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The Devil, Satan, and Lucifer. One in the same or Not?

Skwim

Veteran Member
Said by who, though?
Assuming you're referring to the "bad stuff," how about:

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world

Matthew 16:23
But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me.

1 Chronicles 21:1
Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel. (It was considered a sin to number Israel)

2 Thessalonians 2:9 ESV / 59 helpful votes
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,

Luke 13:16
And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath day?

1 Thessalonians 2:18
Because we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, again and again—but Satan hindered us.

1 Corinthians 7:5
Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

1 Corinthians 7:5
Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Revelation 20:7-10
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

Acts 5:3
But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?​


But yes, Ha-Satan cannot act without prior authorization by Yahweh; this is pretty clearly illustrated in the book of Job, especially once one understand that in Hebrew culture and faith,
there's no doubt that god used Satan to carry out his dirty deeds but Satan also worked on his own, which is why it's said

Romans 16:20
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.​

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sealchan

Well-Known Member
In the Bible there are there three supernatural "badies."

The Devil, Satan, and Lucifer.

Luke 4:2 (KJV)
Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.

Job 2:7 (KJV)
7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Isaiah 14:12 (KJV)
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

As I ask in my title, what difference, if any, is there between the three? If there isn't any difference then why bothering to use three different names?

I think that Lucifer (and any other name) and Jesus are two of a kind with a history going back to creation. Perhaps as with Gods other chosen ones Jesus and Lucifer were compared and Jesus won. To me Lucifer is more like God and Jesus more like the Goddess. Maybe they were brothers who fought like we hear so much about in Genesis.

Maybe they are remnants from the mythic content used to create their stories.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Satan
Satan is the servant of god, an angel. his duty is to bring temptation by offering the opposite.
Then what was he doing binding the daughter of Abraham for eighteen years? Or inciting David to number Israel?

god likes it this way so we can build character.
So when god was putting together the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, and everything else, he didn't intend for A&E to have any character? Whoa!

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The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Assuming you're referring to the "bad stuff," how about:
Oh, I know where it all says it. I was more alluding that it's said by Christians, rather than Judaism. However regarding Matt 16:23, Jesus is calling Peter satan not in the proper noun form of the word, but the adjective form. He wasn't calling Peter the devil, but more saying that Peter was opposing the "Will of God" and needed to fall in line. That's a big contributor to Christian confusion on the word satan; there is the proper noun form - the figure of Satan or Ha-Satan - and there's the adjective form that can indicate anyone and everyone who is opposing divine will and order.

there's no doubt that god used Satan to carry out his dirty deeds but Satan also worked on his own, which is why it's said
Romans 16:20
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
Given that Romans is an epistle (an artistic form of formal writing, rather than a simple letter) from Paul to the Romans, is it truly a reliable source of theological principle on Satan and his method of operation, though? Romans was written somewhere in the 3rd Century, when Christian theology was more-or-less separated and Romanized from Jewish theology. It's difficult to tell whether Paul is setting "Satan" up to be a catch-all adversary, speaking of temptation in general, or directly referencing the Hebrew figure of Ha-Satan. It's also very contradictory and Roman that a god "of peace" would crush or war against anything.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Obviously this is in the Bible somewhere. Please point it out if you would.



Doesn't really tell me much, does it.

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If you read Isaiah 14:12--"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Now Notice what Christ Jesus said in
Luke 10:18---"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven"

Isn't that amazing, in Isaiah 14:12, We find Lucifer fallen from heaven.

And in Luke 10:18 We find Christ Jesus saying, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

It doesn't take much to figure out 2+2=4,
Lucifer = Satan, fallen from heaven.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
If you read Isaiah 14:12--"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Now Notice what Christ Jesus said in
Luke 10:18---"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven"

Isn't that amazing, in Isaiah 14:12, We find Lucifer fallen from heaven.

And in Luke 10:18 We find Christ Jesus saying, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

It doesn't take much to figure out 2+2=4,
First of all Isaiah 14:12 describes what happened to Lucifer. He fell from heaven to the ground.

Secondly, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" doesn't equate Satan as being lightening, an electrostatic atmospheric discharge that's seen to strike the ground. The "as" indicates that what follows is a simile meant to compare the two elements; Satan and lightening. Identity, which is what we have in Isaiah 14:12, is not the same as the comparison we have in Luke 10:18

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Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
First of all Isaiah 14:12 describes what happened to Lucifer. He fell from heaven to the ground.

Secondly, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" doesn't equate Satan as being lightening, an electrostatic atmospheric discharge that's seen to strike the ground. The "as" indicates that what follows is a simile meant to compare the two elements; Satan and lightening. Identity, which is what we have in Isaiah 14:12, is not the same as the comparison we have in Luke 10:18

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You can't be serious

Christ Jesus didn't say Satan was lightening, He said saw Satan (as) lightening fall from heaven.
No more than saying, saw an apple fall as a pear.
It's not saying the apple is a pear, but fallen like a pear.
Therefore Jesus said, he saw Satan ( as) lightening fall from heaven.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Yes. As I said as well, he's the Roman deity of the dawn. But those names are certainly different than what you were saying it meant; "day star" or "morning star".
Strong's Hebrew: 1966. הֵילֵל (helel) -- a shining one
Strong's Concordance
helel: a shining one
Original Word: הֵילֵל
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: helel
Phonetic Spelling: (hay-lale')
Short Definition: morning

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from halal
Definition
a shining one

NASB Translation
star of the morning (1).

הֵילֵל Isaiah 14:12 see below הלל.
הִים see הוּם.

הֵילֵל noun masculine appellative shining one, epithet of king of Babylon, בֶּןשָֿׁ֑חַר ׳אֵיךְ נָפַלְתָּ מִשָּׁמַיִם הIsaiah 14:12 how art thou fallen, shinning one, son of dawn ! i.e. star of the morning. (compare Assyrian muštilil, epithet of (Venus a) morning-star III R Isaiah 57:60 OppJAS 1871, 448 SchrSK 1874, 337 COTad. loc.)

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
lucifer
From halal (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star -- lucifer.

see HEBREW halal
Strong's Hebrew: 1984. הָלַל (halal) -- shine

Which source are you using, may I ask?
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
It's a parallel that was made from Classical Mythology (specifically Roman mythology built on Greek mythology). If they (Christians) wanted a better parallel, they should have gone with the Canaanite figure of Attar.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
It's a parallel that was made from Classical Mythology (specifically Roman mythology built on Greek mythology). If they (Christians) wanted a better parallel, they should have gone with the Canaanite figure of Attar.
The Hebrew writers used stars to represent kings, not gods.
Isaiah 14:13 reads...
You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to the heavens. Above the stars of God I will lift up my throne, And I will sit down on the mountain of meeting, In the remotest parts of the north.
The "stars of God” likely referred to the line kings through king David, who ruled from Mount Zion.

The Vulgate was created in the middle of the fourth century, and inference the KJV.
Some, after this made connections to Greco-Roman mythology.

Lucifer - Wikipedia
Lucifer (/ˈljuːsɪfər/ LEW-si-fər) is a name that, according to dictionaries of the English language, refers either to the Devil or to the planet Venus when appearing as the morning star.

As a name for the Devil, the more common meaning in English, "Lucifer" is the rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל‎ in Isaiah (Isaiah 14:12) given in the King James Version of the Bible. The translators of this version took the word from the Latin Vulgate, which translated הֵילֵל by the Latin word lucifer (uncapitalized), meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing".

As a name for the morning star, "Lucifer" is a proper name and is capitalized in English. In Greco-Roman civilization the morning star was also personified and considered a pagan god.


This has nothing to do with first century Christians, nor the Septuagint, nor the early Hebrew writings.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
First of all Isaiah 14:12 describes what happened to Lucifer. He fell from heaven to the ground.

Secondly, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" doesn't equate Satan as being lightening, an electrostatic atmospheric discharge that's seen to strike the ground. The "as" indicates that what follows is a simile meant to compare the two elements; Satan and lightening. Identity, which is what we have in Isaiah 14:12, is not the same as the comparison we have in Luke 10:18

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Actually it is... don't be so literal.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I think you're missing a lot of what I'm saying regarding Lucifer, npeace. This here:


That is Lucifer. What he was and is before the enormous mess that you Christians made of him.
Yes, the "Christians" today sure made a mess of things, I agree. For one thing, failing to understand that Isaiah 14, is speaking about a human ruler - the king of Babylon, and not the wicked spirit creature called the devil.

That was not the case with the first century Christians, who understood the use of the term shine, as used in the Hebrew texts, and understood that stars shed light, or shone, and thus, the king of Babylon shone brightly in the ancient world and could be termed “shining one".

So what are you saying "shining one" in Isaiah referred to... not the king of Babylon? Where does the Hebrew scriptures say otherwise?
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Okay, I wasn't talking about Christians today. I am saying - clearly, I thought - that whoever translated the bible from the Hebrew texts did a ****-poor job of it, and inflicted a mish-mash of cultures and names in a sloppy manner.
 

Dell

Asteroid insurance?
In the Bible there are there three supernatural "badies."

The Devil, Satan, and Lucifer.

Luke 4:2 (KJV)
Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.

Job 2:7 (KJV)
7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Isaiah 14:12 (KJV)
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

As I ask in my title, what difference, if any, is there between the three? If there isn't any difference then why bothering to use three different names?

It seems "they" or it gets a lot of credit by Christian's for everything that goes wrong in the day. How many preachers I've heard say the devil did this or o'l Satan did that to them from flat tires to causing church splits...;)

It's also strange how demonic activity was so active in the time of Christ and nowhere to be found anytime else in history.. except maybe at Salem during the witch trials in 1692...:eek:

It's also strange how much Satan and the underworld was written about in the new testament as compared to the old testament. Very interesting history about apocalyptic Jewish sects prior to Jesus and what they taught about good versus evil, God vs Satan, the world system, etc... What things Jesus was claimed to have taught about hell and the judgement was nothing new. Its origins didn't come from the old testament era Jews.
 
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