Works vs Doctrine

Oeste · Oct 2, 2018

Milton Platt said:
Can you have faith and not salvation? Can you have salvation and not faith (dead faith)?

Both faith and salvation are works of the Spirit. Faith is the instrument (work) by which God brings us salvation. We receive faith because of God's grace and mercy. This is through the love of God (Ephesians 4-5) and not because we earned or deserved it (Ephesians 2:5, Ephesians 2:16). This work (faith) comes in the form of a gift. (Ephesians 2:8). Because faith and salvation are of God, it avoids the tendency for us to think more highly of ourselves than we should (Romans 12:3). In other words, it takes away the boast of ourselves (Romans 3:27) and confers all the glory of our salvation to the proper place: God.

How was this glory manifest? Through the cross:

While we were still weak, at the right moment, Christ died for ungodly people. It isn't often that someone will die for a righteous person, though maybe someone might dare to die for a good person. But God shows his love for us, because while we were still sinners Christ died for us. (Romans 5:6-8)

Our salvation comes in our faith and regeneration (God's acts, not our own) and for His glory. He has brought the unrighteous into righteousness through the blood of Christ.

Can you have salvation and not faith? I don't see how. If you have salvation you still have the faith (from God) that came with it which brought you to salvation. So your faith can be dead but your salvation... which is in Christ (2 Timothy 2:10)... is very much alive. The only way salvation dies for the regenerate believer is if Christ did not rise on the 3rd day.

But the question here is whether you can have faith without works which is different than one about faith without salvation. The answer to this is yes, you can have faith without works, as the thief on the cross showed. We are saved at the point of regeneration (Romans 5:5). The thief opened his heart to Christ, but he didn't have any works brought out in him through the Spirit.

The ideas expressed by our works based friends here is that faith is insufficient. You either have works to save yourself or God kills you, and while James states "faith without works is dead" he never stated those without works are killed. It is a stark contrast to faith based salvation, where those with faith are saved, and those without faith come to judgement (and possible punishment, rather than blasted into non-existence).

2ndpillar · Oct 3, 2018

Oeste said:
Both faith and salvation are works of the Spirit. Faith is the instrument (work) by which God brings us salvation. We receive faith because of God's grace and mercy. This is through the love of God (Ephesians 4-5) and not because we earned or deserved it (Ephesians 2:5, Ephesians 2:16). This work (faith) comes in the form of a gift. (Ephesians 2:8). Because faith and salvation are of God, it avoids the tendency for us to think more highly of ourselves than we should (Romans 12:3). In other words, it takes away the boast of ourselves (Romans 3:27) and confers all the glory of our salvation to the proper place: God.

Your foundation seems to be one built on Paul, versus heeding the testimony of Yeshua (Matthew 7:24), which would be a foundation of "sand" (Matthew 7:26). Yeshua's testimony was that if it doesn't produced "good fruit", it will be cut down and tossed into the fire.(Matthew 7:19)

Milton Platt · Oct 3, 2018

Oeste said:
Both faith and salvation are works of the Spirit. Faith is the instrument (work) by which God brings us salvation. We receive faith because of God's grace and mercy. This is through the love of God (Ephesians 4-5) and not because we earned or deserved it (Ephesians 2:5, Ephesians 2:16). This work (faith) comes in the form of a gift. (Ephesians 2:8). Because faith and salvation are of God, it avoids the tendency for us to think more highly of ourselves than we should (Romans 12:3). In other words, it takes away the boast of ourselves (Romans 3:27) and confers all the glory of our salvation to the proper place: God.

How was this glory manifest? Through the cross:

While we were still weak, at the right moment, Christ died for ungodly people. It isn't often that someone will die for a righteous person, though maybe someone might dare to die for a good person. But God shows his love for us, because while we were still sinners Christ died for us. (Romans 5:6-8)

Our salvation comes in our faith and regeneration (God's acts, not our own) and for His glory. He has brought the unrighteous into righteousness through the blood of Christ.

Can you have salvation and not faith? I don't see how. If you have salvation you still have the faith (from God) that came with it which brought you to salvation. So your faith can be dead but your salvation... which is in Christ (2 Timothy 2:10)... is very much alive. The only way salvation dies for the regenerate believer is if Christ did not rise on the 3rd day.

But the question here is whether you can have faith without works which is different than one about faith without salvation. The answer to this is yes, you can have faith without works, as the thief on the cross showed. We are saved at the point of regeneration (Romans 5:5). The thief opened his heart to Christ, but he didn't have any works brought out in him through the Spirit.

The ideas expressed by our works based friends here is that faith is insufficient. You either have works to save yourself or God kills you, and while James states "faith without works is dead" he never stated those without works are killed. It is a stark contrast to faith based salvation, where those with faith are saved, and those without faith come to judgement (and possible punishment, rather than blasted into non-existence).

It seems to me that if you cannot have salvation without faith (belief in the doctrines) and faith without works is dead(lifeless, without effect) then you cannot have salvation without works, unless you can be saved through dead faith. If that were so, it would not be necessary to make the distinction.
To be clear, I am an atheist, so I don't have a dog in the fight. But I I do find the topic interesting.
Thanks for the give and take.

Oeste · Oct 3, 2018

2ndpillar said:
Your foundation seems to be one built on Paul, versus heeding the testimony of Yeshua (Matthew 7:24), which would be a foundation of "sand" (Matthew 7:26).

Not sand, just simple, good exegesis. I see no scriptural conflicts between Paul and Yeshua.

2ndpillar said:
Yeshua's testimony was that if it doesn't produced "good fruit", it will be cut down and tossed into the fire.(Matthew 7:19)

Correct, but the trees are not individuals. They are individual reactions to our works. It is this work, not our lives, that stands or gets thrown into the fire.

Look at the parable of the sower. Is the sower sowing individual lives or the word of God? Do the seeds the sower throws represent himself? Do they represent some guy named Harry or some woman named Sue? They would have to in order for the tree to represent an individual.

So the trees do not represent individuals but does represent the reaction to our sowing of the word. We can sow the word or we can sow discord. There is no one to one correlations between a tree and an individual's life. We sow millions upon millions of trees (works) within our normal lifetime. Some of these works never get off the ground, some wither, and some grow into trees.

None of the seeds we throw or attempt to plant are forgotten by God. It is by every word we are held accountable:

" But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Matthew 12:36.

But again, these trees are not ourselves, but the words we spake. Some trees produce no fruit (that is, our work amounts to nothing) whilst others will produce a yield.

We are known by our fruits. Some words, spoken in haste, may fall on rocky soil, fail to grow or wither and die. However if we speak a word of hatred and that word grows, it will be a tree cut down. If we are seen cultivating that tree, we will be known by that tree, but we are not the tree itself. As we all know, it's possible for all of us to be known by more than one tree.

Any tree that survives refining is counted as an asset and we will be paid thirty, sixty, or a hundred fold depending on the tree.

The important thing is not to confuse salvation with works. The trees represent our works, not our salvation. Our salvation is Christ and not the tree. It is His work that saves and his work will never be cut down or thrown into the fire. Our own works may suffer a different fate.

Oeste · Oct 3, 2018

Milton Platt said:
It seems to me that if you cannot have salvation without faith (belief in the doctrines) and faith without works is dead(lifeless, without effect) then you cannot have salvation without works, unless you can be saved through dead faith. If that were so, it would not be necessary to make the distinction.

The work is there and there is a distinction.

Salvation is the work of Christ. The distinction is between our own works and those of Christ.

When James states "faith without works is dead" he is talking to believers. They've already shown faith because they listened to the spirit and allowed the Word to regenerate them. The faith they have that brought them to salvation is still there, but it is dead, lying dormant, if they do nothing with it. If they do nothing, they do not lose salvation because salvation has already been given them. What they do lose is reward, because the Spirit encourages us to sow and reap, and if we haven't sowed anything we can't possibly reap.

We can only reap what we sow and we cannot sow our own salvation. That was the work of Christ on the cross. Since we only reap what we ourselves sow, the work of salvation...which we did not sow ourselves...had to be gifted to us. This gift is nothing that we ourselves earned, but was given to us under the grace of God:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- Ephesians 2:8

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 6:23)

As you can see, it is eternal life through Jesus Christ, not eternal life through our own works. There would be no need for Christ to gift us anything if salvation is something we obtain ourselves.

Milton Platt said:
To be clear, I am an atheist, so I don't have a dog in the fight. But I I do find the topic interesting.
Thanks for the give and take.

Glad to have you here @Milton Platt. I think we all benefit from the give and take, and I appreciate your participation.

2ndpillar · Oct 3, 2018

Oeste said:
Look at the parable of the sower. Is the sower sowing individual lives or the word of God? Do the seeds the sower throws represent himself? Do they represent some guy named Harry or some woman named Sue? They would have to in order for the tree to represent an individual.

So the trees do not represent individuals but does represent the reaction to our sowing of the word. We can sow the word or we can sow discord. There is no one to one correlations between a tree and an individual's life. We sow millions upon millions of trees (works) within our normal lifetime. Some of these works never get off the ground, some wither, and some grow into trees.

The "tree" is different for different parables. For Matthew 3:10 it represents the "brood of vipers" who were fleeing the "wrath to come". They repented, confessed their sins, were baptized, yet were told that if they didn't produce good fruit, they would be cut down and thrown into the fire. For Matthew 7:15-20, it was with respect to the fruit of the tree of the false prophets.

As for the tares sown by the devil, (Matthew 13:39-42), they would be gathered and thrown into the furnace of fire. The tare seeds, were the words sown by the "enemy" (Matthew 13:24-25) right along side the "good seed", the "word of the kingdom" (Matthew 13:19). The same field would be the NT, were you can find the tare seed, which is in the majority, and the "good seed". The tare seed was preserved until the "end of the age" (Matthew 13:30), whence, the tares will be "gathered" "first", and burned. The best descriptive for the tares is "stumbling blocks" and "those who commit lawlessness".

kjw47 · Oct 3, 2018

iam1me said:
The problem is particularly rampant among Protestants. As far as I'm aware, both Catholic and Orthodox churches maintain that works are essential for salvation. But I'm no expert on Catholic/Orthodox theology.

I believe James was saying--Without doing the works when ones faith is tested it will have a value of a dead corpse. If one does works, it builds a strong living faith that can stand.
Many things on the mortals part to get salvation. All summed up by Jesus at Matthew7:21--Those living now to do his Fathers will, get to enter his kingdom. His Fathers will= John 4:22-24

Oeste · Oct 5, 2018

2ndpillar said:
The tare seed was preserved until the "end of the age" (Matthew 13:30), whence, the tares will be "gathered" "first", and burned. The best descriptive for the tares is "stumbling blocks" and "those who commit lawlessness".

Agreed @2ndpillar!

Oeste · Oct 5, 2018

kjw47 said:
I believe James was saying--Without doing the works when ones faith is tested it will have a value of a dead corpse. If one does works, it builds a strong living faith that can stand.

Agreed @kjw47!

kjw47 said:
Many things on the mortals part to get salvation. All summed up by Jesus at Matthew7:21--Those living now to do his Fathers will, get to enter his kingdom. His Fathers will= John 4:22-24

This is where we respectfully disagree.

I do not think there is anything anyone can do to "get salvation". It has to be gifted. Those worshiping the Father in spirit and truth are believers and already have salvation, having heard the call of the Spirit and having been regenerated by the Word.

A savior is one who saves. How then, can anyone call Jesus "Savior!" if they believe Jesus hasn't saved them yet? Under works based theology, you are not currently saved because you have more "work" to do. No one is able to save you except yourself. Let's explore an analogy:

You are swimming in the ocean when a rip tide appears and you and the other swimmers come under great duress as the current rapidly takes you out to sea. Your head bobs up and down and you take in water. You notice Jesus is the lifeguard on duty. You wave a hand frantically and immediately attract his attention.

#1: Faith Based

You shout, "Jesus, save me!". Jesus walks on the water towards you. He tells you to relax and gently lifts you up. Neither the rip, tide, water, your weight, or distance from shore has any affect on him as he escorts you to shore and safety. He does the same for everyone else calling his name.

#2: Works Based

You shout, "Jesus, give me an opportunity!" Instantly Jesus points your attention to the cliff wall where a video is projected giving step by step instructions on how to swim. For others, floating books on water safety appear in the water, and for some, there are even buoys or rafts. The tide is strong so you can never make it to shore safely, but the video you're watching assures you that as long as you follow the instructions diligently, you'll be able to keep your head above water.

And it's true! As long as you follow instructions your head isn't pulled under nor do you drift out to sea. Others find that as long as they read their books, tread water, or oar against the current they too are able to keep their head above and their place in the water. This is good. The bad thing is that as soon as they relax, follow an instruction incorrectly, or let their guard down they drift further out to sea.

QUESTIONS

Who group can best describe Christ their Savior? #1 or #2?
Who's faith is rewarded to the glory of God? Who's to the glory of themselves?
Which group showed more faith in Jesus?

These questions are not just for you but for anyone who believes we are saved by our own works rather than through the grace or free gift of God.

kjw47 · Oct 5, 2018

Oeste said:
Agreed @kjw47!

This is where we respectfully disagree.

I do not think there is anything anyone can do to "get salvation". It has to be gifted. Those worshiping the Father in spirit and truth are believers and already have salvation, having heard the call of the Spirit and having been regenerated by the Word.

A savior is one who saves. How then, can anyone call Jesus "Savior!" if they believe Jesus hasn't saved them yet? Under works based theology, you are not currently saved because you have more "work" to do. No one is able to save you except yourself. Let's explore an analogy:

You are swimming in the ocean when a rip tide appears and you and the other swimmers come under great duress as the current rapidly takes you out to sea. Your head bobs up and down and you take in water. You notice Jesus is the lifeguard on duty. You wave a hand frantically and immediately attract his attention.

#1: Faith Based

You shout, "Jesus, save me!". Jesus walks on the water towards you. He tells you to relax and gently lifts you up. Neither the rip, tide, water, your weight, or distance from shore has any affect on him as he escorts you to shore and safety. He does the same for everyone else calling his name.

#2: Works Based

You shout, "Jesus, give me an opportunity!" Instantly Jesus points your attention to the cliff wall where a video is projected giving step by step instructions on how to swim. For others, floating books on water safety appear in the water, and for some, there are even buoys or rafts. The tide is strong so you can never make it to shore safely, but the video you're watching assures you that as long as you follow the instructions diligently, you'll be able to keep your head above water.

And it's true! As long as you follow instructions your head isn't pulled under nor do you drift out to sea. Others find that as long as they read their books, tread water, or oar against the current they too are able to keep their head above and their place in the water. This is good. The bad thing is that as soon as they relax, follow an instruction incorrectly, or let their guard down they drift further out to sea.

QUESTIONS

Who group can best describe Christ their Savior? #1 or #2?

Who's faith is rewarded to the glory of God? Who's to the glory of themselves?

Which group showed more faith in Jesus?

These questions are not just for you but for anyone who believes we are saved by our own works rather than through the grace or free gift of God.

Mortals=MUST live by EVERY utterance from God, Jesus said. Best to believe Jesus. God requires--baptism, repentence( Acts 3:19) Love of God and everyone else. Even ones enemies. Taking in knowledge to know the Father( one who sent Jesus( John 5:30) as THE ONLY TRUE GOD and know Jesus to get eternal life-John 17:1-6,26--verse 6= YHVH(Jehovah) 26 = YHVH(Jehovah)
Jesus warned he wouldn't be known-John 15:20-21
Revelation says--all will be judged by their works. No matter what, because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God it is Grace, whomever gets it, yet they still must live now to do Jesus Fathers will-24/7,365-Matthew 7:21--According to Matt 10:22--One must endure until the end( death or Har-mageddon) to be saved. None living have done this.

Unveiled Artist · Oct 5, 2018

Milton Platt said:
I don't know how many of the denominations fall into the protestant category (everything outside of Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy?) but I have had plenty of theists tell me you "just have to accept Jesus as your savior" or something to that effect.
But I've also noticed that the Bible says that "faith without works is dead". I'm not a theist, but thought I'd toss that out there.

Believe me, there are other verses that back that up. A lot of it is point blank, but, well....

2ndpillar · Oct 5, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Believe me, there are other verses that back that up. A lot of it is point blank, but, well....

To make any sense, you will have to define what you mean by "saved". As for Joel 2:31-32, it is for those in "Jerusalem", and those on Zion, who will escape, or "survive" in the "awesome day of the LORD". As for those who will rise from the dead and rule for 1000 years, it will be those without the mark of the beast, etc. That would preclude most of your followers of Paul, who was a predominate horn of the beast with two horns like a lamb.

Unveiled Artist · Oct 5, 2018

2ndpillar said:
To make any sense, you will have to define what you mean by "saved". As for Joel 2:31-32, it is for those in "Jerusalem", and those on Zion, who will escape, or "survive" in the "awesome day of the LORD". As for those who will rise from the dead and rule for 1000 years, it will be those without the mark of the beast, etc. That would preclude most of your followers of Paul, who was a predominate horn of the beast with two horns like a lamb.

I don't understand the connection between this, saved, and faith without works supported by many gospel verses than that just one highly quoted.

Oeste · Oct 5, 2018

kjw47 said:
Mortals=MUST live by EVERY utterance from God, Jesus said. Best to believe Jesus.

Correct. We don't live by our own works, but by the Word...Jesus.

kjw47 said:
God requires--baptism, repentence( Acts 3:19) Love of God and everyone else. Even ones enemies.

Acts 3:19 talks about repentance. Not sure how you got a baptismal requirement out of this. Was the thief on the Cross baptized?

kjw47 said:
Taking in knowledge to know the Father( one who sent Jesus( John 5:30) as THE ONLY TRUE GOD and know Jesus to get eternal life-John 17:1-6,26--verse 6= YHVH(Jehovah) 26 = YHVH(Jehovah)
Jesus warned he wouldn't be known-John 15:20-21

Nonsense. NOWHERE in scripture does it say we "get" eternal life. Eternal life is given. It's not something man gets on its own.
If you really, really feel that mankind could "get" life on its own, then there was never a need for Jesus to come. We could have simply followed the law, all of it, without breaking a single rule ever...and that would be that.

kjw47 said:
Revelation says--all will be judged by their works. No matter what, because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God

Yes we all fall short of the glory of God. Who doesn't? But that doesn't mean we all are judged!

We can NEVER obtain the same glorious status as God, so why on earth (or heaven) would God condemn us for falling short of His glory? Do you really think there is some way your own works can rival that of God? Do you seek to glorify yourself?

As for your statement "...all will be judged by their works" this is something YOU say, not scripture. Here's what scripture says:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

You are proof-texting again, lifting verses out of context in order to make a dubious, non scriptural point.

kjw47 said:
According to Matt 10:22--One must endure until the end( death or Har-mageddon) to be saved. None living have done this.

More proof-texting. Matt 10:22 is about the Tribulation period, not works! Those who endure through (survive) the Tribulation period will be saved.

It important to check context when citing verses.

kjw47 said:
it is Grace, whomever gets it, yet they still must live now to do Jesus Fathers will-24/7,365-Matthew 7:21--According to Matt 10:22--One must endure until the end( death or Har-mageddon) to be saved. None living have done this.

Salvation is something a believer has now:

"Truly, truly, I tell you, he who believes <~~must work for~~> has eternal life" John 6:24
.
Since the believer HAS eternal life they do no need to WORK for it. It's theirs. The WORK HAS already been done, and not by you, the believer, your Organization or anyone else except Christ.

Sole reliance on Christ takes faith in the one God sent, and if you do not have faith in Christ then you have NO SALVATION, because you believe he hasn't gotten around to save you or anyone else yet. In fact, you believe Christ NEVER saves because you have to do the "work" yourself!

You are still watching the video or treading water.

So when someone asks "IS CHRIST YOUR SAVIOR?":

For the faith based the answer is a resounding "YES". For the works based, the answer is "NO, NOT YET!", and for the unbelievers, it's not an issue.

kjw47 · Oct 5, 2018

Oeste said:
Correct. We don't live by our own works, but by the Word...Jesus.

Acts 3:19 talks about repentance. Not sure how you got a baptismal requirement out of this. Was the thief on the Cross baptized?

Nonsense. NOWHERE in scripture does it say we "get" eternal life. Eternal life is given. It's not something man gets on its own.
If you really, really feel that mankind could "get" life on its own, then there was never a need for Jesus to come. We could have simply followed the law, all of it, without breaking a single rule ever...and that would be that.

Yes we all fall short of the glory of God. Who doesn't? But that doesn't mean we all are judged!

We can NEVER obtain the same glorious status as God, so why on earth (or heaven) would God condemn us for falling short of His glory? Do you really think there is some way your own works can rival that of God? Do you seek to glorify yourself?

As for your statement "...all will be judged by their works" this is something YOU say, not scripture. Here's what scripture says:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

You are proof-texting again, lifting verses out of context in order to make a dubious, non scriptural point.

More proof-texting. Matt 10:22 is about the Tribulation period, not works! Those who endure through (survive) the Tribulation period will be saved.

It important to check context when citing verses.

Salvation is something a believer has now:

"Truly, truly, I tell you, he who believes <~~must work for~~> has eternal life" John 6:24
.
Since the believer HAS eternal life they do no need to WORK for it. It's theirs. The WORK HAS already been done, and not by you, the believer, your Organization or anyone else except Christ.

Sole reliance on Christ takes faith in the one God sent, and if you do not have faith in Christ then you have NO SALVATION, because you believe he hasn't gotten around to save you or anyone else yet. In fact, you believe Christ NEVER saves because you have to do the "work" yourself!

You are still watching the video or treading water.

So when someone asks "IS CHRIST YOUR SAVIOR?":

For the faith based the answer is a resounding "YES". For the works based, the answer is "NO, NOT YET!", and for the unbelievers, it's not an issue.

The thief died and paid in full the wages of sin= death. Every grave will be emptied to judgement the bible teaches. The only ones Christ is savior to are those that obey his teachings.
Believes in the real Jesus. Few know him or know what he actually taught. Like the following super important one every true follower does daily-FIRST.-- Matthew 6:33-- Therefore, keep on seeking-first- the kingdom and his ( YHVH(Jehovah) righteousness and all these other things will be added to you.( sustenance, covering, spirituality)-- then one might accomplish this-John 4:22-24
Practiced sin or willfull sin( ye who work iniquity) will not be forgiven( Matt 7:21-23)- Only repented sins.
Jesus showed all baptism was required. Its a public declaration of one dedicating their lives to the true living God-YHVH(Jehovah)--no turning back. is accepted.

2ndpillar · Oct 5, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
I don't understand the connection between this, saved, and faith without works supported by many gospel verses than that just one highly quoted.

What "highly quoted verse"? One highly quoted verse about not dying, being saved from death, is "you surely shall not die" (Genesis 3:3), but it is the product of the "evil one" (Matthew 13:38), the "devil"/serpent. What verse have you in mind, and what is its context?

Oeste · Oct 5, 2018

@kjw47:

Since you are works-based, can you answer my questions?:

]#1: Faith Based

You shout, "Jesus, save me!". Jesus walks on the water towards you. He tells you to relax and gently lifts you up. Neither the rip, tide, water, your weight, or distance from shore has any affect on him as he escorts you to shore and safety. He does the same for everyone else calling his name.

#2: Works Based

You shout, "Jesus, give me an opportunity!" Instantly Jesus points your attention to the cliff wall where a video is projected giving step by step instructions on how to swim. For others, floating books on water safety appear in the water, and for some, there are even buoys or rafts. The tide is strong so you can never make it to shore safely, but the video you're watching assures you that as long as you follow the instructions diligently, you'll be able to keep your head above water.

And it's true! As long as you follow instructions your head isn't pulled under nor do you drift out to sea. Others find that as long as they read their books, tread water, or oar against the current they too are able to keep their head above and their place in the water. This is good. The bad thing is that as soon as they relax, follow an instruction incorrectly, or let their guard down they drift further out to sea.

QUESTIONS

Who group can best describe Christ their Savior? #1 or #2?
Who's faith is rewarded to the glory of God? Who's to the glory of themselves?
Which group showed more faith in Jesus?

These questions are not just for you but for anyone who believes we are saved by our own works rather than through the grace or free gift of God.

Bonus Questions

If our salvation is "works-based":

1. Can Christians honestly claim Christ their Savior if in fact, he hasn't quite saved them yet?
2. Would it be better to call Christ our half-savior, since we're required to perform the other half ourselves?
3. Where can we find "salvation without works is dead?"*
4. Wouldn't it have been better if Jesus arrived and said "Save yourselves!" rather than be declared our Savior?
5. How long do our works, work? In other words, if I help a lady across the street, am I now saved if I die a year from now, or do I have to keep walking old ladies across the street? Am I less saved than someone working full time in a homeless shelter?
6. What if I give 10% of my yearly earning to the poor? Am I saved for the following year, only 10% of the next year, or am I only saved during the moment of donation? If I'm not saved during any of these, what is the point of the work?
7. What if I lie to my boss, cheat at tax time, or refuse to help my brother clean his garage? Does this shave off any salvation points I've earned? Can I take an indulgence, perhaps engage in some fornication, if I balance it off with some missionary work?
8. How do you explain the thief's salvation? Did he get a special work bonus none of us are privy to? Perhaps Christ was rewarding the thief, seeing him as the original Robin Hood, stealing from the rich but giving to the poor?

*Each Christian is assigned work to show their faith in God. It is our public display to the world. Our works were never intended as a mechanism toward salvation, but as a display of faith.That is why James says "Works without faith is dead". Your salvation is not your works. Your salvation is Christ. There is no "Salvation without works is dead" in our bibles because Christ is alive, and he will stay that way, whether you, me or anyone else refuses to "work" or not.

Unveiled Artist · Oct 5, 2018

2ndpillar said:
What "highly quoted verse"? One highly quoted verse about not dying, being saved from death, is "you surely shall not die" (Genesis 3:3), but it is the product of the "evil one" (Matthew 13:38), the "devil"/serpent. What verse have you in mind, and what is its context?

You're throwing me off. "Faiths without works is dead" is common. But I don't know what your referring to.

Oeste · Oct 5, 2018

kjw47 said:
The thief died and paid in full the wages of sin= death. Every grave will be emptied to judgement the bible teaches. The only ones Christ is savior to are those that obey his teachings.

If your interpretation of this were true, then everyone is saved after they die, having paid the "full wages of sin", just like the thief.

Unveiled Artist · Oct 5, 2018

Disciple of Jesus said:
My religion isn't faith based. Dont care. Thanks for sharing, though.

I dont understand your connection. Faith in the bible was never without works of somesort. Im just telling 2pillar one, I dont understand what he says, and two faith without works is dead

What are you saying?

Works vs Doctrine

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