I am not sure of what is your objection. I gave chapter and verse. If it is about the Easter vestal letter of Athanasius in 367 AD, setting the present NT canon, see the attached link: Easter letter - Wikipedia The setting of Easter in place of Passover, is another "Abomination" in itself (Revelation 17:5).
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Works vs Doctrine
- Thread starter iam1me
- Start date
I am not sure of what is your objection. I gave chapter and verse. If it is about the Easter vestal letter of Athanasius in 367 AD, setting the present NT canon, see the attached link: Easter letter - Wikipedia The setting of Easter in place of Passover, is another "Abomination" in itself (Revelation 17:5).
Please notice that the "goats", which parallels the "tares" of Matthew 13:30, are to be the "first" to be "gathered", as paralleled in Matthew 24:40. The bad guys, the "lawless" (Matthew 7:23) & (Matthew 13:49-50), will be gathered "first" and cast into the "furnace of fire", and then the wheat will be gathered into the "barn" (Matthew 13:30), the "land that I gave to Jacob" (Ezekiel 37:24-25).
Yes, the figurative goats and weed/tares are going to be destroyed. The wicked destroyed forever - Psalms92:7.
They will be destroyed by the executional words from Jesus mouth as per Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.
I find this will take place before the start of Jesus millennial reign over Earth begins.
Those people who are to be part of the humble meek to inherit the Earth will come through the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
So the ‘first heaven’ was wiped out during Noah’s flood and now they’re on their second? Wouldn’t that mean the angels actually lived in the canopy or clouds during Noah’s day?
We don't know this for fact because scripture doesn't tell us conclusively. John 20:17 states Christ had not yet ascended to the Father, but it doesn't state he didn't go to heaven.
Secondly their are verses like 1 Peter 3:18-20 which states he made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits, thus suggesting he descended into hell.
Third, Abrahams's bosom, or side, is where the spirits of the dead were said to be kept. It is the "paradise" side of Sheol.
Lastly it doesn't state Jesus was relegated to doing only one thing per day.
In any event, I think it more likely that Jesus descended into Sheol (paradise) where the thief now was. When he ascended to heaven he brought the captives in paradise with him. In other words he took "captivity captive" (Ephesians 4:8-10)
Thank you URAVIP2ME! Someone has finally attempted to actuallyEXPLAIN the thief from a works based perspective, at least beyond the "special dispensation" or "waiver" as suggested by @iam1me.
However this illustrates the problem inherent in works-based salvation. Here we see potential Christians have one of two choices to make when responding to the gospel message:
1. Get baptized and hope you’ve done enough “good works” to avoid getting killed by God or
2. Don’t get baptized, live the life of a thief and be assured of a happy-and-healthy resurrection!
2. Don’t get baptized, live the life of a thief and be assured of a happy-and-healthy resurrection!
Should we be surprised when folks avoid JW’s every Saturday morning? Not at all!
If they listen and adopt your message they’ll find themselves in the same precarious position all baptized JW’s are in now… forced to perform work after work after more work without assurance they’ve actually done enough “good work” to save themselves… whereas the rest of humanity need only live the life of an immoral thief to get resurrected! The whole idea doesn't make any sense.
Faith + Works may equal Reward, but Faith + Works never equals Salvation (by “Works” I mean our own). This is why Christ had to come. It is his blood, his work (not our own) that justifies the believer before God. ( Romans 5:9, Romans 3:24 ). Salvation is the work of Christ, and not a work of self. If we could have actually saved ourselves by our works, Jesus need not have come because we had the Law, and to have life, you simply need not break one iota of it.
If we are left to save ourselves then Christ is not our Savior…we are! The whole idea of saving ourselves through our own “works” does nothing but turn the entirety of the gospel message on its head.
The difference between a tare and wheat plant, is that tares are weeds which look exactly like wheat, except, they do not produce any good fruit. The "wicked", such as those who commit lawlessness, yet call on the Lord (Matthew 7:22-23) will have the day of the "son of man" come upon them unexpectantly (Matthew 24:43-44).
As for your "humble", the humble do not claim meekness nor humility. As for coming through the "great tribulation", the "elect" would not have made it through unless it was cut short. (Matthew 24:22). As for your Revelation 7:14-16, those who had clean robes. How does one get clean robes? (Revelation 19:8) Of the brides invited to the marriage, those without oil in their lamps were shut out.
OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
works = doctrine
Study the churches of Revelation: learn what Jesus always means.
Half of the time, Jesus is teaching doctrine... which consists of how we treat others and what we owe our Heavenly Father.
The other half of the time, Jesus spends condemning the Talmudists... aka, the Pharisees.
Study the churches of Revelation: learn what Jesus always means.
Half of the time, Jesus is teaching doctrine... which consists of how we treat others and what we owe our Heavenly Father.
The other half of the time, Jesus spends condemning the Talmudists... aka, the Pharisees.
First of all I find, ' heavens ' and even ' mountains ' in Scripture can stand for governmental rule.
So, the 'governing heavens' was wiped away in Noah's day as was that corrupted earth or people of earth.
So, then No angels lived in the clouds.
Jesus did Not ascend to heaven the day he was resurrected. It was about 40 days later.
1 Peter 3:18-20 is in connection to 2 Peter 2:4-5.
KJV translated the word tartarus into English as hell.
Tartarus is No place for humans but those fallen angels. See Jude 6.
Those fallen angels (Not people) are the spirits imprisoned in tartarus.
By Jesus appearing to those fallen angels of Noah's day showed them Jesus was successful in faithfulness.
Biblical hell is just the temporary grave for the 'sleeping dead' until resurrection day (Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth) Then, emptied out hell ends us cast into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell.
If the Bible's hell was a permanent place Jesus would still be in hell - Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
Those in Sheol (grave) know nothing - Ecclesiastes 9:5. Nothing but sleep - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; 146:4.
That thief, like the rest of John 3:13, paid the price for their sins as per Romans 6:7,23.
The thief put faith in Jesus' promise of being resurrected in a beautiful paradisical Earth.
'Death' stamps the price tag of sin as Paid In Full. It's Not death plus post-mortem penalty.
In other words, unless committing the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32 a resurrection is possible.
Faith without works (Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8) is a dead faith as per James 2:26. Not a works-based salvation.
Jesus can read hearts, so Jesus is judge of a person's faithfulness, or not.
Jesus instructed his followers to do the same 'spiritual work' he did at Luke 4:43.
Please notice at the soon coming 'time of separation' as per Matthew 25:31-33,37,40 it is Not talking about the dead but the living. The humble 'sheep'-like ones can remain alive on Earth. The haughty 'goat'-like ones are classed with those of Psalms 92:7. That is for Jesus to decide. Everything is voluntary.
Jesus set No amount of works, but Jesus did stress at Matthew 24:13 the one who endures to the end is saved.
Satan challenges all of us at Job 2:4-5 ' touch our flesh.... ' (loose physical health) and we would Not serve God.
Both Job and Jesus proved Satan a liar by being faithful under very adverse conditions. So can we.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
Wait a minute…
So God destroyed the heavens and the earth during Noah’s flood? And the reason he destroyed the "governing heavens" was based on things that occurred on earth???
How can you state “No angels lived in the clouds” when you just told us they did?
You stated the “first” heaven was the canopy above the earth during Noah’s day, the “second” heaven is the one we have now...since Noah...and the “third” heaven is paradise in the future! So where were the angels of heaven during Noah’s time?? Are they in the same "heaven" you equated with the canopy, or not? Or are they living in a “fourth” heaven?
Yes this verse tells us Jesus descended to Sheol. What it doesn’t tell us is whether he ascended prior to that. We have verses that tell us he had "not yet ascended to the Father", but nothing that stated he had not previously ascended to heaven. I believe, like you do, that Jesus went into Sheol, but I don’t see how you can state definitely he had not ascended to heaven previously.
Look at Luke 23:46: “Father into your hands I commit my spirit”. Are you definitively stating Jehovah’s hands were in hell at the time?
Then they also have no reward, including paradise Ecclesiates 9:5
So I can sin all I want, and get a great happy and healthy physical resurrection after I die, but if I listen to your message and don’t do good works, I might be killed…destroyed forever by God?
This is your gospel message??? Why should anyone listen to it and risk the chance getting killed?
I agree with you that the thief put faith in Jesus.
I have the same question as before, which has not been answered.
This is the flaw in works based soteriology. The idea we can sin all we want then get raised to paradise, but if we accept God early and then do something bad Jesus will kill you and you get no resurrection at all.
That is the formula for Faith + Works = Salvation, but certainly not Faith +Works = Reward. Besides, Faith + Works= Salvation makes no sense since the thief had no good works... unless you make the argument the thief was "wrongly accused" or that thievery is a “good work”.
So if it’s not a works based salvation, why work? Could it be for reward rather than salvation?
Agreed…I’m just trying to find out what “works” the thief did to save himself from our works-based friends. At the current time it looks like thievery.
Remember the context URAVIP2ME. Matthew 24:13 refers to those enduring through the tribulation period. We are not currently in the tribulation period.
I find Matthew 24:13 can also be in connection to the end of one's life.
Those committing the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32 can happen any time before Armageddon.
I know we are Not in the tribulation period because we have Not as of yet reached the ' final signal ' of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when the powers that be will be saying, "Peace and Security.." as the precursor of the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14.
Yes, what was occurring on Earth ( Genesis 6:11 violence ) was based on the violence governing over Earth at that time frame. So, the governmental heavens and earth (earthly society) of that time came to an end.
Wicked angels materialized fleshly bodies to have sexual relations with earth's women.
Since the Flood they can Not materialize but are considered as being in tartarus - Jude 6 - awaiting destruction.
Just as wicked Satan will be destroyed by Jesus as per Hebrews 2:14 B.
Now, they are Not in any fourth heaven, but 'woe' in the vicinity of earth as per Revelation 12:12
No willful sinner, heavenly or earthly, can gain everlasting life anywhere in heaven or on earth.
I never said angels lived in the clouds. In Noah's day there was a 'water' canopy surrounding earth, Not angels.
Since the dead Jesus did Not resurrect himself, then Jesus was on earth until his God resurrected him.
Remember: flesh and blood (physical) can Not inherit the kingdom of heaven - 1 Corinthians 15:50.
Jesus was in a physical fleshly body until his God resurrected Jesus out of biblical hell/sheol/ grave.
Even the Son of man (Jesus) did Not ascend to heaven as per John 3:13 & Acts of the Apostles 2:34 (David).
Jesus and the thief hung together for hours. That would have given Jesus plenty of time to talk to the thief, teach the thief, about what he will do in the future (1,000 year reign) for him if that thief put faith/belief/trust in him.
I find Jesus was still alive talking at Luke 23:46. After death Jesus went to biblical hell (grave).
At death Jesus' life's spirit returned to his God meaning all future life prospect depended on his God resurrecting him. Resurrecting Jesus from death's deep sleep - John 11:11-14; Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4 besides Ecclesiastes 9:5 stating that the dead know nothing. Nothing but deep sleep.
No, you can Not deliberately wilfully sin. Please notice Hebrews 10:26.
Also, please notice 2 Peter 3:9 because if Not repenting (stop the practice of sin) one will 'perish' (be destroyed).
ALL who died before Jesus died (John 3:13) can have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection.
Remember that ' death ' (Not death plus anything ) is the price tag that sin pays as per Romans 6:23,7.
Just as there was No post-mortem death penalty for Adam, there is Not post-mortem penalty for anyone else.
Except for committing the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32 is the sin that will never be forgiven.
So, the majority of mankind can have a healthy physical resurrection to live and gain everlasting life on earth.
That is why Revelation 22:2 says there will be ' healing ' for earth's nations.
Remember the majority of people have lived and died without ever hearing about Jesus.
Jesus' ransom of Matthew 20:28 covers such people.
Because Not all will Not end up accepting Jesus is why verse 28 says Jesus' ransom covers MANY and does Not say everyone.
Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 informs us God is now declaring to all who hear that to repent.
Jesus said to disown self, so in doing that then one would tell others about the good news of Daniel 2:44.
That is the kingdom government that we are all instructed to pray for to come ( thy kingdom come ).
That is Not praying to be killed but to live. Even live forever on a beautiful coming paradisical earth as Eden was a sample to follow.
So, yes, there will always be works. Works besides Matthew 24:14; 28:18-20, but such works as described at Isaiah 65:21-23. See also Isaiah 35th chapter. All works covered as James 2:26 says.
True, I find at Matthew chapter 23 Jesus pronounces many 'woes' against those false religious teachers.
In the 1st three chapters of Revelation I see Jesus as an ' Active Leader ' for those 7 congregations.
To me, Matthew 28:18-20; 24:14 shows that Jesus is an 'Active Leader ' today (Not by chance, but by guidance).
Oeste
Well-Known Member
Only if we proof-text rather then read in context.
Matthew 24 is about the end time, specifically the tribulation period, not our personal end-of-life.
Of course…but then this has a different context.
Well that’s certainly not what I was told in the 60’s and 70’s. The “Peace” sign was big back then, and this verse was often cited as “proof” Armageddon was just around the corner.
Where do we find the scripture stating the “governmental heavens” came to an end? Also who was governing the “governing heavens” at the time?
This is getting confusing. You stated the “first” heaven was the canopy surrounding the earth during Noah’s time, the “second” heaven occurs after the biblical flood, and the “third” heaven is the paradise of the future, and there is no “fourth” heaven anywhere. And now the angels are not in heaven at all, but “the vicinity of the earth”. Where exactly is that? Between the heavens and earth? The atmosphere??
So the thief on the cross stole unwillingly?
.
So where did the angels live during Noah’s time? You stated “first” heaven was the water canopy, the second heaven doesn’t occur until post-flood, the third is not until the future, and there is no “fourth” heaven!
Which of these heavens has the angels, since there is no “fourth” heaven? It seems to me that if heaven is located in one of these 3 places then the angels should have been living in the clouds before the flood.
As I stated previously, you have no answer for the thief! Here you must go beyond what is written, something the bible expressly prohibits at 1 Corinthians 4:6!
Ecclesiastes 9:5 also says the dead have no reward. Do you believe the first half of Ecclesiastes 9:5 but not the second?
Didn’t you just violate 1 Corinthians 4:6 when you made up a fantastic story of Jesus’ “study time” with the thief? You went beyond what was written in scripture, didn’t you?
Was this story about Jesus’ study time with the thief a deliberate act or did you write it inadvertently?
And the people who came after cannot? Where do we find this?
I don't remember scripture stating this at all.
The NWT interprets Romans 6:23 as “the wages sin pays is death” rather than rendering it properly as “the wages of sin is death”. Your translation makes it appear as if all sins are paid off when we die. In other words, we can sin (rape, murder, adulterate, fornicate, lie, cheat, steal, etc) all we want and at death our sins are wiped clean and we’re ready for a happy-and-healthy resurrection. But the correct translation is “the wages of sin is death” which means we die because of our sin…quite a different meaning than that found in the NWT.
Just so there is no doubt I’ve attached the Watchtower’ Kingdom Greek Interlinear (KGI) and the NWT . The KGI was written to translate the Greek and does a good job of getting this particular verse right, whereas the NWT was written to closely monitor Watchtower doctrine and gets it wrong.
So once we’re resurrected, we can sin all we want all over again, without any worry about a “post-mortem death penalty”???
Are you SURE this is something the Watchtower teaches, or is this a “private interpretation”?
I’m not sure what you mean by this statement.
I’m more concerned about the “governmental heavens” you claim were destroyed during the flood. Where did the angels live during Noah’s time, why is God punishing them for things occurring on earth, and where is the scripture supporting your assertion?
This 'reads' more like a paragraph from KJW47 than you.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the only people in error are the ones who say there is not a trinity.
OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
If you notice what is being represented with Jesus, when He speaks to each of the Churches, you probably won't think that He is a leader of all 7. Nor is He, when He is standing outside the church, knocking to get in. If it were His own church, that would hardly have been necessary. In fact, because it is also Jesus telling His children to flee from Babylon, as He is saying that even in Sardis there are some who aren't soiled by the works of the Nicolatain Jezebel... He is saying be ye separated from them... even back in the day when there were already many antichrists in the church. Saying that Jesus had something like unto flesh is not the same thing as saying Jesus came in flesh just as we have and was able to sin. His lesson being that we don't have to sin, either. His prayers to His Father are our guide, just as Job was our guide in the Oldest Testament.
Examples: In the case of the dead church which only pretended to be alive under the authority of His name, but did not keep His commandments... perhaps contented with blowing their own horn re: good-deed-doing, or giving to some self-styled charity in the vain hopes that some few pennies might wing their way to the coffers of the poor... remember that Judas kept the purse, and be afraid of that sort of charity. And even where Satan had his throne would seem to mean that Satan sat within the church itself.
There are only two churches of the seven which received no reprimand... although the church of Smyrna was tested to see if she loved the Lord thy God will her whole heart. Since Paul of Tarsus says he made them blaspheme, some failed that test. Because certainly, Paul was one of those religious teachers against whom Jesus spoke... Paul fulfills the prophecy as though he were trying to. The Talmud is the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews but do lie, and by the Talmud, was Paul raised at the feet of his Pharisee father.
And since Judas was not forgiven, neither was Saul of Tarsus. Whatever Saul did unto Jesus' followers, Saul did unto Jesus. Judas was chosen as the one who would betray Jesus. Saul wasn't chosen at all. Saul was prophecied against. And if any one of the Pharisees escaped the blood-guilt, the prophecy of Matthew 23 would fail... which it cannot do.
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OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
No, he is not. And sad to say, some of us actually have learned what Paul taught. We are like the reformed smoker snatching fire from the mouth of the victims. Fire has a lot to do with what Paul taught, actually.
Jesus told His disciples to teach the nations what He had taught them. Paul didn't do that. Within the verse of which I'm speaking is the trinity verse... which the Paulinists attempted to remove to support Paul's eastern religion of feelings rather than the commandments of Jesus. The words of Jesus are the Kingdom Gospel... the only gospel... not that Talmudistic commentary on what the murder of Jesus means for the anomia.
The stumbling block is Jesus Himself: His doctrine. Your Paul tells you that Jesus crucified is the stumbling blook. But Jesus says that because the Pharisees (including Paul) murdered Jesus to steal His inheritance (as Paulianity is doing), the stumbling block (cut from the mountain, without hands) will crush the Pharisees (and all of their clay proselytes) to powder.
Beware the leaven of the Pharisees. Because the five loaves of the Kingdom Gospel (Matthew 5-7) have been replaced by a multitude of baskets fit only for the birds of heaven to devour.
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OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
Acts is hearsay. And those tongues of fire is a huge clue as to the nature of those Lucos (wolf) interviewed for his stated compilation.
40 days versus The Same Day
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to My Father: but go to My brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and [to] My God, and your God.... 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.
20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
3:12 Whose fan [is] in His hand, and He will throughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
John the Baptist is speaking of two completely different peoples in v.11... v.12 is those baptized with fire. Baptized with the Holy Ghost is John 20:22.
The winnowing fan is in Jesus' hand whenever He speaks of the Pharisees and their proselytes.
Jesus says He came to divide even families into believers versus unbelievers.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
Jesus didn't seem to know of one--John 20:17, Rev 3:12--and at John 17:1-6,26--While Jesus praying to his Father calls him--THE ONLY TRUE GOD---verse 6= YHVH(Jehovah) 26= YHVH(Jehovah)
When Jesus contradicts ones teachers the wise believe Jesus.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
Learning the things of God is never ending. Jesus appointed Paul.
Paul left the Israelite religion. As did all followers. He repented--That is acceptable to God.
"He repented" of what? And if you would read the Word of God, Zechariah 11:4-10, it was the "LORD my God" who "took" "two staffs" to "pasture the flock doomed to slaughter" (the Christian Church), and one of them being the "staff" called "Favor", that being Paul (Zechariah 11:10). Of course "I annihilated the three shepherds in one month"/generation, the third shepherd being Judas Iscariot (Zechariah 11:12-13). Being deceived by the beast with two horns like a lamb seems "never ending". One of "horns like a lamb" is the false prophet Paul, who comes in sheep's clothing (Matthew 7:15).
If one has ones he calls "teachers"/Rabbi, that person wasn't following Yeshua in the first place (Matthew 23:8).
OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
Deuteronomy 18:20 "But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die."
Daniel 11:37 "Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all."
Matthew 23:34 was fulfilled by Acts 26:9-11, & v.35 will also be entirely fulfilled.
Jesus' prophecies cannot fail.
________________________
Kinda odd too, since your JW-self is using the name of the God which Paul openly blasphemes. (sigh)
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