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God Chose Them but For What Purpose?

Do you believe they are setting a good example for us to follow?

  • yes

    Votes: 3 60.0%
  • no

    Votes: 1 20.0%
  • have not decided yet

    Votes: 1 20.0%

  • Total voters
    5
  • Poll closed .

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The records were not kept in the Temple. Why would they be? They were kept by the individual families and passed down the generations.

It wasn't just the temple that was destroyed though, was it? The whole city was sacked by the Romans after an horrendous siege. What do you think remained after such a destruction? My sources tell me that the records were destroyed in 70CE. Do you have proof that they were not? Can a person provide a verified genealogy dating back to King David...and how many of such people exist in Israel?

But even that aside, this problem is resolved in two ways: Someone who is capable of fulfilling every single other property, pretty much guarantees that he's David's descendant. No one else can/has successfully fulfilled them all to date.

We believe Jesus did. He certainly fulfilled more Messianic prophesy than any other man ever has.

Along with the Messiah's arrival, we expect Elijah the Prophet to come and resolve many other problems. He - as a prophet, can definitely determine the lineage of the Messiah.

"Elijah" came in the person of John the Baptist. He certainly verified Jesus as Messiah, yet even though the people believed that John was a prophet, the Jewish leaders of the day despised him because he did not support them or their teachings. He exposed them as hypocrites, just as Jesus did.

This's your non-Scriptural position. And it seems you're only bringing it because you can't recall what the original point you were trying to make was.

You said...."It was through the code of Law that Adam expressed his obeisance to his Creator. Without a Law, there is nothing to obey (Gen. 2:15). But again, this has nothing to do with anything."

Adam was not under any law. He had only one negative command....'don't eat the fruit of the tree that belongs to God or you will die'.
The Law of Moses was given to Israel because of the sin of Adam. Sinful humans need laws...perfect humans don't. Yet free will still needs to be exercised within reasonable limits set by the Creator. The Patriarchs lived before the Law was given and they still knew what God's standards were. Look at Job....and Abraham.

Why do you assume that we would exist altogether and why do you assume that only Adam would go through such a trial and not any later generation, had he succeeded?

Because humans rebelled before they had children, no human was in existence to show them the opposite of what we have now.
Humanity started off on the wrong foot, thanks to the first rebel who tempted the woman. All we have ever known is sin and its consequences. All we have ever had to deal with in this life is suffering and death. Look in the Genesis account and see if death was ever to take place as a natural occurrence? We all die because of what Adam did. God providing his Messiah was to undo the damage Adam did to us. What is the purpose of Messiah's Kingdom to Jews?

There' no condition attached to the statement.

"IF" is a condition. Your scripture says "IF". Your approach to translation is very loose IMO.

"And now, if only you would listen to My voice and keep my covenant and be for Me a treasure out of all peoples, for Mine is the whole land!".

This is a very straightforward request. G-d is begging us to listen to His commandments and be close to Him. Isn't that the love of a Father?

The love of a father necessitates discipline when necessary. Under God's law, children who disrespected or called down evil upon their parents were to be put to death.....if Israel disrespected their Father, by disobeying his commandments, what penalty did they expect? How was the love of a father expressed in that case? (Leviticus 20:9) How is it expressed now?

No, this translation is necessary because elsewhere in the Tanach we are told (repeatedly) that the covenant is eternal. The nature of an eternal covenant, is that it can't be broken. Therefore the verse here can't be a condition to the existence of the covenant.

The covenant is eternal but according to scripture, “All the nations” will be blessed through Abraham's seed. God told this to Abraham the Hebrew before the Jewish nation had even come into existence. So, while God later dealt with the Jews exclusively for a time, the real, ultimate blessing is for people of all nations. The Jews were merely the ones who would physically produce the Messiah.
We have every reason to believe that God was so frustrated with Israel's incorrigible mindset that he actually changed the definition of what it meant to be "Jewish" in order to fulfill his covenant with those who were "not his people" but became his people. (Hosea 2:23)

I believe that the new covenant is already in force with 'spiritual' Israel because literal Israel simply counted on being Abraham's children....but they never did emulate his faith and obedience, and God's patience has limits.

This is what I believe. I know you will never agree, but I find your arguments very shallow....sorry.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
It wasn't just the temple that was destroyed though, was it? The whole city was sacked by the Romans after an horrendous siege. What do you think remained after such a destruction? My sources tell me that the records were destroyed in 70CE. Do you have proof that they were not? Can a person provide a verified genealogy dating back to King David...and how many of such people exist in Israel?
I don't know what your sources are, but they're definitely wrong. Why would someone forget his tribal or familial affiliation just because a record somewhere was destroyed (if there even existed such a record in the first place). Families kept their own records and not all Jewish families lived in Jerusalem. And even among those that did, important families wouldn't forget where they come from between the time the siege began until after the destruction. The descendants of Jeconiah were still known 500 years after the Temple was destroyed, in the family of the exilarchs. Hillel the Elder and his descendant whom you know, Rabban Gamiliel, were from the tribe of Benjamin. We had Rabbis living in Babylon who were from the family of Eli the Priest (there was an issue with them dying young). Your sources are without question, wrong.

I don't know if anyone has verified genealogy nor how one would go about verifying it. These people are not around to ask whether x is indeed their child.


We believe Jesus did. He certainly fulfilled more Messianic prophesy than any other man ever has.
Even if that were true, that is obviously not enough. G-d didn't provide a list or prophecies and just require that the majority of them be fulfilled. He gave the list of prophecies because they would all be fulfilled.

And obviously Jesus fulfill anything that could clearly be described as a Messianic prophecy, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. You have to resort to lifting passages out of context or granting them dual meanings in order to come up with "prophecies" that he fulfilled.

"Elijah" came in the person of John the Baptist. He certainly verified Jesus as Messiah, yet even though the people believed that John was a prophet, the Jewish leaders of the day despised him because he did not support them or their teachings. He exposed them as hypocrites, just as Jesus did.
Who proved that John was Elijah?

You said...."It was through the code of Law that Adam expressed his obeisance to his Creator. Without a Law, there is nothing to obey (Gen. 2:15). But again, this has nothing to do with anything."

Adam was not under any law. He had only one negative command....'don't eat the fruit of the tree that belongs to God or you will die'.

First of all, being under one commandment is still being under a Law. Second of all, he was actually charged with a number of Laws, some of which can be found in Gen. 2:15. Had he and his descendants not been charged with any other Laws, than Cain was unjustly punished. How can he sin, when there is no Law to transgress?

The Law of Moses was given to Israel because of the sin of Adam. Sinful humans need laws...perfect humans don't. Yet free will still needs to be exercised within reasonable limits set by the Creator. The Patriarchs lived before the Law was given and they still knew what God's standards were. Look at Job....and Abraham.
That is a ridiculous assertion. The famous Passover sacrifice was given to remind us that we were taken out of Egypt by G-d. This is totally unrelated to sin. The Thanksgiving sacrifice Law was given as a method to express appreciation to G-d. How does being forbidden from eating from a fruit tree or grape vine for it's first three years relate to sin? How does sitting in a hut in order to recall G-d miraculously taking us out of Egypt in Clouds of Glory, relate to sin? Giving a Levite the First Tithe? Eating the Second Tithe in Jerusalem? Wearing fringes on cornered garments - and there's meant to be a blue one in there? Taking the four species? Spitting into the shoe of a man who refuses to marry his childless dead brother's wife? Etc., etc., etc., etc. No, sorry. The Law of Moses was definitely not given to us because of the sin of Adam. Psa. 119 is not the language that you would use to describe such a Law.

Not only that, but clearly Adam had to be given a Law as we saw above and that was before he sinned. And the reason is obvious. The Law is not because of sin, it's the parameters that determine in which areas of our lives G-d will test us. Adam, whose life time was meant to take place in the Garden of Eden, was tested through his interactions with the Garden: Would he eat from the tree? Would he work the Garden? Would he guard the Garden? Us, whose lives go through multiple phases and experiences are tested through many different ways. Would we show the resolve to refrain from partaking in foods that G-d prohibits? Would we express gratitude to G-d for the miracles that He performed for us in the past, and for the kindnesses He does for us in the present?

I don't know how you determined that Job lived before the Law was given.

Because humans rebelled before they had children, no human was in existence to show them the opposite of what we have now.
Humanity started off on the wrong foot, thanks to the first rebel who tempted the woman.
This doesn't answer the question. That Adam's sin happened before his children were born, tells us nothing about what would have happened after they were born.

All we have ever known is sin and its consequences. All we have ever had to deal with in this life is suffering and death. Look in the Genesis account and see if death was ever to take place as a natural occurrence? We all die because of what Adam did.
If death was not a natural occurrence what purpose does the Tree of Life serve? This was a tree capable of bestowing life. Clearly that means, there was someone who needed it.

God providing his Messiah was to undo the damage Adam did to us. What is the purpose of Messiah's Kingdom to Jews?
The purpose of the Messiah's reign is to provide a framework for us in which we can pursue attachment to G-d without mundane concerns. The Messiah doesn't undo any damage. He's only a man, he can do nothing on his own.

"IF" is a condition. Your scripture says "IF". Your approach to translation is very loose IMO.
No, I mean the other part of the condition. If X happens, THAN Y will occur. There is no than.

The love of a father necessitates discipline when necessary. Under God's law, children who disrespected or called down evil upon their parents were to be put to death.....if Israel disrespected their Father, by disobeying his commandments, what penalty did they expect? How was the love of a father expressed in that case? (Leviticus 20:9) How is it expressed now?
And I agree to all of that. That's been my argument this entire time. When we don't obey G-d, we cause G-d's destruction to fall on us. But not more than that. The covenant always remains so long as the Jewish people do.

The covenant is eternal but according to scripture, “All the nations” will be blessed through Abraham's seed. God told this to Abraham the Hebrew before the Jewish nation had even come into existence. So, while God later dealt with the Jews exclusively for a time, the real, ultimate blessing is for people of all nations.
This is you interpolating your own explanation of what the blessing is that would occur through Abraham. The passage does not say this, nor is there any reason to assume this.

The Jews were merely the ones who would physically produce the Messiah. We have every reason to believe that God was so frustrated with Israel's incorrigible mindset that he actually changed the definition of what it meant to be "Jewish"
We have no such reason, because there is no source that makes this claim.

in order to fulfill his covenant with those who were "not his people" but became his people. (Hosea 2:23)
That's just a play on words from early in the chapter describing the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah.

I believe that the new covenant is already in force with 'spiritual' Israel because literal Israel simply counted on being Abraham's children....but they never did emulate his faith and obedience, and God's patience has limits.

This is what I believe. I know you will never agree, but I find your arguments very shallow....sorry.
You believe my arguments are shallow, because you want to believe in the NT. Once you remove the NT from the picture, it becomes pretty clear that my arguments are solid and I think that's why you find in general that people who are neither Christians nor Jews tend to believe that Jews have it right when it comes to the Tanach.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I think it is wonderful that we are able to have a rational discussion about this. Most of the time, debates about the Holy Land degrade into ad hominem attacks and ridiculous statements. Thank you for being a reasonable person, even if we are on slightly different sides.

Personally, I would like to see the Israeli people change their ways by embracing the stranger (Palestinian) and treat them as one of their own, just as the Lord instructed them to do. I truly believe this “example” would create a wave of peace across the middle east.
Palestinians are not Jews; they are not "one of our own." However, the Torah is quite clear about not abusing the stranger.

"And a stranger shalt thou not wrong, neither shalt thou oppress him; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt." Exodus 22:21 JPS Tanakh

Even those Palestinians who are active enemies of Israel must by law be treated fairly.

"If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his [donkey]going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again."
Exodus 23:4

The settlers break other laws of the Torah, such as the cutting down of trees of one's enemies.

In general, I am outraged at the behavior of the Settlers, both as a Jew and as a human being. I don't know how they can justify their behavior as observant Jews. There is no religious justification for cheating Gentiles and abusing them. I am also shocked by the behavior of the IDF in supporting them. I am for a two state solution, and the behavior in the West Bank just runs against this. It needs to stop immediately.

Of course, that does not legitimize the Palestinian cause, which is the irradication of Israel.

Change the name of their country from “Israel” to “Palestine”.
Are you talking about the state of Israel proper, or the occupied territory of the West Bank? It is absurd of course to talk about renaming Israel "Palestine," since it isn't. As for the West Bank, when it becomes an independent state, the Palestinians can name it whatever they please. However, that's not going to happen until they recognize Israel as a Jewish State.

An nation state of Palestine has NEVER existed. The only "Palestine" that has ever existed has been a territory that has been occupied by a succession of different empires, up til the present occupation by Israel, so it is no different now than it has ever been. It is only complaining now, because the occupier is JEWISH, and they are anti-Semitic. They had no problems, for example, being occupied and second class citizens under the Ottoman Empire, the British, and Jordan.

The ONLY nation state that has EVER existed in that region has been Jewish, known variously as Israel and Judea. When Rome won its war with the Jews, it tried to obliterate all memory of Judea by renaming it Palestine (after the Philistines who lived nearby, no relationship to the Arabs who live there now).

  • So there is a historical claim by Jews to the land.
  • Even while in diaspora, there was a constant Jewish presence living in the Holy Land
  • Even while in diaspora, Jews never gave up claim to the Holy Land, remembering it yearly during Passover.
  • The world recognized the need for a Jewish state after the Holocaust, a homeland for the Jews, a place where we could find refuge from the world's anti-Semitism.
  • The world already has many Muslim, Christian, Buddist, and Secular States. It can live with one tiny Jewish state.
 
Last edited:

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The ONLY nation state that has EVER existed in that region has been Jewish, known variously as Israel and Judea.

Historically speaking Judea was a part of Palestine; not the other way around.

And to top this off, Judea occupied mountainous southern part of the region of Palestine.
which is not the land now falsely claimed today.
Judea - Wikipedia

Palestine of which Judea "was a part of" existed before the existence of a land called Judea & Palestine will reclaim its rightful place on the map of nations engulfing the land of Israel as it stands today.
Palestine - Wikipedia


An this event you will see take place in your life time.

in my view of things
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Historically speaking Judea was a part of Palestine; not the other way around.

And to top this off, Judea occupied mountainous southern part of the region of Palestine.
which is not the land now falsely claimed today.
Judea - Wikipedia

Palestine of which Judea "was a part of" existed before the existence of a land called Judea & Palestine will reclaim its rightful place on the map of nations engulfing the land of Israel as it stands today.
Palestine - Wikipedia


An this event you will see take place in your life time.

in my view of things
Sorry, but the word Palestine did not yet exist at that time. Wikipedia article on Judea never says that Judea was part of Palestine, your quotes not withstanding.

The Wikipedia article on Palestine states that the earliest Palestine which existed was a Roman province when came into being in 135 CE, which is AFTER Judea.

Like I said.

It never lists a nation of Palestine. (The closest it comes is the pseudo state of Palestine which the UN halfway recogtnizes today but which most nations in the world do not recognize, since it has no borders.)

Like I said.

It is obvious that you believe in the Palestinian cause. I would also like to see a Palestinian state alongside the Jewish state of Israel. I would like the atrocities on both sides to stop and for there to be peace. The FIRST step in this is the Palestinian recognition of Israel's right to exist. Even other Arab nations have lost patience with the Palestinians in this matter. The Saudis aren't going to let them BS on this matter any longer.
 
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james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I am not going to get into a debate on the existence of Palestine but it was referred to in 1150 BC.

Further information: Time periods in the Palestine region and Names of the Levant § Philistia and Palestine

The term "Peleset" (transliterated from hieroglyphs as P-r-s-t) is found in five inscriptions referring to a neighboring people or land starting from circa 1150 BC during the Twentieth Dynasty of Egypt.

Timeline of the name "Palestine" - Wikipedia

Setting aside the above, all the Jews left wherever they were and moved to Egypt and there they told the Pharaoh that they were Shepard’s who lived on the open plains with no “home” of their own until they moved to Egypt. While in Egypt a Jew became the prime leader of all peoples in Egypt and remained in Egypt until Moses murders a man in the street. And with this they “all” flee into the desert to avoid punishment for this wanton murder.

(Gen 41:39 KJV) And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, Forasmuch as God hath showed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art:

(Gen 41:40 KJV) Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.

(Gen 41:42 KJV) And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck;

(Gen 41:44 KJV) And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I am Pharaoh, and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.

Gen 41:46 KJV) And Joseph was thirty years old when he stood before Pharaoh King of Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went throughout all the land of Egypt.

Joseph who is now the de facto ruler over all of Egypt; saves the Israelite's who are experiencing a great famine and moves them to Egypt and gives them power over all the agriculture lands. Clearly they were not slaves as some would have believed.

(Gen 42:5 KJV) And the sons of Israel came to buy corn among those that came: for the famine was in the land of Canaan.

(Gen 42:25 KJV) Then Joseph commanded to fill their sacks with corn, and to restore every man's money into his sack, and to give them provision for the way:

(Gen 45:20 KJV) Also regard not your stuff; for the good of all the land of Egypt is yours.

See above, they abandon the land of Canaan and move to Egypt

(Gen 45:21 KJV) And the children of Israel did so: and Joseph gave them wagons, according to the commandment of Pharaoh, and gave them provision for the way.

(Gen 47:1 KJV) Then Joseph came and told Pharaoh, and said, My father [ISRAEL] and my brethren, and their flocks, and their herds, and all that they have, are come out of the land of Canaan; and, behold, they are in the land of Goshen.

(Gen 47:3 KJV) And Pharaoh said unto his brethren, What is your occupation? And they said unto Pharaoh, Thy servants are shepherds, both we, and also our fathers.

(Gen 47:4 KJV) They said moreover unto Pharaoh, For to sojourn in the land are we come; for thy servants have no pasture for their flocks; for the famine is sore in the land of Canaan: now therefore, we pray thee, let thy servants dwell in the land of Goshen.

(Gen 47:5 KJV) And Pharaoh spake unto Joseph, saying, Thy father [ISRAEL] and thy brethren are come unto thee:

(Gen 47:6 KJV) The land of Egypt is before thee; in the best of the land make thy father and brethren to dwell; in the land of Goshen let them dwell: and if thou knowest any men of activity among them, then make them rulers over my cattle.

(Gen 47:11 KJV) And Joseph placed his father [ISRAEL] and his brethren, and gave them a possession in the land of Egypt, in the best of the land, in the land of Rameses, as Pharaoh had commanded.

There they remained until Moses murders a man in the street
the truth will set you free :)-
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It is obvious that you believe in the Palestinian cause. I would also like to see a Palestinian state alongside the Jewish state of Israel. I would like the atrocities on both sides to stop and for there to be peace. The FIRST step in this is the Palestinian recognition of Israel's right to exist. Even other Arab nations have lost patience with the Palestinians in this matter. The Saudis aren't going to let them BS on this matter any longer.

Finally, you and I are one on this one; except for the right of the state of Israel to exist. This they have to earn; which they have not !!!!
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I am not going to get into a debate on the existence of Palestine but it was referred to in 1150 BC.

Further information: Time periods in the Palestine region and Names of the Levant § Philistia and Palestine

The term "Peleset" (transliterated from hieroglyphs as P-r-s-t) is found in five inscriptions referring to a neighboring people or land starting from circa 1150 BC during the Twentieth Dynasty of Egypt.

Timeline of the name "Palestine" - Wikipedia

Setting aside the above, all the Jews left wherever they were and moved to Egypt and there they told the Pharaoh that they were Shepard’s who lived on the open plains with no “home” of their own until they moved to Egypt. While in Egypt a Jew became the prime leader of all peoples in Egypt and remained in Egypt until Moses murders a man in the street. And with this they “all” flee into the desert to avoid punishment for this wanton murder.

(Gen 41:39 KJV) And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, Forasmuch as God hath showed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art:

(Gen 41:40 KJV) Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.

(Gen 41:42 KJV) And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck;

(Gen 41:44 KJV) And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I am Pharaoh, and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.

Gen 41:46 KJV) And Joseph was thirty years old when he stood before Pharaoh King of Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went throughout all the land of Egypt.

Joseph who is now the de facto ruler over all of Egypt; saves the Israelite's who are experiencing a great famine and moves them to Egypt and gives them power over all the agriculture lands. Clearly they were not slaves as some would have believed.

(Gen 42:5 KJV) And the sons of Israel came to buy corn among those that came: for the famine was in the land of Canaan.

(Gen 42:25 KJV) Then Joseph commanded to fill their sacks with corn, and to restore every man's money into his sack, and to give them provision for the way:

(Gen 45:20 KJV) Also regard not your stuff; for the good of all the land of Egypt is yours.

See above, they abandon the land of Canaan and move to Egypt

(Gen 45:21 KJV) And the children of Israel did so: and Joseph gave them wagons, according to the commandment of Pharaoh, and gave them provision for the way.

(Gen 47:1 KJV) Then Joseph came and told Pharaoh, and said, My father [ISRAEL] and my brethren, and their flocks, and their herds, and all that they have, are come out of the land of Canaan; and, behold, they are in the land of Goshen.

(Gen 47:3 KJV) And Pharaoh said unto his brethren, What is your occupation? And they said unto Pharaoh, Thy servants are shepherds, both we, and also our fathers.

(Gen 47:4 KJV) They said moreover unto Pharaoh, For to sojourn in the land are we come; for thy servants have no pasture for their flocks; for the famine is sore in the land of Canaan: now therefore, we pray thee, let thy servants dwell in the land of Goshen.

(Gen 47:5 KJV) And Pharaoh spake unto Joseph, saying, Thy father [ISRAEL] and thy brethren are come unto thee:

(Gen 47:6 KJV) The land of Egypt is before thee; in the best of the land make thy father and brethren to dwell; in the land of Goshen let them dwell: and if thou knowest any men of activity among them, then make them rulers over my cattle.

(Gen 47:11 KJV) And Joseph placed his father [ISRAEL] and his brethren, and gave them a possession in the land of Egypt, in the best of the land, in the land of Rameses, as Pharaoh had commanded.

There they remained until Moses murders a man in the street
the truth will set you free :)-
1. Palestine is NOT referred to in 1150 BC. I think you must be confusing Palestine with Philistia, which are two totally different things. Not only is Philistia a completely different animal from Palestine, but the territory it once existed on is where Gaza is today, not Israel. Israel is not interested in Gaza. Israel closed down its settlements and withdrew from Gaza. Israel keeps hoping someone else (Jordon, Egypt, the PA) to take over Gaza's problems, because quite honestly Gaza is nothing but a pain in Israel's butt. So let's not pretend that Philistia is Palestine or that it has anything to do with today's troubles in the Holy Land.

2. Canaan is is like Palestine -- it is not a country, it is a territory.

3. Israel and his family moved temporarily from Canaan to Egypt because of a famine. Later, they were prevented from returning to Canaan by the Egyptians, who enslaved them. That is, until God intervened and divinely placed them back into the Promised Land which he had given them via his covenant with Abraham through Isaac and Jacob.

4. The covenant of the Promised Land given to Abraham is eternal. We can be missing for thousands of years and in God's eyes, it still belongs to us and He can restore us to that land any time he feels like it.

5. Even if there had not been the covenant, all the secular arguments that I gave you before are plenty enough for Jews to claim the Holy Lands as our homeland. It has been our homeland since Abraham, and always will be our homeland. Go back and read that post of mine again.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Finally, you and I are one on this one; except for the right of the state of Israel to exist. This they have to earn; which they have not !!!!
Balogne. Has any other country in the world "earned" the right to exist? Rather, there is a "rational" for the existence of Israel, which I have given you. It is way more than enough. But "earn the right??????" Oh please. Talk about double standard. Let's just make Israel follow rules that no one else has to follow -- that sir, is a form of anti-Semitism. Fight the temptation! If you held BOTH Israel and a future Palestinian state to the SAME standard, would a people who have used terrorism to achieve their objective have "earned the right" to a State? No. So let's not invent silly rules the cut off both heads.
 

KingSolomon

Member
Do you ever do anything on here except bash Jewish people?

King Solomon said on
October 9 at 2:35 PM · on Quora
Why are Jews hated across the world?
Answered on Quora

Jews were hated long before Christianity arose, particularly by the Greeks and peoples they Hellenized. Jews were seen as a nation that not only saw themselves as superior to other peoples but who refused to engage with them in the common Greco-Roman society, due to their religious restrictions. As I say, antipathy to Jews already existed among Greeks and Hellenized. The person known as St Paul used this antipathy to create a religion using Jewish language and Jewish religious symbolism whereby he would draw together Jews and Gentiles into a new sect that would eliminate cultural and religious differences among them. This meant that Jewishness would disappear if Jews accepted his religion. As time passed and few Jews responded to him, Paul became increasingly angry and you can see this anger in his letters to his churches. Additionally, James, the brother of the REAL Jesus, headed a community of radically militant Jews which continuously verbally attacked Paul and when given the opportunity, physically attacked him. Paul’s anti Jewishness and his disparagement of the TORAH, just stimulated more and more antipathy to him and his cult. Once Jews lost political power in 70CE, the community of James withdrew into themselves, giving free reign for Paul’s religion to spread and gain power under the aegis of the Roman Empire. Once Christianity became the Roman Empire, they vented their anger against all opponents, including Jews. Since Jews continued to refuse to accept Christianity, the triumphal Church began a system of delegitimizing Jews as a people and Judaism as a religion. The Church [ both Roman and Byzantine] urged the adherents to hate and attack Jews, using all and any outrageous lies and stereotypes to force Jews to convert or assimilate or leave Christian lands.

By the Middle Ages, Christian leaders had succeeded in turning the Jewish People into devils in the minds of ignorant people. Whenever nations or populations experienced disappointments or calamities, they had a ready scapegoat on whom to unleash their pent-up hatred. After all, with the exception of gypsies, Jews were the only minority in Christendom.

On the other side, in the early 7th century, Mohamud found Judaism attractive and said that he would convert and spread Judaism to all Arabia if only Jews would accept him as the greatest prophet. Jews naturally thought him insane or provocative so they rejected him. When Mohamud succeeded in starting his own religion and conquering Arabia and then later, the whole Middle East, he took out his resentment on ALL Jews, not just those of Arabia. Jews became second-class citizens as did all others who were not Muslims. For the first nearly 1500 years of the existence of Islam, Jews and Muslims maintained a love-hate relationship. But that only lasted so long as Muslims had the upper hand in the relationship. But when Jews began asserting themselves as Zionists, many Muslims felt frightened. Their fear turned to hatred as Jews succeeded in gaining political power again after 2000 years.

Much like the case of Christians, Muslims spread their fear and hatred of Jews all over the world.

What’s interesting is that although both of these religious cultures represent world Empires, both have always feared Judaism and Jews as dangerous competitors, taking away the allegiance of their adherents.

Today, Jew-hatred has become a mental illness, virtually impervious to treatment. It expresses itself today as antiZionism. The State of Israel has become the world Jew. What intensifies the fear and hatred is that Israel now possesses the power over other nations that ignorant Christians and Muslims always mistakenly believed that Jews had.

But many people, including some antisemites, admire Israel due to various uncomplimentary reasons. And some because they see Israel as an island of Western enlightenment surrounded by a sea of oriental barbarism.
 

KingSolomon

Member
1. Palestine is NOT referred to in 1150 BC. I think you must be confusing Palestine with Philistia, which are two totally different things. Not only is Philistia a completely different animal from Palestine, but the territory it once existed on is where Gaza is today, not Israel.

Basically, your facts are correct. However, the name Palestine was given to the Land of Israel by the Romans for several reasons. The Romans found the people of the Land divided by ethnos and religion and politics, and they were not interested in catering to the Jews there although Jews constituted the popular majority of inhabitants. It was clearly a Jewish Land that had attracted other peoples to migrate to. It's possible that the Romans called their Jewish province Palestine as some kind of an insult to the Jewish inhabitants. It's possible but not definite. They chose the name Palestine to mean the land of the Philistines, the old enemy of the Israelites. By the time that Rome occupied Israel, the Philistines had long disappeared, absorbed and assimilated into the nation of Israel.
But the nonJewish inhabitants of Israel today claim to be descended from the Canaanites, not the Philistines. It's just that the Roman name Palestine was kept in use by the Byzantines, the Arabs, the Turks, and the British who called the nonJews in their mandate, Palestinians.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
King Solomon said on
October 9 at 2:35 PM · on Quora
Why are Jews hated across the world?
Answered on Quora

Jews were hated long before Christianity arose, particularly by the Greeks and peoples they Hellenized. Jews were seen as a nation that not only saw themselves as superior to other peoples but who refused to engage with them in the common Greco-Roman society, due to their religious restrictions. As I say, antipathy to Jews already existed among Greeks and Hellenized. The person known as St Paul used this antipathy to create a religion using Jewish language and Jewish religious symbolism whereby he would draw together Jews and Gentiles into a new sect that would eliminate cultural and religious differences among them. This meant that Jewishness would disappear if Jews accepted his religion. As time passed and few Jews responded to him, Paul became increasingly angry and you can see this anger in his letters to his churches. Additionally, James, the brother of the REAL Jesus, headed a community of radically militant Jews which continuously verbally attacked Paul and when given the opportunity, physically attacked him. Paul’s anti Jewishness and his disparagement of the TORAH, just stimulated more and more antipathy to him and his cult. Once Jews lost political power in 70CE, the community of James withdrew into themselves, giving free reign for Paul’s religion to spread and gain power under the aegis of the Roman Empire. Once Christianity became the Roman Empire, they vented their anger against all opponents, including Jews. Since Jews continued to refuse to accept Christianity, the triumphal Church began a system of delegitimizing Jews as a people and Judaism as a religion. The Church [ both Roman and Byzantine] urged the adherents to hate and attack Jews, using all and any outrageous lies and stereotypes to force Jews to convert or assimilate or leave Christian lands.

By the Middle Ages, Christian leaders had succeeded in turning the Jewish People into devils in the minds of ignorant people. Whenever nations or populations experienced disappointments or calamities, they had a ready scapegoat on whom to unleash their pent-up hatred. After all, with the exception of gypsies, Jews were the only minority in Christendom.

On the other side, in the early 7th century, Mohamud found Judaism attractive and said that he would convert and spread Judaism to all Arabia if only Jews would accept him as the greatest prophet. Jews naturally thought him insane or provocative so they rejected him. When Mohamud succeeded in starting his own religion and conquering Arabia and then later, the whole Middle East, he took out his resentment on ALL Jews, not just those of Arabia. Jews became second-class citizens as did all others who were not Muslims. For the first nearly 1500 years of the existence of Islam, Jews and Muslims maintained a love-hate relationship. But that only lasted so long as Muslims had the upper hand in the relationship. But when Jews began asserting themselves as Zionists, many Muslims felt frightened. Their fear turned to hatred as Jews succeeded in gaining political power again after 2000 years.

Much like the case of Christians, Muslims spread their fear and hatred of Jews all over the world.

What’s interesting is that although both of these religious cultures represent world Empires, both have always feared Judaism and Jews as dangerous competitors, taking away the allegiance of their adherents.

Today, Jew-hatred has become a mental illness, virtually impervious to treatment. It expresses itself today as antiZionism. The State of Israel has become the world Jew. What intensifies the fear and hatred is that Israel now possesses the power over other nations that ignorant Christians and Muslims always mistakenly believed that Jews had.

But many people, including some antisemites, admire Israel due to various uncomplimentary reasons. And some because they see Israel as an island of Western enlightenment surrounded by a sea of oriental barbarism.

So what do you believe exactly? What are you?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Basically, your facts are correct. However, the name Palestine was given to the Land of Israel by the Romans for several reasons. The Romans found the people of the Land divided by ethnos and religion and politics, and they were not interested in catering to the Jews there although Jews constituted the popular majority of inhabitants. It was clearly a Jewish Land that had attracted other peoples to migrate to. It's possible that the Romans called their Jewish province Palestine as some kind of an insult to the Jewish inhabitants. It's possible but not definite. They chose the name Palestine to mean the land of the Philistines, the old enemy of the Israelites. By the time that Rome occupied Israel, the Philistines had long disappeared, absorbed and assimilated into the nation of Israel.
But the nonJewish inhabitants of Israel today claim to be descended from the Canaanites, not the Philistines. It's just that the Roman name Palestine was kept in use by the Byzantines, the Arabs, the Turks, and the British who called the nonJews in their mandate, Palestinians.
The truth is, it is the Lebanese who are genetic descendents of the Phoenicians/Canaanites. Not the Palestinians. The Palestinians are simply Arabs, mostly the grandkids of immigrants from Jordon and Egypt. Yassir Arafat was born in Cairo. TRUE Palestianians (those whose families have lived in the land for a thousand years) are actually quite rare and most of them were actually Jewish families that converted to Islam during the Islamic conquests.
 

KingSolomon

Member
So what do you believe exactly? What are you?

I believe that all things may be possible but so far we only have evidence for some things.
I believe what makes sense to me and you believe things that make sense to you.
What I am is hard to define exactly in this point of my evolution. I am a questioner.
 

KingSolomon

Member
The truth is, it is the Lebanese who are genetic descendents of the Phoenicians/Canaanites. Not the Palestinians. The Palestinians are simply Arabs, mostly the grandkids of immigrants from Jordon and Egypt. Yassir Arafat was born in Cairo. TRUE Palestianians (those whose families have lived in the land for a thousand years) are actually quite rare and most of them were actually Jewish families that converted to Islam during the Islamic conquests.

Actually correct. Lebanese Christians are descended from Phoenicians. Muslim Lebanese are descended from who knows whom. Real Palestinians are descended from Jews forcibly converted to Islam, I think.
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But many people, including some antisemites, admire Israel due to various uncomplimentary reasons. And some because they see Israel as an island of Western enlightenment surrounded by a sea of oriental barbarism.

The current state of Israel is the true remaining barbaric state. Its leaders have assassinated Europens leaders, thrown bombs into school buses and their IDF sharpshooters have murdered score of Palestinian children.

No one, no not one admires Israel.

For their actions speak louder than words, colored in red with the blood they have spilled across the land.

Ezekiel
25 And you, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,

26 Thus says the Lord GOD; Remove the turban, and take off the crown: this shall not remain the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.

27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he comes whose right it is; and I will give it to him.

31 And I will pour out my indignation upon you, I will blow against you in the fire of my wrath, and deliver you into the hand of brutal men, skilful to destroy.

32 You shall be for fuel to the fire; your blood shall be in the midst of the land; you shall be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.

And so it will be done :)-
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
God Chose Them but For What Purpose?

(Mal 3:5 KJV) And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

(Jer 14:8 KJV) O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?

(Ezek 14:7 KJV) For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:

(Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

(Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Deu 24:19 KJV) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

(Deu 24:20 KJV)

(Deu 24:21 KJV) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow

(Jer 7:6 KJV) If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

(Jer 22:3 KJV) Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

(Ezek 22:7 KJV) In thee have they set light by father and mother: in the midst of thee have they dealt by oppression with the stranger: in thee have they vexed the fatherless and the widow.

(Zec 7:10 KJV) And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

(Exo 22:21 KJV) Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Exo 23:9 KJV) Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

(Lev 25:35 KJV) And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

This is the one I like the most----

(Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

The above was their “purpose”; their purpose was to set an example

Are they/have they obeyed the Lord’s commands; what example have they given--?

Just asking, no animosity intended or implied :)-
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The current state of Israel is the true remaining barbaric state. Its leaders have assassinated Europens leaders, thrown bombs into school buses and their IDF sharpshooters have murdered score of Palestinian children.
All ridiculous and completely false claims.

James, we've chatted for quote some time now, and I'm convinced that you have been brainwashed by the hilarious propaganda of the Arab world. What you say is NOT typical of the European Left, and I do NOT believe your name is actually James Dixon. I have been very open about saying I am a Jew and a proud Zionist. I think if you had a good sense of self worth, you would be more open about who you really are. Give it a try!
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Ezekiel
25 And you, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,
There were good kings of Israel and bad kings of Israel.

Today there are good Israelis and bad Israelis, good Jews and bad Jews, good Palestinians and bad Palestinians, good human beings and bad human beings.
 
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