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70% of Doctors Are Wrong, Of Course!

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Intellectually: David Hume is highly regarded by many atheists by declaring that anything beyond natural law is impossible. Or to put it another way, it seems Hume was saying that he knew the limits of all knowledge. Yet today even the most egotistical person will admit that 'we' (humans) don't know .000000000001% of the how, why, what, where, who, when of existence, to borrow from Kipling. Even in Hume's day critics charged that he was using circular reasoning; and that he didn't reply to his critics.

Intellectually and experientially: Dr. Craig Keener grew up an agnostic. One day during his teens he met some rather heavy-handed Christians: "You're going to Hell unless...." He dispatched them with hard counter punches. By that time, he thought to himself, these Christians aren't even serious about God. If I knew God existed, I would give it my all. That night he claims that he had a supernatural experience, the presence of God. That jump-started his life-long quest.

Years later he would be an extremely prolific author. His study of the Book of Acts, 3 million words, has been called 'magisterial,' 'epic,' 'the very best study of Acts....' He also wrote a 600,000 page study of miracles. Many of the cases have full medical documentation. He features over 300 cases of blindness alone.
One of the most famous cases involved a teenage girl with a most severe case of multiple sclerosis. Over the years until she was a young adult, her physically condition deteriorated. At the Mayo Clinic, one physician said she was among the worse cases of MS he had ever seen (the names of the MDs and other witnesses are included). When she was given six months to live (she was sent home to her family) her body was twisted, her feet pointed downwards, similarly with her hands. Her intestines were shutting down, she lost all control of her basic bodily functions. She was nearly blind. Yet through all this she was a Christian.

At this point she had lost all hope, that God didn't hear her prayers. Her story was featured in a radio program. Hundreds of listeners began praying for Barbara. Her cousin was reading some of the letters from these listeners. And then Barbara gestured to her cousin that she wanted to say something. She said that she knew God was going to heal her, and to call her parents. Her mother ran in to find Barbara had ripped out all the tubes and was standing on legs that had been atrophied. Her mom bent down and felt her legs, "You have muscles!"
Her dad began to waltz with her around the room. At a prayer service at her church that night, the minister asked if anyone had anything they would like to add. Barbara began walking down the center aisle, and you can imagine the shock and incredulity. Everyone began singing, 'Amazing Grace.' This, of course, is the famous hymn written by a life-long atheist, who in his own words was the most wretched of men, until he was saved by God.

Another scientific study (not as hard to read as 600,000 pages) is from Dr. Candy Brown. She and a medical team went to Mozambique, East Africa to test Heidi Baker, a missionary there for decades, and the site of many alleged miracles, including miracles of healing.
Over two dozen patients were brought and tested, either legally blind or deaf (because these cases can be pre-tested easily); and then Heidi Baker would pray and hold the patient for a few minutes. Immediately afterwards, the patient would be tested again. The majority of the patients experienced incredible healings. For example, 'Ruth' was an elderly woman with vision tested 300/20 and so deaf that a jet engine couldn't faze her -- plainly she couldn't hear a normal conversation. A few minutes later her vision was 80/20 and she could carry on a normal conversation. Dr. Brown explains the misconception that with so few test subjects the study wouldn't be an 'acid test.' However, with the fewer number, the results are actually more astounding. Her husband also has founded the Global Medical Group to scientifically test the effects of prayer on illness.

A study of over 1,000 American MDs shows that over 70% believed they had been involved in cases that could not be explained by naturalistic means, that they were open to the possibility these could be classified as miracles.

If one is of an intellectual frame of mine, I'd suggest Dr. Craig Evans' 'Fabricating Jesus - How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels.' Evans' 'How God Became Jesus' also is an excellent refutation of Dr. Bart Ehrman's 'How Jesus Became God.' Drs. Gary Habermas (resurrection expert), Edwin Yamauchi (a 'scholar's scholar'), Richard Bauckham (one of the tops in 'early high Christology club' an informal 'club' with a focus that Jesus was worshipped as God from very early after the resurrection) are one of several scholars I would recommend that use the strictest methodology. Dr. John A. Bloom, physicist, has written a fine study of Ezekiel's prophecy of Tyre, which skeptics claim is false, along with the rest of the Old Testament prophecies. Bloom also has written a top 80 page paper on the existence of God.

On a concluding note, the message of God as revealed in the Bible is of love. In 1 Corinthians 12 + the apostle Paul encourages believers to seek the highest Gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are supernatural gifts (sorry, Mr. Hume). While the list is varied, it may not be complete. For example, in times of trouble, sometimes a Christian being physically attacked has recounted the attacker being immobilized by an unseen force, such as the case of a Soviet-era Christian hunter who regularly beat up Christians. After experiencing these things, he became a Christian.

The highest Gift, though, is love. "Faith, Hope, Love ... the highest is Love." And from this we can understand how normal humans can be capable of incredible love. The 'fruits' of the spirit are developed by the normal walk through life of the Christian who learns about God, and tries to apply the lessons. But with the Gifts, God helps one supernaturally.

Paul also writes that 'God is love.' Despite all the skeptics, you can prove to yourself if this is true or not. And that is a brief answer on how an atheist can come to belief in God.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Very interesting post. I have just one caveat, though. Some of those cures you described might be explained without crediting faith as the cause.

Where our health is concerned, we need to be very careful about we expect to happen to us. It's fine when we expect something good to happen (the placebo effect) but it can work against us as well (the nocebo effect).

Many years ago, I read of an experiment that would probably not be allowed for moral reasons today.

A Haitian man, a believer in Voodoo, was "cursed" by a Voodoo priestess. He was told that a growth would appear on his throat. I recall photos of the growth, as it got bigger, as big as a baseball.

Then some men wearing white lab coats convinced the man they were doctors with the power to cure his problem. They give him inert white pills, placebos, and the growth disappeared.

The Voodoo priestess had no power. The lab workers had no power. The only power involved was in the man's mind. His expectations were made to work against him (nocebo effect) and then for him (placebo).
 
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Woberts

The Perfumed Seneschal
*yawn*
If prayer is so effective, then why do so many people die each year from preventable illnesses due to faith healing? For example,
www.masskids.org/index.php/religious-medical-neglect/cases-of-child-deaths
And that's only in Massachusetts.
There's also this study, which is about children:
Asser and Swan. Child Fatalities From Religion-Motivated Medical Neglect.pdf
Which shows that of the 172 children in the study, 140 of them had a probability of being cured at 90% or above.
Those aren't great odds.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Most diseases have natural cure rates. That is a percentage, which varies by disease, of people with the disease who spontaneously heal -- that is, through the body's own systems.

Whenever someone spontaneously heals from a disease, there are always people willing to claim they healed through prayer.

A better test of prayer than curing diseases would be to see how many severed arms prayer can cause to grow back, because there is no natural bodily mechanism for growing back arms, as there is a natural bodily mechanism for curing diseases.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Intellectually: David Hume is highly regarded by many atheists by declaring that anything beyond natural law is impossible. Or to put it another way, it seems Hume was saying that he knew the limits of all knowledge. Yet today even the most egotistical person will admit that 'we' (humans) don't know .000000000001% of the how, why, what, where, who, when of existence, to borrow from Kipling. Even in Hume's day critics charged that he was using circular reasoning; and that he didn't reply to his critics.

Intellectually and experientially: Dr. Craig Keener grew up an agnostic. One day during his teens he met some rather heavy-handed Christians: "You're going to Hell unless...." He dispatched them with hard counter punches. By that time, he thought to himself, these Christians aren't even serious about God. If I knew God existed, I would give it my all. That night he claims that he had a supernatural experience, the presence of God. That jump-started his life-long quest.

Years later he would be an extremely prolific author. His study of the Book of Acts, 3 million words, has been called 'magisterial,' 'epic,' 'the very best study of Acts....' He also wrote a 600,000 page study of miracles. Many of the cases have full medical documentation. He features over 300 cases of blindness alone.
One of the most famous cases involved a teenage girl with a most severe case of multiple sclerosis. Over the years until she was a young adult, her physically condition deteriorated. At the Mayo Clinic, one physician said she was among the worse cases of MS he had ever seen (the names of the MDs and other witnesses are included). When she was given six months to live (she was sent home to her family) her body was twisted, her feet pointed downwards, similarly with her hands. Her intestines were shutting down, she lost all control of her basic bodily functions. She was nearly blind. Yet through all this she was a Christian.

At this point she had lost all hope, that God didn't hear her prayers. Her story was featured in a radio program. Hundreds of listeners began praying for Barbara. Her cousin was reading some of the letters from these listeners. And then Barbara gestured to her cousin that she wanted to say something. She said that she knew God was going to heal her, and to call her parents. Her mother ran in to find Barbara had ripped out all the tubes and was standing on legs that had been atrophied. Her mom bent down and felt her legs, "You have muscles!"
Her dad began to waltz with her around the room. At a prayer service at her church that night, the minister asked if anyone had anything they would like to add. Barbara began walking down the center aisle, and you can imagine the shock and incredulity. Everyone began singing, 'Amazing Grace.' This, of course, is the famous hymn written by a life-long atheist, who in his own words was the most wretched of men, until he was saved by God.

Another scientific study (not as hard to read as 600,000 pages) is from Dr. Candy Brown. She and a medical team went to Mozambique, East Africa to test Heidi Baker, a missionary there for decades, and the site of many alleged miracles, including miracles of healing.
Over two dozen patients were brought and tested, either legally blind or deaf (because these cases can be pre-tested easily); and then Heidi Baker would pray and hold the patient for a few minutes. Immediately afterwards, the patient would be tested again. The majority of the patients experienced incredible healings. For example, 'Ruth' was an elderly woman with vision tested 300/20 and so deaf that a jet engine couldn't faze her -- plainly she couldn't hear a normal conversation. A few minutes later her vision was 80/20 and she could carry on a normal conversation. Dr. Brown explains the misconception that with so few test subjects the study wouldn't be an 'acid test.' However, with the fewer number, the results are actually more astounding. Her husband also has founded the Global Medical Group to scientifically test the effects of prayer on illness.

A study of over 1,000 American MDs shows that over 70% believed they had been involved in cases that could not be explained by naturalistic means, that they were open to the possibility these could be classified as miracles.

If one is of an intellectual frame of mine, I'd suggest Dr. Craig Evans' 'Fabricating Jesus - How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels.' Evans' 'How God Became Jesus' also is an excellent refutation of Dr. Bart Ehrman's 'How Jesus Became God.' Drs. Gary Habermas (resurrection expert), Edwin Yamauchi (a 'scholar's scholar'), Richard Bauckham (one of the tops in 'early high Christology club' an informal 'club' with a focus that Jesus was worshipped as God from very early after the resurrection) are one of several scholars I would recommend that use the strictest methodology. Dr. John A. Bloom, physicist, has written a fine study of Ezekiel's prophecy of Tyre, which skeptics claim is false, along with the rest of the Old Testament prophecies. Bloom also has written a top 80 page paper on the existence of God.

On a concluding note, the message of God as revealed in the Bible is of love. In 1 Corinthians 12 + the apostle Paul encourages believers to seek the highest Gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are supernatural gifts (sorry, Mr. Hume). While the list is varied, it may not be complete. For example, in times of trouble, sometimes a Christian being physically attacked has recounted the attacker being immobilized by an unseen force, such as the case of a Soviet-era Christian hunter who regularly beat up Christians. After experiencing these things, he became a Christian.

The highest Gift, though, is love. "Faith, Hope, Love ... the highest is Love." And from this we can understand how normal humans can be capable of incredible love. The 'fruits' of the spirit are developed by the normal walk through life of the Christian who learns about God, and tries to apply the lessons. But with the Gifts, God helps one supernaturally.

Paul also writes that 'God is love.' Despite all the skeptics, you can prove to yourself if this is true or not. And that is a brief answer on how an atheist can come to belief in God.
.LAZY bigfoot science. Look i have evidence of bigfoot.

Why the topic god is always pressed as big foot by atheist believers and and atheist non believers i have no idea.
top-10-sightings-intro-324x205.jpg
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
.LAZY bigfoot science. Look i have evidence of bigfoot.

Why the topic god is always pressed as big foot by atheist believers and and atheist non believers i have no idea.View attachment 24661

The late, great comedian Mitch Hedberg speculated that the reason pictures of bigfoot are always out of focus is that bigfoot just IS blurry. :) His concern is that there is a large, out-of-focus monster running around in the woods.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Intellectually: David Hume is highly regarded by many atheists by declaring that anything beyond natural law is impossible. Or to put it another way, it seems Hume was saying that he knew the limits of all knowledge. Yet today even the most egotistical person will admit that 'we' (humans) don't know .000000000001% of the how, why, what, where, who, when of existence, to borrow from Kipling. Even in Hume's day critics charged that he was using circular reasoning; and that he didn't reply to his critics.

Intellectually and experientially: Dr. Craig Keener grew up an agnostic. One day during his teens he met some rather heavy-handed Christians: "You're going to Hell unless...." He dispatched them with hard counter punches. By that time, he thought to himself, these Christians aren't even serious about God. If I knew God existed, I would give it my all. That night he claims that he had a supernatural experience, the presence of God. That jump-started his life-long quest.

Years later he would be an extremely prolific author. His study of the Book of Acts, 3 million words, has been called 'magisterial,' 'epic,' 'the very best study of Acts....' He also wrote a 600,000 page study of miracles. Many of the cases have full medical documentation. He features over 300 cases of blindness alone.
One of the most famous cases involved a teenage girl with a most severe case of multiple sclerosis. Over the years until she was a young adult, her physically condition deteriorated. At the Mayo Clinic, one physician said she was among the worse cases of MS he had ever seen (the names of the MDs and other witnesses are included). When she was given six months to live (she was sent home to her family) her body was twisted, her feet pointed downwards, similarly with her hands. Her intestines were shutting down, she lost all control of her basic bodily functions. She was nearly blind. Yet through all this she was a Christian.

At this point she had lost all hope, that God didn't hear her prayers. Her story was featured in a radio program. Hundreds of listeners began praying for Barbara. Her cousin was reading some of the letters from these listeners. And then Barbara gestured to her cousin that she wanted to say something. She said that she knew God was going to heal her, and to call her parents. Her mother ran in to find Barbara had ripped out all the tubes and was standing on legs that had been atrophied. Her mom bent down and felt her legs, "You have muscles!"
Her dad began to waltz with her around the room. At a prayer service at her church that night, the minister asked if anyone had anything they would like to add. Barbara began walking down the center aisle, and you can imagine the shock and incredulity. Everyone began singing, 'Amazing Grace.' This, of course, is the famous hymn written by a life-long atheist, who in his own words was the most wretched of men, until he was saved by God.

Another scientific study (not as hard to read as 600,000 pages) is from Dr. Candy Brown. She and a medical team went to Mozambique, East Africa to test Heidi Baker, a missionary there for decades, and the site of many alleged miracles, including miracles of healing.
Over two dozen patients were brought and tested, either legally blind or deaf (because these cases can be pre-tested easily); and then Heidi Baker would pray and hold the patient for a few minutes. Immediately afterwards, the patient would be tested again. The majority of the patients experienced incredible healings. For example, 'Ruth' was an elderly woman with vision tested 300/20 and so deaf that a jet engine couldn't faze her -- plainly she couldn't hear a normal conversation. A few minutes later her vision was 80/20 and she could carry on a normal conversation. Dr. Brown explains the misconception that with so few test subjects the study wouldn't be an 'acid test.' However, with the fewer number, the results are actually more astounding. Her husband also has founded the Global Medical Group to scientifically test the effects of prayer on illness.

A study of over 1,000 American MDs shows that over 70% believed they had been involved in cases that could not be explained by naturalistic means, that they were open to the possibility these could be classified as miracles.

If one is of an intellectual frame of mine, I'd suggest Dr. Craig Evans' 'Fabricating Jesus - How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels.' Evans' 'How God Became Jesus' also is an excellent refutation of Dr. Bart Ehrman's 'How Jesus Became God.' Drs. Gary Habermas (resurrection expert), Edwin Yamauchi (a 'scholar's scholar'), Richard Bauckham (one of the tops in 'early high Christology club' an informal 'club' with a focus that Jesus was worshipped as God from very early after the resurrection) are one of several scholars I would recommend that use the strictest methodology. Dr. John A. Bloom, physicist, has written a fine study of Ezekiel's prophecy of Tyre, which skeptics claim is false, along with the rest of the Old Testament prophecies. Bloom also has written a top 80 page paper on the existence of God.

On a concluding note, the message of God as revealed in the Bible is of love. In 1 Corinthians 12 + the apostle Paul encourages believers to seek the highest Gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are supernatural gifts (sorry, Mr. Hume). While the list is varied, it may not be complete. For example, in times of trouble, sometimes a Christian being physically attacked has recounted the attacker being immobilized by an unseen force, such as the case of a Soviet-era Christian hunter who regularly beat up Christians. After experiencing these things, he became a Christian.

The highest Gift, though, is love. "Faith, Hope, Love ... the highest is Love." And from this we can understand how normal humans can be capable of incredible love. The 'fruits' of the spirit are developed by the normal walk through life of the Christian who learns about God, and tries to apply the lessons. But with the Gifts, God helps one supernaturally.

Paul also writes that 'God is love.' Despite all the skeptics, you can prove to yourself if this is true or not. And that is a brief answer on how an atheist can come to belief in God.


Why do you suppose god hates amputees?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Intellectually: David Hume is highly regarded by many atheists by declaring that anything beyond natural law is impossible. Or to put it another way, it seems Hume was saying that he knew the limits of all knowledge. Yet today even the most egotistical person will admit that 'we' (humans) don't know .000000000001% of the how, why, what, where, who, when of existence, to borrow from Kipling. Even in Hume's day critics charged that he was using circular reasoning; and that he didn't reply to his critics.

Intellectually and experientially: Dr. Craig Keener grew up an agnostic. One day during his teens he met some rather heavy-handed Christians: "You're going to Hell unless...." He dispatched them with hard counter punches. By that time, he thought to himself, these Christians aren't even serious about God. If I knew God existed, I would give it my all. That night he claims that he had a supernatural experience, the presence of God. That jump-started his life-long quest.

Years later he would be an extremely prolific author. His study of the Book of Acts, 3 million words, has been called 'magisterial,' 'epic,' 'the very best study of Acts....' He also wrote a 600,000 page study of miracles. Many of the cases have full medical documentation. He features over 300 cases of blindness alone.
One of the most famous cases involved a teenage girl with a most severe case of multiple sclerosis. Over the years until she was a young adult, her physically condition deteriorated. At the Mayo Clinic, one physician said she was among the worse cases of MS he had ever seen (the names of the MDs and other witnesses are included). When she was given six months to live (she was sent home to her family) her body was twisted, her feet pointed downwards, similarly with her hands. Her intestines were shutting down, she lost all control of her basic bodily functions. She was nearly blind. Yet through all this she was a Christian.

At this point she had lost all hope, that God didn't hear her prayers. Her story was featured in a radio program. Hundreds of listeners began praying for Barbara. Her cousin was reading some of the letters from these listeners. And then Barbara gestured to her cousin that she wanted to say something. She said that she knew God was going to heal her, and to call her parents. Her mother ran in to find Barbara had ripped out all the tubes and was standing on legs that had been atrophied. Her mom bent down and felt her legs, "You have muscles!"
Her dad began to waltz with her around the room. At a prayer service at her church that night, the minister asked if anyone had anything they would like to add. Barbara began walking down the center aisle, and you can imagine the shock and incredulity. Everyone began singing, 'Amazing Grace.' This, of course, is the famous hymn written by a life-long atheist, who in his own words was the most wretched of men, until he was saved by God.

Another scientific study (not as hard to read as 600,000 pages) is from Dr. Candy Brown. She and a medical team went to Mozambique, East Africa to test Heidi Baker, a missionary there for decades, and the site of many alleged miracles, including miracles of healing.
Over two dozen patients were brought and tested, either legally blind or deaf (because these cases can be pre-tested easily); and then Heidi Baker would pray and hold the patient for a few minutes. Immediately afterwards, the patient would be tested again. The majority of the patients experienced incredible healings. For example, 'Ruth' was an elderly woman with vision tested 300/20 and so deaf that a jet engine couldn't faze her -- plainly she couldn't hear a normal conversation. A few minutes later her vision was 80/20 and she could carry on a normal conversation. Dr. Brown explains the misconception that with so few test subjects the study wouldn't be an 'acid test.' However, with the fewer number, the results are actually more astounding. Her husband also has founded the Global Medical Group to scientifically test the effects of prayer on illness.

A study of over 1,000 American MDs shows that over 70% believed they had been involved in cases that could not be explained by naturalistic means, that they were open to the possibility these could be classified as miracles.

If one is of an intellectual frame of mine, I'd suggest Dr. Craig Evans' 'Fabricating Jesus - How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels.' Evans' 'How God Became Jesus' also is an excellent refutation of Dr. Bart Ehrman's 'How Jesus Became God.' Drs. Gary Habermas (resurrection expert), Edwin Yamauchi (a 'scholar's scholar'), Richard Bauckham (one of the tops in 'early high Christology club' an informal 'club' with a focus that Jesus was worshipped as God from very early after the resurrection) are one of several scholars I would recommend that use the strictest methodology. Dr. John A. Bloom, physicist, has written a fine study of Ezekiel's prophecy of Tyre, which skeptics claim is false, along with the rest of the Old Testament prophecies. Bloom also has written a top 80 page paper on the existence of God.

On a concluding note, the message of God as revealed in the Bible is of love. In 1 Corinthians 12 + the apostle Paul encourages believers to seek the highest Gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are supernatural gifts (sorry, Mr. Hume). While the list is varied, it may not be complete. For example, in times of trouble, sometimes a Christian being physically attacked has recounted the attacker being immobilized by an unseen force, such as the case of a Soviet-era Christian hunter who regularly beat up Christians. After experiencing these things, he became a Christian.

The highest Gift, though, is love. "Faith, Hope, Love ... the highest is Love." And from this we can understand how normal humans can be capable of incredible love. The 'fruits' of the spirit are developed by the normal walk through life of the Christian who learns about God, and tries to apply the lessons. But with the Gifts, God helps one supernaturally.

Paul also writes that 'God is love.' Despite all the skeptics, you can prove to yourself if this is true or not. And that is a brief answer on how an atheist can come to belief in God.
Crack open a book of medical anthropology and you'll find similar stories, but involving different cultures, different gods, different religions, and different rituals. And it's overall of poor enough quality healing that there are many efforts to bridge gaps between contemporary medicine and traditional beliefs to get people to seek treatments that will address the actual causes, such as bacteria, rather than attempting to appease the angry spirits of dead ancestors or going on a witch hunt (I read of one interesting story of a tribal shaman who carries a loaded shotgun with him because another tribe is convinced he is a witch).
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Intellectually: David Hume is highly regarded by many atheists by declaring that anything beyond natural law is impossible. Or to put it another way, it seems Hume was saying that he knew the limits of all knowledge. Yet today even the most egotistical person will admit that 'we' (humans) don't know .000000000001% of the how, why, what, where, who, when of existence, to borrow from Kipling. Even in Hume's day critics charged that he was using circular reasoning; and that he didn't reply to his critics.

Intellectually and experientially: Dr. Craig Keener grew up an agnostic. One day during his teens he met some rather heavy-handed Christians: "You're going to Hell unless...." He dispatched them with hard counter punches. By that time, he thought to himself, these Christians aren't even serious about God. If I knew God existed, I would give it my all. That night he claims that he had a supernatural experience, the presence of God. That jump-started his life-long quest.

Years later he would be an extremely prolific author. His study of the Book of Acts, 3 million words, has been called 'magisterial,' 'epic,' 'the very best study of Acts....' He also wrote a 600,000 page study of miracles. Many of the cases have full medical documentation. He features over 300 cases of blindness alone.
One of the most famous cases involved a teenage girl with a most severe case of multiple sclerosis. Over the years until she was a young adult, her physically condition deteriorated. At the Mayo Clinic, one physician said she was among the worse cases of MS he had ever seen (the names of the MDs and other witnesses are included). When she was given six months to live (she was sent home to her family) her body was twisted, her feet pointed downwards, similarly with her hands. Her intestines were shutting down, she lost all control of her basic bodily functions. She was nearly blind. Yet through all this she was a Christian.

At this point she had lost all hope, that God didn't hear her prayers. Her story was featured in a radio program. Hundreds of listeners began praying for Barbara. Her cousin was reading some of the letters from these listeners. And then Barbara gestured to her cousin that she wanted to say something. She said that she knew God was going to heal her, and to call her parents. Her mother ran in to find Barbara had ripped out all the tubes and was standing on legs that had been atrophied. Her mom bent down and felt her legs, "You have muscles!"
Her dad began to waltz with her around the room. At a prayer service at her church that night, the minister asked if anyone had anything they would like to add. Barbara began walking down the center aisle, and you can imagine the shock and incredulity. Everyone began singing, 'Amazing Grace.' This, of course, is the famous hymn written by a life-long atheist, who in his own words was the most wretched of men, until he was saved by God.

Another scientific study (not as hard to read as 600,000 pages) is from Dr. Candy Brown. She and a medical team went to Mozambique, East Africa to test Heidi Baker, a missionary there for decades, and the site of many alleged miracles, including miracles of healing.
Over two dozen patients were brought and tested, either legally blind or deaf (because these cases can be pre-tested easily); and then Heidi Baker would pray and hold the patient for a few minutes. Immediately afterwards, the patient would be tested again. The majority of the patients experienced incredible healings. For example, 'Ruth' was an elderly woman with vision tested 300/20 and so deaf that a jet engine couldn't faze her -- plainly she couldn't hear a normal conversation. A few minutes later her vision was 80/20 and she could carry on a normal conversation. Dr. Brown explains the misconception that with so few test subjects the study wouldn't be an 'acid test.' However, with the fewer number, the results are actually more astounding. Her husband also has founded the Global Medical Group to scientifically test the effects of prayer on illness.

A study of over 1,000 American MDs shows that over 70% believed they had been involved in cases that could not be explained by naturalistic means, that they were open to the possibility these could be classified as miracles.

If one is of an intellectual frame of mine, I'd suggest Dr. Craig Evans' 'Fabricating Jesus - How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels.' Evans' 'How God Became Jesus' also is an excellent refutation of Dr. Bart Ehrman's 'How Jesus Became God.' Drs. Gary Habermas (resurrection expert), Edwin Yamauchi (a 'scholar's scholar'), Richard Bauckham (one of the tops in 'early high Christology club' an informal 'club' with a focus that Jesus was worshipped as God from very early after the resurrection) are one of several scholars I would recommend that use the strictest methodology. Dr. John A. Bloom, physicist, has written a fine study of Ezekiel's prophecy of Tyre, which skeptics claim is false, along with the rest of the Old Testament prophecies. Bloom also has written a top 80 page paper on the existence of God.

On a concluding note, the message of God as revealed in the Bible is of love. In 1 Corinthians 12 + the apostle Paul encourages believers to seek the highest Gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are supernatural gifts (sorry, Mr. Hume). While the list is varied, it may not be complete. For example, in times of trouble, sometimes a Christian being physically attacked has recounted the attacker being immobilized by an unseen force, such as the case of a Soviet-era Christian hunter who regularly beat up Christians. After experiencing these things, he became a Christian.

The highest Gift, though, is love. "Faith, Hope, Love ... the highest is Love." And from this we can understand how normal humans can be capable of incredible love. The 'fruits' of the spirit are developed by the normal walk through life of the Christian who learns about God, and tries to apply the lessons. But with the Gifts, God helps one supernaturally.

Paul also writes that 'God is love.' Despite all the skeptics, you can prove to yourself if this is true or not. And that is a brief answer on how an atheist can come to belief in God.
Doctors gave Hawking 1 year to live and he lived a complete and fulfilling life....without praying to any God. The progression/cure rate of any disease is a statistical average, there will always be cases of spontaneous remission and cases where the disease progression is far worse than the average.
And you do understand that spontaneous remission are the case where the immune system succeeds in successfully targeting the source of the disease. So such cases are hardly miraculous.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
.LAZY bigfoot science. Look i have evidence of bigfoot.

Why the topic god is always pressed as big foot by atheist believers and and atheist non believers i have no idea.View attachment 24661

LAZY SCIENCE? Speaking as a former skeptic, I love (not!) how skeptics:

1) Will agree that it's fun to spend millions on SETI (shoot signals into space to contact unproven entities) while never agreeing to

2) Pray for free to God (say a few words into space to contact an unproved entity) who offers eternal life

Lazy science, indeed. Lazy gedanken, too.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Why do you suppose god hates amputees?

Assumption 1: God has never healed an amputee. Who is to say that in the history of the world, God has never caused a limb to regenerate? To say, "I have no empirical evidence that limbs can regenerate; therefore, no amputee has ever been healed in the history of the world" is akin to saying "I have no empirical evidence that rabbits live in my yard; therefore, no rabbit has ever lived on this ground in the history of the world." It’s a conclusion that simply cannot be drawn. Besides, we have the historical record of Jesus healing lepers, some of whom we may assume had lost digits or facial features. In each case, the lepers were restored whole (Mark 1:40-42; Luke 17:12-14). Also, there is the case of the man with the shriveled hand (Matthew 12:9-13), and the restoration of Malchus's severed ear (Luke 22:50-51), not to mention the fact that Jesus raised the dead (Matthew 11:5; John 11), which would undeniably be even more difficult than healing an amputee.

Assumption 2: God’s goodness and love require Him to heal everyone. Illness, suffering, and pain are the result of our living in a cursed world—cursed because of our sin (Genesis 3:16-19; Romans 8:20-22). God’s goodness and love moved Him to provide a Savior to redeem us from the curse (1 John 4:9-10), but our ultimate redemption will not be realized until God has made a final end of sin in the world. Until that time, we are still subject to physical death.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Crack open a book of medical anthropology and you'll find similar stories, but involving different cultures, different gods, different religions, and different rituals. And it's overall of poor enough quality healing that there are many efforts to bridge gaps between contemporary medicine and traditional beliefs to get people to seek treatments that will address the actual causes, such as bacteria, rather than attempting to appease the angry spirits of dead ancestors or going on a witch hunt (I read of one interesting story of a tribal shaman who carries a loaded shotgun with him because another tribe is convinced he is a witch).

In other words, 70% of modern doctors are morons who don't read/don't understand medical anthropology. They don't realize that when in the face of their awesome, intensive training, they're just being "superstitious" when they SEE and EXPERIENCE inexplicable healing.

Maybe the people didn't really heal, you know, like at a church service run by hucksters, using shills. The doctors are so stupid that when they see the statistically improbably remissions from disease and miracle healings from traumas, that they don't understand their patients didn't really heal at all, spontaneously, instantly, rather, their patients were released from the hospital, only to die soon after.

We should revoke 70% of medical licenses because doctors don't understand medical anthropology and are killing their patients when they say, "WOW, how did ALL of these healings occur?"
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Doctors gave Hawking 1 year to live and he lived a complete and fulfilling life....without praying to any God. The progression/cure rate of any disease is a statistical average, there will always be cases of spontaneous remission and cases where the disease progression is far worse than the average.
And you do understand that spontaneous remission are the case where the immune system succeeds in successfully targeting the source of the disease. So such cases are hardly miraculous.

Sounds like you never heard, Hawking was attending church.

Oh, we forgot, that one anomaly is not statistically significant in the face of 70% of doctors! And of course, 70% of doctors just don't understand spontaneous remission, the wonders of the human creation, and the immune system. Should we revoke the 70% of doctors' licenses who already know all this and still testify to you that God heals?!
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
A study of over 1,000 American MDs shows that over 70% believed they had been involved in cases that could not be explained by naturalistic means, that they were open to the possibility these could be classified as miracles.
Could be. That means could NOT be, too.

Hey, I had a stroke back when I was 33, I literally died, and after I revived my prognosis was "prolonged vegetative state for life". Here I am 7 years later, working full time, walking, talking, fully functional member of society. My recovery has been described by doctors as "miraculous". That doesn't mean it was a miracle, per se. Or that the explanation for such things will forever be unknown to science, just that it's unknown to today's science. Beware of invoking the God of the Gaps. The gaps have a tendency to shrink, and make such arguments look foolish.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Sounds like you never heard, Hawking was attending church.

Oh, we forgot, that one anomaly is not statistically significant in the face of 70% of doctors! And of course, 70% of doctors just don't understand spontaneous remission, the wonders of the human creation, and the immune system. Should we revoke the 70% of doctors' licenses who already know all this and still testify to you that God heals?!
You know why appeals to authority are a bad idea?

appeal-to-authority-doctors-and-camels.png


A4r4OaeCMAEhwB5.jpg
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
LAZY SCIENCE? Speaking as a former skeptic, I love (not!) how skeptics:

1) Will agree that it's fun to spend millions on SETI (shoot signals into space to contact unproven entities) while never agreeing to

2) Pray for free to God (say a few words into space to contact an unproved entity) who offers eternal life

Lazy science, indeed. Lazy gedanken, too.
I like that new word. The universities pretend to be teaching critical thinking. I dont think that is literally possible. What accedamia teaches is individual variations of biased pespectives that believes its not biased.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The late, great comedian Mitch Hedberg speculated that the reason pictures of bigfoot are always out of focus is that bigfoot just IS blurry. :) His concern is that there is a large, out-of-focus monster running around in the woods.
I recently heard him (obviously its a male hipster that has gone to far) refered to as an inter dimentional being.

I deal in only one single dimension that is extremely invisible, ignored and most blantly most dont believe exists. I call it reality.
 
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