Gift, though, is love. "Faith, Hope, Love ... the highest is Love." And from this we can understand how normal humans can be capable of incredible love. The 'fruits' of the spirit are developed by the normal walk through life of the Christian who learns about God, and tries to apply the lessons. But with the Gifts, God helps one supernaturally.

Paul also writes that 'God is love.' Despite all the skeptics, you can prove to yourself if this is true or not. And that is a brief answer on how an atheist can come to belief in God.


I assume you can provide sources for your figures.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
God does not hate amputees. God is Love. How do you know there are no amputees being healed anywhere in the world today? You don't. While Jesus walked on earth He and the apostles went around and healed the lame and those with leprosy who may have and often were missing limps or fingers or toes, making them whole again. The point of miracles, though, was foremost to point to who Jesus Christ was as God and Savior. Today the areas where the most physical healing takes place are in areas where the gospel is reaching those who have never heard the good news of Christ. They are signposts. Even so, those who are healed, still eventually die like everyone else. God's plan is about eternal life, not healing everyone on earth now. God uses people's lives in a variety of ways and in His wisdom He chooses when and how to heal or not. But all will have perfect health who receive eternal life, including amputees.


Why won't God heal amputees?

Why does god regrow a lizards tail but not a childs leg. Its almost as though god has a preference for lizards
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
In other words, 70% of modern doctors are morons who don't read/don't understand medical anthropology. They don't realize that when in the face of their awesome, intensive training, they're just being "superstitious" when they SEE and EXPERIENCE inexplicable healing.

Maybe the people didn't really heal, you know, like at a church service run by hucksters, using shills. The doctors are so stupid that when they see the statistically improbably remissions from disease and miracle healings from traumas, that they don't understand their patients didn't really heal at all, spontaneously, instantly, rather, their patients were released from the hospital, only to die soon after.

We should revoke 70% of medical licenses because doctors don't understand medical anthropology and are killing their patients when they say, "WOW, how did ALL of these healings occur?"
Oh good grief. Did you even read beyond the words medical anthropology? I'm not sure you did, because I pointed out a goal of medical anthropologists is to help bridge the gap between contemporary medicine and traditional rituals. And the point was also to show that people of any religion can make these claims of healing. But they aren't any better than placebo because prayer won't address bacteria, won't inoculate against viruses, won't remove tumors, and won't prevent a wound from becoming septic.
And what of all those Christians who have died, from easily treatable diseases, because prayer failed them?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Why does god regrow a lizards tail but not a childs leg. Its almost as though god has a preference for lizards
I guess that depends on your perspective or more importantly God's perspective and plan. If this life was all there is then you may have a point, but I think the scriptures reveal that God has a much greater, eternal plan and desire for each child than this short lifetime.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Intellectually: David Hume is highly regarded by many atheists by declaring that anything beyond natural law is impossible.
No he didn't. His views were essentially skeptical. If you disagree, please quote the part of his writings you rely on.
Or to put it another way, it seems Hume was saying that he knew the limits of all knowledge.
Again, no he didn't. Skepticism says the opposite. Again, feel free to quote him to show me I'm wrong.
Even in Hume's day critics charged that he was using circular reasoning; and that he didn't reply to his critics.
Really? What circular reasoning was alleged against him?
Dr. Craig Keener grew up an agnostic. [...] he thought to himself [...] If I knew God existed, I would give it my all. That night he claims that he had a supernatural experience, the presence of God. That jump-started his life-long quest.
That's rather sweet. What real thing did he intend to denote when he said "God" and what has a supernatural experience got to do with real things? Or didn't he know about such questions?
Years later he would be an extremely prolific author... His study of the Book of Acts, 3 million words [...] He also wrote a 600,000 page study of miracles.
That's OCD bigtime! You've read them?
Another scientific study [...] is from Dr. Candy Brown. She and a medical team went to Mozambique, East Africa to test Heidi Baker, a missionary there for decades, and the site of many alleged miracles, including miracles of healing. Over two dozen patients were brought and tested, either legally blind or deaf (because these cases can be pre-tested easily); and then Heidi Baker would pray and hold the patient for a few minutes. Immediately afterwards, the patient would be tested again. The majority of the patients experienced incredible healings.
You say this was a scientific study, so I assume we have a documented description of the condition of the eye before and after, and a specific description of the physical change that had occurred?

Or is it all just group psychology?

And do we have reports on the state of these blind people one, two, three months, one, two, three years later?

If not, then if the stories are evidence of anything, it might be in the realm of psychology or even placebo studies, but nothing scientific has been shown at all.
A study of over 1,000 American MDs shows that over 70% believed they had been involved in cases that could not be explained by naturalistic means, that they were open to the possibility these could be classified as miracles.
You mean that amputees grew new limbs, I take it? I'd like to see those reports and the before and after photos. But even then I'd point out that the fact we lack a good explanation of phenomenon X never implies a supernatural cause of phenomenon X ─ if for no other reason than that the concept of the supernatural is incoherent.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
And do we have reports on the state of these blind people one, two, three months, one, two, three years later?

If not, then if the stories are evidence of anything, it might be in the realm of psychology or even placebo studies, but nothing scientific has been shown at all.
Reminds me of Darren Brown's show Miracle, where he put on a Protestant-like show to heal people, and for then at least the things he did work.
But he quickly told people not to throw away their glasses or canes because they'll need them soon, and that the visual effects that left one audience member "blind" would soon pass.
 

Craig Sedok

Member
Intellectually: David Hume is highly regarded by many atheists by declaring that anything beyond natural law is impossible. Or to put it another way, it seems Hume was saying that he knew the limits of all knowledge. Yet today even the most egotistical person will admit that 'we' (humans) don't know .000000000001% of the how, why, what, where, who, when of existence, to borrow from Kipling. Even in Hume's day critics charged that he was using circular reasoning; and that he didn't reply to his critics.

Intellectually and experientially: Dr. Craig Keener grew up an agnostic. One day during his teens he met some rather heavy-handed Christians: "You're going to Hell unless...." He dispatched them with hard counter punches. By that time, he thought to himself, these Christians aren't even serious about God. If I knew God existed, I would give it my all. That night he claims that he had a supernatural experience, the presence of God. That jump-started his life-long quest.

Years later he would be an extremely prolific author. His study of the Book of Acts, 3 million words, has been called 'magisterial,' 'epic,' 'the very best study of Acts....' He also wrote a 600,000 page study of miracles. Many of the cases have full medical documentation. He features over 300 cases of blindness alone.
One of the most famous cases involved a teenage girl with a most severe case of multiple sclerosis. Over the years until she was a young adult, her physically condition deteriorated. At the Mayo Clinic, one physician said she was among the worse cases of MS he had ever seen (the names of the MDs and other witnesses are included). When she was given six months to live (she was sent home to her family) her body was twisted, her feet pointed downwards, similarly with her hands. Her intestines were shutting down, she lost all control of her basic bodily functions. She was nearly blind. Yet through all this she was a Christian.

At this point she had lost all hope, that God didn't hear her prayers. Her story was featured in a radio program. Hundreds of listeners began praying for Barbara. Her cousin was reading some of the letters from these listeners. And then Barbara gestured to her cousin that she wanted to say something. She said that she knew God was going to heal her, and to call her parents. Her mother ran in to find Barbara had ripped out all the tubes and was standing on legs that had been atrophied. Her mom bent down and felt her legs, "You have muscles!"
Her dad began to waltz with her around the room. At a prayer service at her church that night, the minister asked if anyone had anything they would like to add. Barbara began walking down the center aisle, and you can imagine the shock and incredulity. Everyone began singing, 'Amazing Grace.' This, of course, is the famous hymn written by a life-long atheist, who in his own words was the most wretched of men, until he was saved by God.

Another scientific study (not as hard to read as 600,000 pages) is from Dr. Candy Brown. She and a medical team went to Mozambique, East Africa to test Heidi Baker, a missionary there for decades, and the site of many alleged miracles, including miracles of healing.
Over two dozen patients were brought and tested, either legally blind or deaf (because these cases can be pre-tested easily); and then Heidi Baker would pray and hold the patient for a few minutes. Immediately afterwards, the patient would be tested again. The majority of the patients experienced incredible healings. For example, 'Ruth' was an elderly woman with vision tested 300/20 and so deaf that a jet engine couldn't faze her -- plainly she couldn't hear a normal conversation. A few minutes later her vision was 80/20 and she could carry on a normal conversation. Dr. Brown explains the misconception that with so few test subjects the study wouldn't be an 'acid test.' However, with the fewer number, the results are actually more astounding. Her husband also has founded the Global Medical Group to scientifically test the effects of prayer on illness.

A study of over 1,000 American MDs shows that over 70% believed they had been involved in cases that could not be explained by naturalistic means, that they were open to the possibility these could be classified as miracles.

If one is of an intellectual frame of mine, I'd suggest Dr. Craig Evans' 'Fabricating Jesus - How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels.' Evans' 'How God Became Jesus' also is an excellent refutation of Dr. Bart Ehrman's 'How Jesus Became God.' Drs. Gary Habermas (resurrection expert), Edwin Yamauchi (a 'scholar's scholar'), Richard Bauckham (one of the tops in 'early high Christology club' an informal 'club' with a focus that Jesus was worshipped as God from very early after the resurrection) are one of several scholars I would recommend that use the strictest methodology. Dr. John A. Bloom, physicist, has written a fine study of Ezekiel's prophecy of Tyre, which skeptics claim is false, along with the rest of the Old Testament prophecies. Bloom also has written a top 80 page paper on the existence of God.

On a concluding note, the message of God as revealed in the Bible is of love. In 1 Corinthians 12 + the apostle Paul encourages believers to seek the highest Gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are supernatural gifts (sorry, Mr. Hume). While the list is varied, it may not be complete. For example, in times of trouble, sometimes a Christian being physically attacked has recounted the attacker being immobilized by an unseen force, such as the case of a Soviet-era Christian hunter who regularly beat up Christians. After experiencing these things, he became a Christian.

The highest Gift, though, is love. "Faith, Hope, Love ... the highest is Love." And from this we can understand how normal humans can be capable of incredible love. The 'fruits' of the spirit are developed by the normal walk through life of the Christian who learns about God, and tries to apply the lessons. But with the Gifts, God helps one supernaturally.

Paul also writes that 'God is love.' Despite all the skeptics, you can prove to yourself if this is true or not. And that is a brief answer on how an atheist can come to belief in God.

Love is the encompassing bubble of existing just forward in our time of reach.. The wind keep blowing and we all keep reaching for it. Some day we get it. Even an atheist will end up with hands full of what the world can offer IF effort is given towards that.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I guess that depends on your perspective or more importantly God's perspective and plan. If this life was all there is then you may have a point, but I think the scriptures reveal that God has a much greater, eternal plan and desire for each child than this short lifetime.

If that makes you feel better about the horrors of life then that is cool.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Intellectually: David Hume is highly regarded by many atheists by declaring that anything beyond natural law is impossible. Or to put it another way, it seems Hume was saying that he knew the limits of all knowledge. Yet today even the most egotistical person will admit that 'we' (humans) don't know .000000000001% of the how, why, what, where, who, when of existence, to borrow from Kipling. Even in Hume's day critics charged that he was using circular reasoning; and that he didn't reply to his critics.

Intellectually and experientially: Dr. Craig Keener grew up an agnostic. One day during his teens he met some rather heavy-handed Christians: "You're going to Hell unless...." He dispatched them with hard counter punches. By that time, he thought to himself, these Christians aren't even serious about God. If I knew God existed, I would give it my all. That night he claims that he had a supernatural experience, the presence of God. That jump-started his life-long quest.

Years later he would be an extremely prolific author. His study of the Book of Acts, 3 million words, has been called 'magisterial,' 'epic,' 'the very best study of Acts....' He also wrote a 600,000 page study of miracles. Many of the cases have full medical documentation. He features over 300 cases of blindness alone.
One of the most famous cases involved a teenage girl with a most severe case of multiple sclerosis. Over the years until she was a young adult, her physically condition deteriorated. At the Mayo Clinic, one physician said she was among the worse cases of MS he had ever seen (the names of the MDs and other witnesses are included). When she was given six months to live (she was sent home to her family) her body was twisted, her feet pointed downwards, similarly with her hands. Her intestines were shutting down, she lost all control of her basic bodily functions. She was nearly blind. Yet through all this she was a Christian.

At this point she had lost all hope, that God didn't hear her prayers. Her story was featured in a radio program. Hundreds of listeners began praying for Barbara. Her cousin was reading some of the letters from these listeners. And then Barbara gestured to her cousin that she wanted to say something. She said that she knew God was going to heal her, and to call her parents. Her mother ran in to find Barbara had ripped out all the tubes and was standing on legs that had been atrophied. Her mom bent down and felt her legs, "You have muscles!"
Her dad began to waltz with her around the room. At a prayer service at her church that night, the minister asked if anyone had anything they would like to add. Barbara began walking down the center aisle, and you can imagine the shock and incredulity. Everyone began singing, 'Amazing Grace.' This, of course, is the famous hymn written by a life-long atheist, who in his own words was the most wretched of men, until he was saved by God.

Another scientific study (not as hard to read as 600,000 pages) is from Dr. Candy Brown. She and a medical team went to Mozambique, East Africa to test Heidi Baker, a missionary there for decades, and the site of many alleged miracles, including miracles of healing.
Over two dozen patients were brought and tested, either legally blind or deaf (because these cases can be pre-tested easily); and then Heidi Baker would pray and hold the patient for a few minutes. Immediately afterwards, the patient would be tested again. The majority of the patients experienced incredible healings. For example, 'Ruth' was an elderly woman with vision tested 300/20 and so deaf that a jet engine couldn't faze her -- plainly she couldn't hear a normal conversation. A few minutes later her vision was 80/20 and she could carry on a normal conversation. Dr. Brown explains the misconception that with so few test subjects the study wouldn't be an 'acid test.' However, with the fewer number, the results are actually more astounding. Her husband also has founded the Global Medical Group to scientifically test the effects of prayer on illness.

A study of over 1,000 American MDs shows that over 70% believed they had been involved in cases that could not be explained by naturalistic means, that they were open to the possibility these could be classified as miracles.

If one is of an intellectual frame of mine, I'd suggest Dr. Craig Evans' 'Fabricating Jesus - How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels.' Evans' 'How God Became Jesus' also is an excellent refutation of Dr. Bart Ehrman's 'How Jesus Became God.' Drs. Gary Habermas (resurrection expert), Edwin Yamauchi (a 'scholar's scholar'), Richard Bauckham (one of the tops in 'early high Christology club' an informal 'club' with a focus that Jesus was worshipped as God from very early after the resurrection) are one of several scholars I would recommend that use the strictest methodology. Dr. John A. Bloom, physicist, has written a fine study of Ezekiel's prophecy of Tyre, which skeptics claim is false, along with the rest of the Old Testament prophecies. Bloom also has written a top 80 page paper on the existence of God.

On a concluding note, the message of God as revealed in the Bible is of love. In 1 Corinthians 12 + the apostle Paul encourages believers to seek the highest Gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are supernatural gifts (sorry, Mr. Hume). While the list is varied, it may not be complete. For example, in times of trouble, sometimes a Christian being physically attacked has recounted the attacker being immobilized by an unseen force, such as the case of a Soviet-era Christian hunter who regularly beat up Christians. After experiencing these things, he became a Christian.

The highest Gift, though, is love. "Faith, Hope, Love ... the highest is Love." And from this we can understand how normal humans can be capable of incredible love. The 'fruits' of the spirit are developed by the normal walk through life of the Christian who learns about God, and tries to apply the lessons. But with the Gifts, God helps one supernaturally.

Paul also writes that 'God is love.' Despite all the skeptics, you can prove to yourself if this is true or not. And that is a brief answer on how an atheist can come to belief in God.
Sounds like the Benny Hinn Playbook.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
How do you know there are no amputees being healed anywhere in the world today? You don't. .
This is like saying, "How do you know there are no unicorns anywhere in the world today? You don't."

But because we have never seen a unicorn and we have record going back a good while it is reasonable to assume that there a no unicorns.
Similarly, no one has ever seen an amputee have a finger, arm, leg grow back and again the records go back. So once again, if you are an amputee it is reasonable to assume that god (or medicine) cannot cure you.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Assumption 1: God has never healed an amputee. Who is to say that in the history of the world, God has never caused a limb to regenerate? To say, "I have no empirical evidence that limbs can regenerate; therefore, no amputee has ever been healed in the history of the world" is akin to saying "I have no empirical evidence that rabbits live in my yard; therefore, no rabbit has ever lived on this ground in the history of the world." It’s a conclusion that simply cannot be drawn. Besides, we have the historical record of Jesus healing lepers, some of whom we may assume had lost digits or facial features. In each case, the lepers were restored whole (Mark 1:40-42; Luke 17:12-14). Also, there is the case of the man with the shriveled hand (Matthew 12:9-13), and the restoration of Malchus's severed ear (Luke 22:50-51), not to mention the fact that Jesus raised the dead (Matthew 11:5; John 11), which would undeniably be even more difficult than healing an amputee.

Assumption 2: God’s goodness and love require Him to heal everyone. Illness, suffering, and pain are the result of our living in a cursed world—cursed because of our sin (Genesis 3:16-19; Romans 8:20-22). God’s goodness and love moved Him to provide a Savior to redeem us from the curse (1 John 4:9-10), but our ultimate redemption will not be realized until God has made a final end of sin in the world. Until that time, we are still subject to physical death.
You forgot to mention all this has come from what you have simply read from an old book.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
You forgot to mention all this has come from what you have simply read from an old book.

The book may be this, and it may be that, but it is
not "history". It takes more than the occasional fact
mixed in with all the fairy tales to make credible
history.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Intellectually: David Hume is highly regarded by many atheists by declaring that anything beyond natural law is impossible. Or to put it another way, it seems Hume was saying that he knew the limits of all knowledge. Yet today even the most egotistical person will admit that 'we' (humans) don't know .000000000001% of the how, why, what, where, who, when of existence, to borrow from Kipling. Even in Hume's day critics charged that he was using circular reasoning; and that he didn't reply to his critics.

Intellectually and experientially: Dr. Craig Keener grew up an agnostic. One day during his teens he met some rather heavy-handed Christians: "You're going to Hell unless...." He dispatched them with hard counter punches. By that time, he thought to himself, these Christians aren't even serious about God. If I knew God existed, I would give it my all. That night he claims that he had a supernatural experience, the presence of God. That jump-started his life-long quest.

Years later he would be an extremely prolific author. His study of the Book of Acts, 3 million words, has been called 'magisterial,' 'epic,' 'the very best study of Acts....' He also wrote a 600,000 page study of miracles. Many of the cases have full medical documentation. He features over 300 cases of blindness alone.
One of the most famous cases involved a teenage girl with a most severe case of multiple sclerosis. Over the years until she was a young adult, her physically condition deteriorated. At the Mayo Clinic, one physician said she was among the worse cases of MS he had ever seen (the names of the MDs and other witnesses are included). When she was given six months to live (she was sent home to her family) her body was twisted, her feet pointed downwards, similarly with her hands. Her intestines were shutting down, she lost all control of her basic bodily functions. She was nearly blind. Yet through all this she was a Christian.

At this point she had lost all hope, that God didn't hear her prayers. Her story was featured in a radio program. Hundreds of listeners began praying for Barbara. Her cousin was reading some of the letters from these listeners. And then Barbara gestured to her cousin that she wanted to say something. She said that she knew God was going to heal her, and to call her parents. Her mother ran in to find Barbara had ripped out all the tubes and was standing on legs that had been atrophied. Her mom bent down and felt her legs, "You have muscles!"
Her dad began to waltz with her around the room. At a prayer service at her church that night, the minister asked if anyone had anything they would like to add. Barbara began walking down the center aisle, and you can imagine the shock and incredulity. Everyone began singing, 'Amazing Grace.' This, of course, is the famous hymn written by a life-long atheist, who in his own words was the most wretched of men, until he was saved by God.

Another scientific study (not as hard to read as 600,000 pages) is from Dr. Candy Brown. She and a medical team went to Mozambique, East Africa to test Heidi Baker, a missionary there for decades, and the site of many alleged miracles, including miracles of healing.
Over two dozen patients were brought and tested, either legally blind or deaf (because these cases can be pre-tested easily); and then Heidi Baker would pray and hold the patient for a few minutes. Immediately afterwards, the patient would be tested again. The majority of the patients experienced incredible healings. For example, 'Ruth' was an elderly woman with vision tested 300/20 and so deaf that a jet engine couldn't faze her -- plainly she couldn't hear a normal conversation. A few minutes later her vision was 80/20 and she could carry on a normal conversation. Dr. Brown explains the misconception that with so few test subjects the study wouldn't be an 'acid test.' However, with the fewer number, the results are actually more astounding. Her husband also has founded the Global Medical Group to scientifically test the effects of prayer on illness.

A study of over 1,000 American MDs shows that over 70% believed they had been involved in cases that could not be explained by naturalistic means, that they were open to the possibility these could be classified as miracles.

If one is of an intellectual frame of mine, I'd suggest Dr. Craig Evans' 'Fabricating Jesus - How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels.' Evans' 'How God Became Jesus' also is an excellent refutation of Dr. Bart Ehrman's 'How Jesus Became God.' Drs. Gary Habermas (resurrection expert), Edwin Yamauchi (a 'scholar's scholar'), Richard Bauckham (one of the tops in 'early high Christology club' an informal 'club' with a focus that Jesus was worshipped as God from very early after the resurrection) are one of several scholars I would recommend that use the strictest methodology. Dr. John A. Bloom, physicist, has written a fine study of Ezekiel's prophecy of Tyre, which skeptics claim is false, along with the rest of the Old Testament prophecies. Bloom also has written a top 80 page paper on the existence of God.

On a concluding note, the message of God as revealed in the Bible is of love. In 1 Corinthians 12 + the apostle Paul encourages believers to seek the highest Gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are supernatural gifts (sorry, Mr. Hume). While the list is varied, it may not be complete. For example, in times of trouble, sometimes a Christian being physically attacked has recounted the attacker being immobilized by an unseen force, such as the case of a Soviet-era Christian hunter who regularly beat up Christians. After experiencing these things, he became a Christian.

The highest Gift, though, is love. "Faith, Hope, Love ... the highest is Love." And from this we can understand how normal humans can be capable of incredible love. The 'fruits' of the spirit are developed by the normal walk through life of the Christian who learns about God, and tries to apply the lessons. But with the Gifts, God helps one supernaturally.

Paul also writes that 'God is love.' Despite all the skeptics, you can prove to yourself if this is true or not. And that is a brief answer on how an atheist can come to belief in God.
What's your point?
 
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