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Suffer, You Little *&*^$%s

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I don’t agree that Adam and Eve became like God. After all, it was the Father of Lies who told them that, not someone honest.
Well, in Genesis 3:22, God himself says, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." So evidently, they did become like God in one respect. That doesn't mean that they were like God in every way, of course. Obviously, that wasn't the case. But they had gained one godly attribute, and that was the ability to discern good from evil.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The creation stories are mythic. “Myth” is a literary genre.

Who says Genesis is presented as "myth" or as "literary genre"? Not Jesus. Not Moses....How does anyone make that judgment?

I didn’t say it’s a “fairy story.” I said it is mythic. There’s a marked difference that only one who appreciates literary scholarship can appreciate.

Do you hear yourself?....."that only one who appreciates literary scholarship can appreciate".....and that would be you of course.
Sorry but that just made me laugh out loud...
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You agreed with Mr Lowery that they would "be like God" if they ate the fruit......that was the devil's lie. Who do you think masqueraded as the serpent?

It’s the best scholarship available.

Hmmmm. shame about that. Didn't Jesus say that "if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit"? I think you and Mr Lowery might need a ladder, but mine won't reach down that far.
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Do you also turn away from doctors who work in Catholic hospitals?

If a doctor has harmed patients due to his poor medical knowledge and practice, I wouldn't care what hospital he attended....I'd rather see a reliable vet.

As if your assessment means anything.

It only matters if it means something to God. We will all see in due time. I am very patient. :D

Punishment isn’t really the issue. consequences are the issue. There are always consequences for our actions. The stories are etiological.

I see no evidence that these Bible "stories" (I prefer to call them accounts) are in any way interpreted correctly by Mr Lowery or yourself. I am reminded of the apostle Paul's warning that ..."wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled." The rot started even before the apostles passed away.....but once they were gone, the "church" spiraled into apostasy just as Jesus foretold. Humans went off on all sorts of tangents to accommodate their own "weedy" ideas about God and his Christ...."misleading and being misled". Look at Christendom today.....what a shemozzle!!! You think the Christ exists divided? I know he doesn't. He will make known soon enough who is teaching the truth and who isn't. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Nope. According to Dr. Lowery, Satan is not in the stories. Only you promulgate that rubbish.

So the apostle John is a liar too now? Satan is most definitely in OT accounts. What about Job? The "Adversary" is identified by Christendom's own scholars as "satan" (which means "opposer" or "enemy".) "Satan" and "Devil" are not his personal names but are titles indicating his character. In Greek he is called "diabolos" meaning a "false accuser" or "slanderer". The Bible makes no sense if the devil is not a real entity. He doesn't work as a "myth" because Jesus would have to be one too. Was he?

Revelation 12:7-9...."And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him."

How many others will you accuse of not telling the truth because you (and others like Mr Lowery) have other ideas? Here is the clear identification of satan as the 'original serpent'. Who was it that tempted Jesus? A figment of his imagination?

Yes, because we have self-determination and are aware of morality.

And having "self-determination" has led us where? If we ever had a sense of morality, where did it come from? Where has our morality gone today? Because of evolution, humans think that they are just animals, and that justifies acting like them....no moral sense whatsoever.

Sorry if you can’t acknowledge that we’re better off in that regard than, say, paramecia.

Good grief! You don't think we were created for a life better than paramecia? Since we alone are created in God's image, looking at the way humans behave in this "age of reason", you would hardly believe that they were capable of morality at all. They may as well BE paramecia. :rolleyes:
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Who says Genesis is presented as "myth" or as "literary genre"? Not Jesus. Not Moses....How does anyone make that judgment?
Jesus was not a literary scholar. Moses was likely not an historical figure. People make these judgments by studying literature. It helps when the creation stories are taken from earlier, mythic stories about Sumerian gods...

Do you hear yourself?....."that only one who appreciates literary scholarship can appreciate".....and that would be you of course.
Sorry but that just made me laugh out loud
Are you a literary scholar?


Thought not.

You agreed with Mr Lowery that they would "be like God" if they ate the fruit......that was the devil's lie. Who do you think masqueraded as the serpent
Wisdom. Wisdom is symbolized by the serpent. Which you’d know if you knew the story’s origins.
shame about that.
Yes... for you it is.

I think you and Mr Lowery might need a ladder, but mine won't reach down that far
No one stands so tall as one who stoops to help the fallen.


Hi there, Shorty...
If a doctor has harmed patients due to his poor medical knowledge and practice, I wouldn't care what hospital he attended....I'd rather see a reliable vet
Except the doctor has received the highest accolades from his peers, the review boards and licensing entities, and teaches at the best medical colleges. Who’s word would you rather take? Theirs, or that of the disgruntled patient who refused to take her or his meds?
It only matters if it means something to God
Human beings don’t matter. I’ll remember you said that next time I read about how Jesus wept over Jerusalem.
I see no evidence that these Bible "stories" (I prefer to call them accounts) are in any way interpreted correctly by Mr Lowery or yourself
...as if your assessment carries any weight in that regard.

Satan is most definitely in OT accounts
I didn’t say “OT.” I said the creation myths. You’re not reading me thoroughly, honestly and correctly any more than you’re reading the texts thoroughly, honestly and correctly.
Revelation 12:7-9
Funny... I didn’t know Revelation was included in the creation myths. I incorrectly assumed it appeared at the other end of the Bible...

How many others will you accuse of not telling the truth because you (and others like Mr Lowery) have other ideas? Here is the clear identification of satan as the 'original serpent
As many as are not telling the truth, I suppose.

And having "self-determination" has led us where?
To the moon, to quantum physics, to self-sacrificial love for strangers, to art...
Since we alone are created in God's image
Part of that image is the development of moral awareness and self-determination.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The problem isn't they say not-existing.

The problem you have? Is that you cannot prove *any* of the bible characters were ever real.

Not a single major character, in fact. That is your claim. One you cannot prove.

In fact, one for which you have no evidence of any kind...
Hmmmmm.... King David has already been proven.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Cute. Real cute.
:oops: Perhaps you misunderstood. I was only trying to say that there are some people on this forum (you included) that I find myself strongly disagreeing with about certain beliefs, but whom I still have a lot of respect for.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
We don't worship Allah as described in the Koran. We worship the God of love.

Yet AGAIN you go down a track that nobody has mentioned.

And AGAIN, your statements earlier show:

Your god is NOT all-powerful
Your god is NOT all-knowing
Your god is NOT everywhere.

Thus, your god isn't very godly.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
Except your god isn't loving, for having created hell. Infinite torture is the exact opposite of loving, actually.

Torture is pretty evil. And hateful too.

Well, God didn't create hell. Think of it like a garbage can - You throw the trash there and then just forget about it.

...The devil is like the garbage man, he comes and collects the trash once a week. From there, It's nothing nice.

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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Either way, man distanced himself.



I think the old testament has a lot of wisdom. Also, a lot of assumptions, and misunderstood attempts.

Surely you don't think the Catholics are Fundamentalists.

It depends.

Do you really believe that a piece of wafer can literally turn into a piece of body of a 2000 years old god if some male (strong requirement) dressed funny whispers some latin words on it?

Do you also believe that brastocysts, or a few duplicating cells with human DNA (and therefore not so easily distinguishable from the ones of a amoeba) have an immortal soul?

Ciao

- viole
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
no. Not even. Nice attempt to dodge, though.

I think you have done us a favor. A great example of "I don't care what you say, I'm not going to believe"... a flat-earth syndrome.

A cursory attempt would cause you to believe otherwise.

The Tel Dan Inscription: The First Historical Evidence of King David from the Bible - Biblical Archaeology Society

Evidence of Canaanite Jewish Rituals in Reign of King David

Discovery of official clay seals support existence of biblical kings David and Solomon, archaeologists say

There is more, of course, but for those who don't want to believe, no effort will be given.

Not to mention the Book of Kings.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
It depends.

Do you really believe that a piece of wafer can literally turn into a piece of body of a 2000 years old god if some male (strong requirement) dressed funny whispers some latin words on it?

Do you also believe that brastocysts, or a few duplicating cells with human DNA (and therefore not so easily distinguishable from the ones of a amoeba) have an immortal soul?

Ciao

- viole

Well, none of that makes one a "fundamentalist". By definition, a Fundamentalist is one who: "believes in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture in a religion."
https://www.google.com/search?ie=UT...nt-us&source=android-browser&q=fundamentalist

...
What you have described above, are the attributes of a "Traditionalist"

One other type would be the "Mystic"
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Well, none of that makes one a "fundamentalist". By definition, a Fundamentalist is one who: "believes in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture in a religion."
https://www.google.com/search?ie=UT...nt-us&source=android-browser&q=fundamentalist

...
What you have described above, are the attributes of a "Traditionalist"

One other type would be the "Mystic"

Ok, are you a traditioanalist, then? Do you really believe what I asked?

I am just curious. I am also curious to understand how can people belong to the same organization if they differ so much about fundamental parts of their belief.

Ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Well, in Genesis 3:22, God himself says, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." So evidently, they did become like God in one respect. That doesn't mean that they were like God in every way, of course. Obviously, that wasn't the case. But they had gained one godly attribute, and that was the ability to discern good from evil.

And got punished because of that. Badly. Except the serpent, of course. It got punished to crawl on its belly. It probably did not believe its luck. Is the one that messed up, and it was condamned to do what it was doing anyway. I wonder if Satan is still crawling on its belly, today.

Apparently, God preferred moral idiots, despite all claims of free will and God wanting us to be not like robots. That is what we get from the narrative. Being able to understand good and evil is, well, evil.

As usual, whoever wrote that, did not pay attention to logical coherence, I am afraid.

Ciao

- viole

Ciao

- viole
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Except your god isn't loving, for having created hell. Infinite torture is the exact opposite of loving, actually.

Torture is pretty evil. And hateful too.
Actually, Hell was created for Satan (the Devil).

We create prisons and it isn't because of a lack of love.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
Ok, are you a traditioanalist, then? Do you really believe what I asked?

I am just curious. I am also curious to understand how can people belong to the same organization if they differ so much about fundamental parts of their belief.

Ciao

- viole

Yes. I believe in the supernatural.

Also, I'm not sure what organization you're talking about.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
:oops: Perhaps you misunderstood. I was only trying to say that there are some people on this forum (you included) that I find myself strongly disagreeing with about certain beliefs, but whom I still have a lot of respect for.
I know. I was being facetious. ;)
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Yes. I believe in the supernatural.

Also, I'm not sure what organization you're talking about.

I did not ask if you believe in the supernatural.

I asked whether you believe that a wafer can literally turn into the body of a 2000 years old man god, or whether a few duplicating cells can have an immortal soul.

But if you do not want to answer, it is OK. I understand.

Ciao

- viole
 
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