• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Works vs Doctrine

Oeste

Well-Known Member
You quote the unknown author of Luke, supposedly an associate of the false prophet Paul.

The author of scripture is God. As to their human writers, many of them are unknown. That includes the Old and New Testaments.
The writer of Luke was most likely...Luke. As for showing Paul to be a "false prophet" you certainly have your work cut out for you. Amazing claims require even more amazing evidence.

Was Yeshua "today", to be in "Paradise", or in the belly of the whale for 3 days and 3 nights? As for John 5:24, "those that hear" would be the "few" (Mt 7:13)

Abraham's bosom can also refer to paradise, but this is off thread theme.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
The author of scripture is God. As to their human writers, many of them are unknown. That includes the Old and New Testaments.
The writer of Luke was most likely...Luke. As for showing Paul to be a "false prophet" you certainly have your work cut out for you. Amazing claims require even more amazing evidence.

Abraham's bosom can also refer to paradise, but this is off thread theme.

The "Scripture" quoted by Yeshua, was not from the false prophet Paul, or his supposed associates. Paul and the babel of his associates, would be listed as the "tare" seed planted by the "enemy" (Matthew 13). As for your canon, established in 367 AD by the Roman church bishop of Alexandria, enough said. As for false prophets, you only need one false prophecy. That would be Paul's false prophecy of "we shall be changed" 1 Corinthians 15:52. The problem is that Paul and his followers were changed from perishable to perished, not imperishable. As for the contributors of the gospel of Luke, they were unspecified individuals, not God (Luke 1:1-3)

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.…
 
Last edited:

kjw47

Well-Known Member
So your answer is "No, I cannot answer your questions".

I didn't think you could because you won't find them at the bottom of a Watchtower.

Thanks anyways @kjw47!



I did answer you. Its YOU who refuse truth. I shared what the bible actually teaches about the thief. Truth does not enter darkness. Its why when the JW teachers corrected the errors that came in over 1750 years and made this a reality-Daniel 12:4--those remaining in the darkness reject truth. There excuse is--it wasn't taught from the start. They have 0 understanding of Dan 12:4
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
The "Scripture" quoted by Yeshua, was not from the false prophet Paul, or his supposed associates. Paul and the babel of his associates, would be listed as the "tare" seed planted by the "enemy" (Matthew 13). As for your canon, established in 367 AD by the Roman church bishop of Alexandria, enough said. As for false prophets, you only need one false prophecy. That would be Paul's false prophecy of "we shall be changed" 1 Corinthians 15:52. The problem is that Paul and his followers were changed from perishable to perished, not imperishable. As for the contributors of the gospel of Luke, they were unspecified individuals, not God (Luke 1:1-3)

Wow! So you have a much smaller canon. Are there books you felt were left out?
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
I did answer you. Its YOU who refuse truth. I shared what the bible actually teaches about the thief. Truth does not enter darkness. Its why when the JW teachers corrected the errors that came in over 1750 years and made this a reality-Daniel 12:4--those remaining in the darkness reject truth. There excuse is--it wasn't taught from the start. They have 0 understanding of Dan 12:4

No, you haven't answer.There were at least 10 questions still outstanding. "Truth does not enter darkness" and "JW teachers corrected the errors" does not answer anything.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
No, you haven't answer.There were at least 10 questions still outstanding. "Truth does not enter darkness" and "JW teachers corrected the errors" does not answer anything.

I did answer you, It wont sink in because its not the answer you want or expect.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Wow! So you have a much smaller canon. Are there books you felt were left out?

There are several canons with regards to the books of the NT, but the generally used canon by the "Christian" churches, is the one published in 367 AD by Athanasius, the same guy who helped push through the Trinity hoax at the Council of Nicaea in 325. There is nothing holy about the Holy Roman Catholic church, their bishops, or their canon. This is the "end of the age". Their pope, supposedly holding the keys of the house of David (Isaiah 22:22), is going down in flames (Isaiah 22:25). This is the time for the "stumbling blocks" and "those who commit lawlessness" to be "gathered" and burned (Matthew 13:39-42). The "tares" the followers of your leader and teacher, Paul, are to be the "first" "gathered" and "burned" (Matthew 13:30). They will find their beds to short to sleep in (Isaiah 28:19-20)
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
There are several canons with regards to the books of the NT, but the generally used canon by the "Christian" churches, is the one published in 367 AD by Athanasius, the same guy who helped push through the Trinity hoax at the Council of Nicaea in 325. There is nothing holy about the Holy Roman Catholic church, their bishops, or their canon. This is the "end of the age". Their pope, supposedly holding the keys of the house of David (Isaiah 22:22), is going down in flames (Isaiah 22:25). This is the time for the "stumbling blocks" and "those who commit lawlessness" to be "gathered" and burned (Matthew 13:39-42). The "tares" the followers of your leader and teacher, Paul, are to be the "first" "gathered" and "burned" (Matthew 13:30). They will find their beds to short to sleep in (Isaiah 28:19-20)

Sounds like you have your own private interpretation of scripture or belong to an isolated/secular community which views itself as the only "true" Christians. But as stated before, spectacular claims require spectacular evidence.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Sounds like you have your own private interpretation of scripture or belong to an isolated/secular community which views itself as the only "true" Christians. But as stated before, spectacular claims require spectacular evidence.

"Christianity" is the religion based on the "doctrine" of the false gospel of Paul, which is the false gospel of grace/cross. The daughter of Babylon, the Roman church, and her daughters, rides on the original authority of the Roman empire (Revelation 17:3), which acts by the authority of the "dragon"/devil (Revelation 13:4). Your "definition of scripture" comes from the belly of the beast, a festal letter from the bishop Athanasius, in the year 367 A.D. You have nailed "Scripture" to the cross, and have embraced the "tare seed" (Matthew 13). Good luck with that.
 
Last edited:

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Then we should be seeing about 10 answers.



Yes, I wanted and expected more in your response. Surprisingly you delivered even less than expected. So I have to admit @kjw47, you definitely got me there!

Thanks anyway.


Ask me a question.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I believe works are involved but not for salvation.

I find faith is involved for salvation, especially at the soon coming ' time of separation ' on to take place on Earth as per Matthew 25:31-33. Please notice the 'works' those humble sheep-like ones do according to Matthew 25:38-40.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Jesus said he would see the thief in paradise, not before his judgment throne.
You have no explanation for the thief. Read Luke 23:43 and John 5:24 again.

I find the judgement throne in located in Heaven as per Revelation 3:21.
I find on the other hand, paradise is located on Earth as was the paradisical Garden of Eden was on Earth.
Since No one is called to Heaven before the death of Jesus - John 3:13; Matthew 11:11, then that thief will be in paradise ( Jesus millennium-long day of governing over Earth ) on Earth as mentioned at Revelation 22:2 when there will be healing for earth's nations in fulfilment of Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18 that ALL nations of Earth will be blessed. Blessed with the benefit of healing ( a healthy physical resurrection for those who can gain everlasting life on Earth such as that thief was offered ).
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Works and faith = salvation is like a choo choo train.

The believer is behind the controls
The train is his body
The motor is the holy spirit
The believer's faith is the motor so that the train can move

The only way the train can actually move is by pushing the gas pedal (works)

Once you push the gas pedal, god's works work through you to move the train. That is the act of faith.

But you cannot be saved if your faith does not lead you to move the train. If you are waiting for god to move the train, you would be waiting all day. But you cannot be saved if you are hoping god will move the train all because you believe he will. Belief does not equate to action. If anything, without action, its a dead train.

A dead train means wasted gas. God cant work through you nor save you in a dead train.
 
Last edited:

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I find the judgement throne in located in Heaven as per Revelation 3:21.
I find on the other hand, paradise is located on Earth as was the paradisical Garden of Eden was on Earth.
Since No one is called to Heaven before the death of Jesus - John 3:13; Matthew 11:11, then that thief will be in paradise ( Jesus millennium-long day of governing over Earth ) on Earth as mentioned at Revelation 22:2 when there will be healing for earth's nations in fulfilment of Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18 that ALL nations of Earth will be blessed. Blessed with the benefit of healing ( a healthy physical resurrection for those who can gain everlasting life on Earth such as that thief was offered ).

Sorry, but there is no "judgment throne" in Revelation 3:21. As for "all the nations of the Earth will be blessed" Revelation 22:2, only those with washed robes may enter the gate, outside are the immoral, murderers, and liars Revelation 22:14-15.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Sorry, but there is no "judgment throne" in Revelation 3:21. As for "all the nations of the Earth will be blessed" Revelation 22:2, only those with washed robes may enter the gate, outside are the immoral, murderers, and liars Revelation 22:14-15.

Those ' thrones' are located in heaven. Heavenly New Jerusalem in located in Heaven - Galatians 4:26.
So, I find judgement comes from Heaven and Not earthly sources.
God promised father Abraham at Genesis 12:3 and Genesis 22:18 that ALL families and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed.
That will happen after the wicked are destroyed forever as per Psalms 92:7. They are the 'outside' ones of Revelation 21:8.
The executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.
The upright will remain - Proverbs 2:21-22.
So, that means the humble meek people will inherit the Earth as mentioned at Psalms 37:9-11.
Whereas those of Revelation 20:6 have a first or earlier resurrection to Heaven to govern over Earth with Christ.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
"Christianity" is the religion based on the "doctrine" of the false gospel of Paul, which is the false gospel of grace/cross. The daughter of Babylon, the Roman church, and her daughters, rides on the original authority of the Roman empire (Revelation 17:3), which acts by the authority of the "dragon"/devil (Revelation 13:4). Your "definition of scripture" comes from the belly of the beast, a festal letter from the bishop Athanasius, in the year 367 A.D. You have nailed "Scripture" to the cross, and have embraced the "tare seed" (Matthew 13). Good luck with that.

That's just flat out weird 2ndpillar! Where do you come up with this stuff?

Care to share which New Testament books, if any, are part of your official canon, or is it secret, given only to the few?
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
I find the judgement throne in located in Heaven as per Revelation 3:21.

Agreed

I find on the other hand, paradise is located on Earth as was the paradisical Garden of Eden was on Earth.

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.
3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—
4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.​

I think its pretty clear the paradise he was caught up to was not of this earth.

Since No one is called to Heaven before the death of Jesus - John 3:13; Matthew 11:11, then that thief will be in paradise ( Jesus millennium-long day of governing over Earth ) on Earth as mentioned at Revelation 22:2 when there will be healing for earth's nations in fulfilment of Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18 that ALL nations of Earth will be blessed. Blessed with the benefit of healing ( a healthy physical resurrection for those who can gain everlasting life on Earth such as that thief was offered ).

This does not explain the thief. Not one...zilch, nada, zero...New Testament author makes the case the thief was unjustly accused, or an innocent man on his cross.

If our salvation is works based then by definition thievery is one possible path to Christian salvation. And if it's faith plus works, then you must have faith in your own work....thievery... in order to be granted salvation.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Agreed
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.
3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—
4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.​
I think its pretty clear the paradise he was caught up to was not of this earth.
If our salvation is works based then by definition thievery is one possible path to Christian salvation. And if it's faith plus works, then you must have faith in your own work....thievery... in order to be granted salvation.

Please notice what is the ' third heaven ' as found at 2 Peter 3:13.
I find the 'first heaven' at 2 Peter 3:5 is the heavens of OLD ( Noah's day)
The 'second heaven' at 2 Peter 3:7 is the heavens of NOW ( meaning from Noah's day to our day ).
So, the ' third heaven ' is the NEW heavens in connection to the NEW ' cleansed ' Earth under Christ.
So, he was caught up in the future time when righteousness will dwell right here on Earth as per 2 Peter 3:13 B.

I find Jesus promised one thief ' paradise ' (Not Heaven) on the day Jesus died.
Since Jesus went to biblical hell the day he died as per Acts of the Apostles 2:27, then Jesus did Not go to Heaven the day he died.
Since the thief was Not a baptized follower, and died before Jesus was resurrected, then that thief will have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection back to live life on a beautiful paradisical Earth under Christ's coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth in righteousness.
 
Top