rapture is - irresponsible christians!

Halcyon · Sep 18, 2006

darkpenguin said:
oh comon my dinosaur question is relevent!

Look up the descriptions Leviathan and Behemoth in the bible.

Actually, i'll do it for you;

Book of Job 41:1-34

Book of Job 40:15-24

There you go, dinosaurs in the bible. Enjoy!

Draka · Sep 18, 2006

I can't answer the poll! There's no option for Rapture already happening! I love that Blondie song!

*Paul* · Sep 18, 2006

Pah said:
I don't see any rapture in the verse and none in the context of chapter 11. Not even Rev 12:12 is clear that the inhabitants were plucked from the earth. Rev 13:10 says the saints are still on the earth where a beast came out of the sea and another out of the earth. Rev 14 recounts the 144,00 with the mark of the father standing on Mount Zion. The "harvesting" in that chapter is not of the faithful. So if you consider the gathering of the 144,00 to Mount Zion to be the rapture, fine. If you think it is an ascenssion into heaven, you will have to come up with better scripture on which to base your belief.

Sorry I never intended it to portray the rapture, I didn't think we were trying to do that, no my point is from this scripture that The presenter of the program was trying to say that Christians are hastening the ecological destruction of the earth (global warming) and armageddon but the verse i posted contrasts christians with those who destroy the earth. I'm not saying this is exactly what the verse means but I think it is worthy of consideration and one of the pre millenial groups I associate with used this verse to say that we should do what we can to help the enviroment, so you see not all of us rapture ready Christians out there are encouraging wars and global warming and every other problem the world might be having, if any of us are at all. No we, like God would like to see the world saved and so preach the gospel to every person, even risking our own lives in some places to do so.

*Paul* · Sep 18, 2006

nutshell said:
That's scary. I think those silly books have promoted the rapture far beyond anything else. I forgot the name of the books, but you know what' I'm talking about right? They're always prominently featured in the Christian fiction section of your local bookstore. I think the first is called "Left Behind."

I don't like the books or videos by the way, i think theytrivialise it go way beyond what is written and have turned a sacred doctrine into a merchandise.

*Paul* · Sep 18, 2006

angellous_evangellous said:
I'm actually hoping that the rapture takes place.

What could be better for the world than to be rid of the fundie evangelical wackos? God can simply take them all away, making the world a much more sane place.

No more Falwell, Robertson, or Dobson.

No more Christian Coalition or Moral Majorty -- no more right wing Christian conspiracy, and the support for Israel (for religious reasons only) would diminish from much of the popular culture. No more attempts at theocracy or hating homosexuals.

Sounds like a divine plan to me.

Thats not a very nice thing to say now is it? Though there are some "christians" out there or so I hear that think the wicked will be removed from the earth (christians) so that the world can enjoy unity and harmony without these divisive people causing all these problems. I am unaware of any conspiracy, I don't hate anyone and I don't believe the bible says that Christians should try to set up a theocracy in fact I would say that the bible teaches against this, the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of Christ when He returns, He will do it Himself.

angellous_evangellous · Sep 18, 2006

New Life said:
Thats not a very nice thing to say now is it?

I have no sympathy at all for the wackos that try to use the rapture as an evangelical tool or as a doctrine of Christian escapism. Some of these demons actually support Israel because they think that will bring the rapture sooner.

One thing should be clear: the rapture is the spontaneous disappearance of all Christians. By their definition, a Christian is one who simply prays a prayer and "accepts Jesus into their heart." Those who disappear (=raptured) will be in heaven, safe from the cares of earth. On earth, the dumb smucks who didn't confess Christ will be ruled by the Anti-Christ, who is basically following the whim of Satan, the enemy of humankind, or will be annihilated in Armageddon.

Even worse, these folks teach that families will be seperated. All children will disappear, and only adults will remain. Confess Christ or lose your children - the rapture is coming soon.

footnotes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

http://www.timlahaye.com/index.php?a=ok

*Paul* · Sep 19, 2006

angellous_evangellous said:
angellous_evangellous said:

I have no sympathy at all for the wackos that try to use the rapture as an evangelical tool or as a doctrine of Christian escapism. Some of these demons actually support Israel because they think that will bring the rapture sooner.

One thing should be clear: the rapture is the spontaneous disappearance of all Christians. By their definition, a Christian is one who simply prays a prayer and "accepts Jesus into their heart." Those who disappear (=raptured) will be in heaven, safe from the cares of earth. On earth, the dumb smucks who didn't confess Christ will be ruled by the Anti-Christ, who is basically following the whim of Satan, the enemy of humankind, or will be annihilated in Armageddon.

Even worse, these folks teach that families will be seperated. All children will disappear, and only adults will remain. Confess Christ or lose your children - the rapture is coming soon.

Click to expand...

For a start Tim La haye doesn't own the rapture and he is not the authority for it, God and His word are, I don't believe it because any man said it but because I find it in the bible and find it essential to my understanding of scripture.
A christian is not someone who prays a prayer and accepts Jesus into their heart, I used to think this and this is what i was taught in the church i grew up in and was decieved for years. A christian is someone who has been born again in Christ Jesus, through faith in Him as revealed in His word, getting someone to say some prayer is easy but if they do not understand the gospel then they can not be saved.
I don't believe and it is debated amongst evangelicals that babies and young children will be raptured, I personally believe it will only be the children of believers or where one of the parents is a believer. I can't think where the bible implies that children will be raptured or the unborn taken from the wombs.

James the Persian · Sep 19, 2006

New Life said:
For a start Tim La haye doesn't own the rapture and he is not the authority for it, God and His word are, I don't believe it because any man said it but because I find it in the bible and find it essential to my understanding of scripture.
A christian is not someone who prays a prayer and accepts Jesus into their heart, I used to think this and this is what i was taught in the church i grew up in and was decieved for years. A christian is someone who has been born again in Christ Jesus, through faith in Him as revealed in His word, getting someone to say some prayer is easy but if they do not understand the gospel then they can not be saved.
I don't believe and it is debated amongst evangelicals that babies and young children will be raptured, I personally believe it will only be the children of believers or where one of the parents is a believer. I can't think where the bible implies that children will be raptured or the unborn taken from the wombs.

I'm just curious. You do know that the Rapture was unheard of until the Plymouth Bretheren started promulgating it in the 19th century, don't you? You seem to be suggesting that you find it in Scripture and, in fact, that it's so clear to you that you find the doctrine essential. Personally I find this extremely hard to understand and I simply cannot believe that for 1800 years every Christian in the world could have missed an essential part of Scripture. Would you mind providing some passages that you believe show that the Rapture is Scriptural rather than the extra- and contra-Scriptural tradition I believe it to be? If you do a good job, you might even find that you're suddenly rich, if only in the virtual money used here.

James

fantome profane · Sep 19, 2006

JamesThePersian said:
That's easy. They aren't. Christmas does fall roughly at the same time as several pagan feasts fell, but that's irrelevant unless you want to claim that all midwinter festivals must have a common origin. In adition, there's at least equal evidence that the early Church trying to accurately date Christ's birth came up with that date as there is for a pagan connection and it really makes no difference even if the timing was done to supplant a pagan festival as the meaning of the two is quite different. Please be aware that things like Father Christmas, Christmas trees and the like, are western traditions and wholly alien to the fundamentals of Christmas. Similar things can be said for easter. The only thing that is undoubtedly pagan about it (other than similar western accidentals) is the name in English. We, though, call it Pascha, which means Passover. The dating is equally linked with the Jewish Passover also, though this is no longer the case for RCs and Protestants which is why Orthodox Pascha and western Easter rarely fall on the same date. Theophany, the third (once second) most important feast of the Church never has had any equivalent in any pagan religion.

Although I am somewhat reluctant to get in the middle of what was looking like a not so friendly debate, this interests me. I always thought it was pretty well acknowledged that many of the outward trappings of Christian celebrations had their roots in other more ancient traditions. But in my mind this is not in anyway a criticism of Christians or Christianity. There is no harm in incorporating a few fun ideas, after all a party is a party. ( I dont think the Bible was very explicit on decorations).

But what I am really interested in is your statement about evidence of the early Church trying to accurately date Christs birth. Are you saying that there is actual evidence that Christ was born on Dec 25? Can you back that up?

James the Persian · Sep 19, 2006

fantôme profane said:
But what I am really interested in is your statement about evidence of the early Church trying to accurately date Christs birth. Are you saying that there is actual evidence that Christ was born on Dec 25? Can you back that up?

No, I'm saying that there is evidence of the early Church making a genuine attempt to come up with an accurate date for Christ's birth rather than simply coopting a pagan festival. In other words, I'm saying that, and I can back this up, there is evidence that at least some in the early Church truly thought that there was evidence that Christ was born on 25th December (sorry about the convoluted sentence). All I'm saying then, is that the fact that 25th December corresponds with a pagan date does not necessarily mean that it doesn't also correspond with a genuine attempt at working out the actual date.

The historical facts behind the 'X is pagan' arguments are rarely as simple as their proponents make out. A classic example would be the oft raised issue of Mithraism. Unfortunately all these arguments fail because practically nothing is known of the beliefs of Mithraism prior to the 4th century. Any similarity then, is just as likely to be Christian influence on Mithraism as it is the reverse, despite Mithraism being the older religion, especially given its syncretistic nature and the place Christianity had gained in the Empire by that time.

I'm not necessarily sure that I agree with it, but I can send you a link to an interesting article on the dating of the Nativity if you want. As far as I'm concerned it makes no difference why 25th December was chosen or whether Christ was born then or in June. I just dislike the over-simplistic arguments of those in the 'all similarities to paganism are from Satan' crowd.

James

darkpenguin · Sep 19, 2006

you do have a valid point, maybe the date did coincide with a pagan festial, but given the fact that christians came here (england) looked at the pagan way and though 'hmm heres a plan' and then took over saying that thier 'new religion' is right and paganism is wrong, join us or die etc i am not convinced by your argument!

you can say im wrong as much as you like, but what on earth makes you right? :slap:

peace people!:rainbow1:

James the Persian · Sep 19, 2006

darkpenguin said:
you do have a valid point, maybe the date did coincide with a pagan festial, but given the fact that christians came here (england) looked at the pagan way and though 'hmm heres a plan' and then took over saying that thier 'new religion' is right and paganism is wrong, join us or die etc i am not convinced by your argument!

you can say im wrong as much as you like, but what on earth makes you right? :slap:

peace people!:rainbow1:

When exactly do you think Christianity came to Britain and exactly who spread it by the sword? I actually can't think of any episodes of forced conversion in the British Isles other than on the Isle of Wight, and that was Christian Britons converting pagan Britons, not foreign missionaries. Christianity actually came to what would later be called England in three waves, none of them particularly violent or oppressive. The first wave was the era of the likes of St. Alban when Christianity arrived as a faith amongst the Romans. At this point the Christians were victims and certainly not ina position to force any conversions. Later, after the pagan, and very violent, invasion of Angles and Saxons had pushed Christianity into Wales, Cornwall and Ireland, it returned once more, mostly in the north, through completely peaceful Celtic missionary monks and lastly St. Gregory the Great sent missionaries, again peaceful, to the south of England. Your argument might be true of certain other countries (the Frankish Empire, for instance) but I see almost no hint of such things in British history. Even if there were, though, I fail to see the relevance either to the OP or our somewhat off topic discussion. Any forced conversion would reflect badly on those doing the converting, it is true, but it would hardly be a criticism of the religion itself, only those who claim to follow it.

James

fantome profane · Sep 19, 2006

JamesThePersian said:
No, I'm saying that there is evidence of the early Church making a genuine attempt to come up with an accurate date for Christ's birth rather than simply coopting a pagan festival. In other words, I'm saying that, and I can back this up, there is evidence that at least some in the early Church truly thought that there was evidence that Christ was born on 25th December (sorry about the convoluted sentence). All I'm saying then, is that the fact that 25th December corresponds with a pagan date does not necessarily mean that it doesn't also correspond with a genuine attempt at working out the actual date.

The historical facts behind the 'X is pagan' arguments are rarely as simple as their proponents make out. A classic example would be the oft raised issue of Mithraism. Unfortunately all these arguments fail because practically nothing is known of the beliefs of Mithraism prior to the 4th century. Any similarity then, is just as likely to be Christian influence on Mithraism as it is the reverse, despite Mithraism being the older religion, especially given its syncretistic nature and the place Christianity had gained in the Empire by that time.

I'm not necessarily sure that I agree with it, but I can send you a link to an interesting article on the dating of the Nativity if you want. As far as I'm concerned it makes no difference why 25th December was chosen or whether Christ was born then or in June. I just dislike the over-simplistic arguments of those in the 'all similarities to paganism are from Satan' crowd.

James

Yes, I would love to see that link. I am skeptical but I would like to see what this is based on. It seems reasonable to me that in the absence of evidence for an actual date the church would have had other reasons for choosing that day. I agree with you that these arguments tend to be over simplistic, whether it is the over zealous Christians who say that everything Pagan is from Satan or if it is critics of Christianity who argue that anything Pagan invalidates the belief. I certainly dont want you to think I would support either of these positions. I just find it interesting.

Quoth The Raven · Sep 19, 2006

darkpenguin said:
you do have a valid point, maybe the date did coincide with a pagan festial, but given the fact that christians came here (england) looked at the pagan way and though 'hmm heres a plan' and then took over saying that thier 'new religion' is right and paganism is wrong, join us or die etc i am not convinced by your argument!

you can say im wrong as much as you like, but what on earth makes you right? :slap:

peace people!:rainbow1:

And here I thought it was just part of that whole expansion of empire, 'We've got a bloody big army that needs work, we'll have ya!' thing the Romans had going on. All the time it was a dark and nefarious plan to steal and rebrand a religion.:cover:
You do realise there's a point when the axe gets sharp and you can stop, don't you?:sarcastic

darkpenguin · Sep 19, 2006

anyways were geting completly off the subject, the subject in question was about christian people behind the scenes influencing powerfull people including george bush to end the world sooner, which is just silly, as i said before to provoke it into happening is as good as suicide, which if we are led to believe god forbids then certainly christians who promote the 'rapture'(i still have a hard time saying that word without thinking of a dinosaur lol) are and will be commiting suicide!

that was the subject of this forum!incase we all forgot!

you can say im wrong, but what makes you right?

peace:rainbow1:

MaddLlama · Sep 19, 2006

darkpenguin said:
you do have a valid point, maybe the date did coincide with a pagan festial, but given the fact that christians came here (england) looked at the pagan way and though 'hmm heres a plan' and then took over saying that thier 'new religion' is right and paganism is wrong, join us or die etc i am not convinced by your argument!

you can say im wrong as much as you like, but what on earth makes you right? :slap:

peace people!:rainbow1:

First of all, you have presented nothing that would make anybody even consider what you have to say. All you have are baseless accusations that come from your own unfounded hatred. Then, when someone refutes what you claim you don't bother to listen, and say that you know they're wrong but don't say why. I you want to engage in a debate you better come armed, or you run the risk of looking like a fool (which I might add you have already). You haven't convinced anybody here that you're smart, or that you know what you're talking about. Your debate position is nothing but sensless foaming at the mouth with hatred nonsense, and you don't bother to listen to anybody but yourself. Know what that makes you? A fundamentalist, just like those Christians you hate so much.

By the way, I would like to introduce you to my friends "capital letter" and "proper punctuation". It's also good to know standard grammar practices if you want to have a serious debate (incidently I doubt you do, but that's besides the point). I know I learned when to use a capital letter, and where the apostrophe goes when I was in grade school.

angellous_evangellous · Sep 19, 2006

New Life said:
For a start Tim La haye doesn't own the rapture and he is not the authority for it, God and His word are, I don't believe it because any man said it but because I find it in the bible and find it essential to my understanding of scripture.

Where exactly?

A christian is not someone who prays a prayer and accepts Jesus into their heart, I used to think this and this is what i was taught in the church i grew up in and was decieved for years. A christian is someone who has been born again in Christ Jesus, through faith in Him as revealed in His word, getting someone to say some prayer is easy but if they do not understand the gospel then they can not be saved.
I don't believe and it is debated amongst evangelicals that babies and young children will be raptured, I personally believe it will only be the children of believers or where one of the parents is a believer. I can't think where the bible implies that children will be raptured or the unborn taken from the wombs.

Either way it's horrible:

1) I've heard evangelicals for most of my life say that all children and babies under the age of accoutability will be raptured

http://www.leftbehind.com/

All the children in the Left Behind series were raptured, including unborn babies.

http://www.geocities.com/cobblestoneministries/Rapture_children_in.html
http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-A-5.htm
http://www.loriswebs.com/lorispoetry/infants.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/rapture-children.html

2) The other version is just as bad - children who believe will be raptured and their parents will be "left behind" to face the Tribulation period alone

3) Parents of unsaved children will be raptured for their kids to be "left behind"

4) Unsaved people and their children will be "left behind" to suffer
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/children.htm

*Paul* · Sep 19, 2006

JamesThePersian said:
I'm just curious. You do know that the Rapture was unheard of until the Plymouth Bretheren started promulgating it in the 19th century, don't you? You seem to be suggesting that you find it in Scripture and, in fact, that it's so clear to you that you find the doctrine essential. Personally I find this extremely hard to understand and I simply cannot believe that for 1800 years every Christian in the world could have missed an essential part of Scripture. Would you mind providing some passages that you believe show that the Rapture is Scriptural rather than the extra- and contra-Scriptural tradition I believe it to be? If you do a good job, you might even find that you're suddenly rich, if only in the virtual money used here.

James

There have been others who believed it before the plymouth brethren.
Psuedo-Ephraem (c347-627). Morgan Edwards late 1700s. But anyway if there wasn't one person who believed it before the brethren I still would because as I said I find it there in my bible.
One essential point in the rapture is the imminency of the return of Jesus Christ, you can find plenty of people who believed this early on and in the church "fathers". Now some passages seem to say that Jesus is going to come suddenly and unexpectedly and others don't plus there are some serious contadictions in the scriptures regarding the second coming which make it implausible to be one single event.

Rapture:
Christ coming with for His church/bride.
Jn 14v1-3: Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
1Thes 4v14-17: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord
Second coming
Christ returning with His church.
Zech 14v5: And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Jude 1v14: And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints
Caught up to meet Him in the air:
1Thes 4v17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Jesus' feet touch the earth:
Zech 14v4: And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Christians taken first, unbelievers are left behind:
1Thes 4v16-17: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wicked taken first, the righteous (tribulation saints) are left behind:
Mt 13v30: Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Happens in a moment, the twinkling of an eye:
1Cor 15v52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Slow coming, every eye shall see Him:
Rv 1v7: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Only Christians shall see Him:
1Jn 3v2: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is
Every eye shall see Him: (Rev 1:7 as above)
A message of hope and comfort:
1Thes 4v17-18: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Ti 2v13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
1Jn 3v3: And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
A message of judgement:
Jude 1v14-15: And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
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I don't know how you view the bible but for me it cannot contradict itself, God is going to pour out His wrath upon this earth one day but He will not destroy the righteous with the wicked, He will remove the righteous as He did with Lot and as He did with Noah. Nearly every Christian in the world believes in the rapture but they disagree when it will take place, i think only a-millenialists think the whole thing, including the second coming is not a literal event.
I'm not saying you have to believe this to be saved but for me I don't think the prophecies and promises in the bible make as much sense any other way. I believe there are yet two comings and a careful examination of all the scriptures describing the coming of the Lord should bring you to this conclusion. But imminency isvital:
Lk 12v40: Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
Mt 24v44: Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

MaddLlama · Sep 19, 2006

angellous_evangellous said:
Either way it's horrible:

1) I've heard evangelicals for most of my life say that all children and babies under the age of accoutability will be raptured

2) The other version is just as bad - children who believe will be raptured and their parents will be "left behind" to face the Tribulation period alone

3) Parents of unsaved children will be raptured for their kids to be "left behind"

Well, you know, God doesn't want to hang around with people who aren't going to worship him for eternity. Surely you can appriciate that.

angellous_evangellous · Sep 19, 2006

MaddLlama said:
Well, you know, God doesn't want to hang around with people who aren't going to worship him for eternity. Surely you can appriciate that.

My only hope is that God is merciful.

rapture is - irresponsible christians!

is the rapture really going to happen?

yes because of god

yes because of idiots wanting it to happen

no

dont know

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