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The Law and the New Covenant

F

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
iam1me said:
No one said anything about the 10 commandments (the Law is much bigger than just the 10). It is you who is insisting that Matthew 5:1-16 is some law to which we should restrict the understanding of Matthew 5:17-19 - but Matthew 5:1-16 is NOT a list of commandments :doh: He isn't presenting that as a new law, or even a subset of the Law to which he is restricting his speech in latter verses. You are inventing something not to be found in the text in order to dismiss what the text says.



Scripture only speaks of one Judgement, though it speaks of it many different times.
Click to expand...


The scriptures speaks of two judgement's. The Judgement seat of Christ Jesus
Romans 14:10---"But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ"

There you have the Judgement seat of Christ Jesus.
Which Christ judge's everyone according to what they have done in the flesh body.

Revelation 20:11----"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them"

There you have God's Great White Throne Judgement. Which God Judges everyone according to what they have done in the spirit. And if their name is not found in the Christ Jesus book of Life.
Revelation 20:15---"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"

Revelation 21:27--"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life"

There you have it being two Judgement's, the first one being the Judgement seat of Christ Jesus and the second one being the Great White Throne Judgement of God's.


Now as for Matthew 5:1-19, had you kept up with the program, Everything that Christ Jesus is giving, Is about the Kingdom of Heaven and God, in Verse's 3-16.

Had you paid attention to what Christ Jesus is saying in Verse 19--"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments"

What least commandments, The ones Jesus just gave back in Verse's 3-16.
These being that law of the Kingdom of Heaven and God.

It's quite obvious what Jesus is speaking about, seeing that he's pointing back to what he just gave in Verse's 3-16.

By saying, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments"

Its quite obvious what commandments Jesus is speaking about, seeing those in
Verse's 3-16 are the only ones listed
In Matthew 5:1-19.

It seems your having a hard time in keeping up with the program.
 
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iam1me

iam1me

Active Member
Faithofchristian said:
The scriptures speaks of two judgement's. The Judgement seat of Christ Jesus
Romans 14:10---"But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ"

There you have the Judgement seat of Christ Jesus.
Which Christ judge's everyone according to what they have done in the flesh body.

Revelation 20:11----"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them"

There you have God's Great White Throne Judgement. Which God Judges everyone according to what they have done in the spirit. And if their name is not found in the Christ Jesus book of Life.
Revelation 20:15---"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"

Revelation 21:27--"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life"

There you have it being two Judgement's, the first one being the Judgement seat of Christ Jesus and the second one being the Great White Throne Judgement of God's.
Click to expand...

All you have done is point out two different locations that the Judgment is talked about (and there are many more). You haven't provided any justification for the idea that these are distinct Judgments.

Now as for Matthew 5:1-19, had you kept up with the program, Everything that Christ Jesus is giving, Is about the Kingdom of Heaven and God, in Verse's 3-16.

Had you paid attention to what Christ Jesus is saying in Verse 19--"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments"

What least commandments, The ones Jesus just gave back in Verse's 3-16.
These being that law of the Kingdom of Heaven and God.

It's quite obvious what Jesus is speaking about, seeing that he's pointing back to what he just gave in Verse's 3-16.

By saying, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments"

Its quite obvious what commandments Jesus is speaking about, seeing those in
Verse's 3-16 are the only ones listed
In Matthew 5:1-19.

It seems your having a hard time in keeping up with the program.
Click to expand...

Again, Matthew 5:1-16 doesn't talk about the Law. It. does. not. exist. You are attempting to perform mental gymnastics in order to justify ignoring Matthew 5:17-20 - but so far it's just non-sense.
 
F

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
iam1me said:
All you have done is point out two different locations that the Judgment is talked about (and there are many more). You haven't provided any justification for the idea that these are distinct Judgments.



Again, Matthew 5:1-16 doesn't talk about the Law. It. does. not. exist. You are attempting to perform mental gymnastics in order to justify ignoring Matthew 5:17-20 - but so far it's just non-sense.
Click to expand...


You just don't get it, so there's no use to go on any further. Have a good day.
 
blü 2

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
iam1me said:
The scriptures are quite clear that these are two distinct covenants. He forms a Covenant with Abraham at point X and then forms a new covenant with Israel at point Y based upon the Law (not circumcision). They had circumcision because of the earlier covenant. This isn't complicated - it's just a basic chronology of events.
Click to expand...
A covenant is a compact, a deal, an agreement, a contract, especially one in solemn form.

And as I said, no Jewish source that I could find says there are two. In this context the Jews have a covenant with Yahweh, not some covenants.
iam1me said:
Only once you understand the basis for circumcision can you speak of its applicability.
Click to expand...
Only once you know what a covenant is can you read Exodus 20 and see there's no covenant in it. It describes a lawgiving, not a deal.
iam1me said:
Also, it wouldn't be important for a person of Jewish descent to make a distinction in their studies, since both covenants apply to them anyways.
Click to expand...
Find me a quote from Judaism that says that in this context there's more than one covenant.

And you forgot to tell me whether Paul's words overrule Jesus' words or not.
 
iam1me

iam1me

Active Member
blü 2 said:
A covenant is a compact, a deal, an agreement, a contract, especially one in solemn form.

And as I said, no Jewish source that I could find says there are two. In this context the Jews have a covenant with Yahweh, not some covenants.
Only once you know what a covenant is can you read Exodus 20 and see there's no covenant in it. It describes a lawgiving, not a deal.
Find me a quote from Judaism that says that in this context there's more than one covenant.

And you forgot to tell me whether Paul's words overrule Jesus' words or not.
Click to expand...

The Jewish source is scripture itself - which explicitly establishes many different covenants. It's not rocket science - you just need to read what the scriptures say.
Exodus 24 is more explicit about using the term covenant - with the Law referred to as the Book of Covenant.


Exodus 24:7-8 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, “We will do everything the Lord has said; we will obey.” 8 Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, “This is the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.”​

Also, Paul's words do not overrule Jesus' words - they are not conflict.
 
blü 2

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
iam1me said:
The Jewish source is scripture itself - which explicitly establishes many different covenants. It's not rocket science - you just need to read what the scriptures say.
Click to expand...
For the context you speak of, the ONLY covenant is that of Yahweh and Abraham. That's why you can't find any statement in Judaism to the contrary.
iam1me said:
Exodus 24 is more explicit about using the term covenant - with the Law referred to as the Book of Covenant.
Click to expand...
"book of THE covenant" - singular, you'll notice. That doesn't help your argument at all.
iam1me said:
Also, Paul's words do not overrule Jesus' words - they are not conflict.
Click to expand...
Not one letter of the Law will be altered or removed before the Kingdom's established, says Jesus, and the Law requires circumcision. Yahweh is the god of the Jews, Jesus is a circumcised Jew, Christianity begins as a sect within Judaism, the picture is clear. But Paul says circumcision isn't necessary. Paul disagrees with Jesus. The conflict between their statements is plain.

So which are we to believe?
 
iam1me

iam1me

Active Member
blü 2 said:
For the context you speak of, the ONLY covenant is that of Yahweh and Abraham. That's why you can't find any statement in Judaism to the contrary.
"book of THE covenant" - singular, you'll notice. That doesn't help your argument at all.
Not one letter of the Law will be altered or removed before the Kingdom's established, says Jesus, and the Law requires circumcision. Yahweh is the god of the Jews, Jesus is a circumcised Jew, Christianity begins as a sect within Judaism, the picture is clear. But Paul says circumcision isn't necessary. Paul disagrees with Jesus. The conflict between their statements is plain.

So which are we to believe?
Click to expand...

There was no Book of the Covenant for Abraham - you don't get to retroactively add the Law to Abraham's Covenant.

Galatians 3:17-18 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.​

Also, "the" is singular because in context it is referring to the singular covenant being established at the time - not because there is only one covenant that God has made at this point in time.

Paul does not conflict with Jesus in the least - any apparent conflict is due to your blind insistence upon the letter of the Law rather than understanding the intent/Spirit of the Law, why it calls for circumcision in the first place.

Or do you think Christ caused others to sin when he did things like tell a man to pick up his stuff and walk on the Sabbath? (John 5)
 
blü 2

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
iam1me said:
There was no Book of the Covenant for Abraham - you don't get to retroactively add the Law to Abraham's Covenant.

Galatians 3:17-18 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.​

Also, "the" is singular because in context it is referring to the singular covenant being established at the time - not because there is only one covenant that God has made at this point in time.

Paul does not conflict with Jesus in the least - any apparent conflict is due to your blind insistence upon the letter of the Law rather than understanding the intent/Spirit of the Law, why it calls for circumcision in the first place.

Or do you think Christ caused others to sin when he did things like tell a man to pick up his stuff and walk on the Sabbath? (John 5)
Click to expand...
 
W

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is the same thing as law. Law teaches us the correct path of good behavior and the incorrect path of evil behavior. Paul said, I would not have known about coveting if the law did not say thou shall not covert. Paul was forced to eat of the tree of knowledge, which in turn, connects us to Satan, who lives in that tree. Sin taking opportunity through the "learned" commandment produces sin of all kinds.

The scientific based problem with law is connected to how the brain creates and stores memory. When the brain writes to memory, aspects of the limbic system, in the core of the brain, adde emotional tags to memory. Our memory has both sensory content as well as emotional tagging. Our strongest memories has the strongest feeling tags. This is useful to the animal brain since if he encounters the same situation again, overlap of reality with memory will trigger the connected feeling tag. This feeling allows the animal to act without having to think or rethink it all over again.

Law types memories are unique, in that it tricks the writing process of the brain in an unnatural way. Law contains two conflicting emotional tags. The good side of law has tags of rest, happy, peace, while the dark side of law has tags of fear, pain and suffering. Law is one thing but has conflicting emotional tagging It is not a natural to feel both peace and fear at the same time, since it would render you indecisive unable to use instinct. When God said if you eat of that tree you shall surely die, he meant that the natural instinctive man would die.

The brain deals with the conflicting feelings but splitting law memories into two separate places. However, since law is one thing, the one side of the law becomes unconscious where it can consolidate and then underly impulse design to reconnect the memory. This is why the preacher who tries to be perfect for his flock, in terms of the law, is eventually driven with unconscious compulsions, which can make him act in ways that are evil. This is due to the unconscious potential. Sin taking opportunity through the commandment produces sin of all kinds.

Doing away with law was an attempt to restore the natural writing process, so there was no internal division in the brain, where the conscious and unconscious mind conflict with each other. For example, you may like chocolate but hate vanilla. This makes you unique and allows a full range of tagging. But there is no internal conflict, since each memory is a separate self standing memory. So there is no shadow side.

Faith in the spirit was part of the creative process for creating a full spectrum of self standing tagging, without lingering internal conflict. Forgiveness of sins allows the full spectrum to develop without the lingering conflicting feelings. Love your enemy was an attempt to retag the dark side of the law, with better tagging. Science 2000 years in the future would explain the logic of this.
 
J

Jeshurun

New Member
The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, meaning what was when he came in the flesh will come again. The reason you ask this question is because the people of the book today are in grave error just as their forefathers were; branches to be thrown in the fire. They believe they are under the 'new covenant' of Christ but they are deceived and under the Law - meaning the literal sense of the Word for so they interpret it. But what does Jesus say? The Father is looking for those who worship Him in Spirit and Truth.

This is why Paul says, "How can they follow Him they have not heard?" If Christians walked in the way of the Lord then their cities wouldn't be full of murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, extortions, slander, backbiting, intoxicants, bribery and all manner of evil; they do business in His word. The fruits we see today are the fruits of Satan - thus you shall know them by their fruits. In 2,000 years those who call themselves after Christ have not raised up one righteous city in the world for they are impotent as to good. This is why He comes again to convict them of their sin for the Lord desires mercy, not sacrifice.

"And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Each Sunday they go to their temples of stone and their preachers say week in and week out, "Know the Lord" - this is the Old Covenant. This shall not be under the New.

22 For though your people Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return. Destruction is decreed, overflowing with righteousness. 23 For the Lord God of hosts will make a full end, as decreed, in the midst of all the earth.

Many are called, but few are chosen.
 
2

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Jeshurun said:
The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, meaning what was when he came in the flesh will come again. The reason you ask this question is because the people of the book today are in grave error just as their forefathers were; branches to be thrown in the fire. They believe they are under the 'new covenant' of Christ but they are deceived and under the Law - meaning the literal sense of the Word for so they interpret it. But what does Jesus say? The Father is looking for those who worship Him in Spirit and Truth.

This is why Paul says, "How can they follow Him they have not heard?" If Christians walked in the way of the Lord then their cities wouldn't be full of murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, extortions, slander, backbiting, intoxicants, bribery and all manner of evil; they do business in His word. The fruits we see today are the fruits of Satan - thus you shall know them by their fruits. In 2,000 years those who call themselves after Christ have not raised up one righteous city in the world for they are impotent as to good. This is why He comes again to convict them of their sin for the Lord desires mercy, not sacrifice.

"And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Each Sunday they go to their temples of stone and their preachers say week in and week out, "Know the Lord" - this is the Old Covenant. This shall not be under the New.

22 For though your people Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return. Destruction is decreed, overflowing with righteousness. 23 For the Lord God of hosts will make a full end, as decreed, in the midst of all the earth.

Many are called, but few are chosen.
Click to expand...

Your refering to the false prophet Paul, the author of the false gospel of grace/cross, kind undermines your position. His teaching is that you have been "released from the Law" (Romans 7:6), and he is the cause of lawlessness, and the "many" traveling the road to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13). He is also the staff "Favor" as in being in God's favor, the gospel of grace, who was to shepherd the flock "doomed to slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7-10). Following the false prophet Paul, one of the two horns like a lamb, is to take upon oneself the "mark of the beast. Good luck with that.

As far as "circumcision", struck down by the false prophet Paul (Favor), per Zechariah 11:10, being a servant of Abraham, and attaching oneself to Jacob, is the best the road the informed "strangers" have available (Isaiah 14:1-3).
 
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J

Jeshurun

New Member
2ndpillar said:
Your refering to the false prophet Paul, the author of the false gospel of grace/cross, kind undermines your position. His teaching is that you have been "released from the Law" (Romans 7:6), and he is the cause of lawlessness, and the "many" traveling the road to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13). He is also the staff "Favor" as in being in God's favor, the gospel of grace, who was to shepherd the flock "doomed to slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7-10). Following the false prophet Paul, one of the two horns like a lamb, is to take upon oneself the "mark of the beast. Good luck with that.

As far as "circumcision", struck down by the false prophet Paul (Favor), per Zechariah 11:10, being a servant of Abraham, and attaching oneself to Jacob, is the best the road the informed "strangers" have available (Isaiah 14:1-3).
Click to expand...

So much error! As if you know better then God who His servants are! Not that you will hear but that others may not be taken captive by a false Christ:

The cause of lawlessness is Roman Catholicism; that great band of pedophiles dressed in purple and scarlet - the Whore of Babylon!

The flock doomed to slaughter is Edom, who gave up his birthright for the praise of the world! Edom is the old and Jacob is the new. "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind." This shall not be until the consummation of the Age that is, their slaughter.

The mark of the beast is to regard the Word of God according to the flesh for the flesh profiteth nothing! "From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer."

Lest you repent of your blasphemy you will be thrown in the lake of fire, an inmate of Hell!
 
2

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
iam1me said:
The Jewish source is scripture itself - which explicitly establishes many different covenants. It's not rocket science - you just need to read what the scriptures say.
Exodus 24 is more explicit about using the term covenant - with the Law referred to as the Book of Covenant.


Exodus 24:7-8 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, “We will do everything the Lord has said; we will obey.” 8 Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, “This is the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.”​

Also, Paul's words do not overrule Jesus' words - they are not conflict.
Click to expand...

Paul's words are the words of the "enemy" (Matthew 13:25), the sower of tare seed, and they were protected until the "end of the age" (Matthew 13:29-30), when they will be "first" to be gathered and burned.
 
2

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Jeshurun said:
So much error! As if you know better then God who His servants are! Not that you will hear but that others may not be taken captive by a false Christ:

The cause of lawlessness is Roman Catholicism; that great band of pedophiles dressed in purple and scarlet - the Whore of Babylon!

The flock doomed to slaughter is Edom, who gave up his birthright for the praise of the world! Edom is the old and Jacob is the new. "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind." This shall not be until the consummation of the Age that is, their slaughter.

The mark of the beast is to regard the Word of God according to the flesh for the flesh profiteth nothing! "From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer."

Lest you repent of your blasphemy you will be thrown in the lake of fire, an inmate of Hell!
Click to expand...

Wow, a true believer in the babel of Paul. You left out Paul's curse. The protestant leaders called the Roman church the "whore of Babylon", yet failed to note that their church is a daughter of the same whore, built on the same two horns like a lamb, Peter and Paul, with the Roman emperor Constantine, being the beast with two horns like a lamb, and his Roman church being the vehicle for deception for "those who dwell on the earth" Revelation 13:14.

As for Zechariah 11, of the 3 shepherds noted, who were to die in the same month/generation, Matthew 27:9-10 quotes Zechariah 11:12-13 in pointing out Judas Iscariot. The other two were Peter and Paul.

As for Edom, the clay of Daniel 2:34, mixed with the iron of Rome (Russia), they were crushed in 1967 and 1973 by a ragtag militia of the nation of Israel. They will be crushed again with the rest of the nations/Gentiles per Daniel 2:35, all at the same time.
 
2

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Faithofchristian said:
The scriptures speaks of two judgement's. The Judgement seat of Christ Jesus
Romans 14:10---"But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ"

There you have the Judgement seat of Christ Jesus.
Which Christ judge's everyone according to what they have done in the flesh body.

Revelation 20:11----"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them"

There you have God's Great White Throne Judgement. Which God Judges everyone according to what they have done in the spirit. And if their name is not found in the Christ Jesus book of Life.
Revelation 20:15---"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"

Revelation 21:27--"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life"

There you have it being two Judgement's, the first one being the Judgement seat of Christ Jesus and the second one being the Great White Throne Judgement of God's.


Now as for Matthew 5:1-19, had you kept up with the program, Everything that Christ Jesus is giving, Is about the Kingdom of Heaven and God, in Verse's 3-16.

Had you paid attention to what Christ Jesus is saying in Verse 19--"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments"

What least commandments, The ones Jesus just gave back in Verse's 3-16.
These being that law of the Kingdom of Heaven and God.

It's quite obvious what Jesus is speaking about, seeing that he's pointing back to what he just gave in Verse's 3-16.

By saying, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments"

Its quite obvious what commandments Jesus is speaking about, seeing those in
Verse's 3-16 are the only ones listed
In Matthew 5:1-19.

It seems your having a hard time in keeping up with the program.
Click to expand...

Matthew 5:19 is with respect to Matthew 5:17, which was about "the Law" and the "prophets", better known as the OT.
 
F

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
2ndpillar said:
Matthew 5:19 is with respect to Matthew 5:17, which was about "the Law" and the "prophets", better known as the OT.
Click to expand...

That of Matthew 5:17-19.
Has nothing at all to do with the
10 commandment law nor the old testament.
But what it does has to do with, is the law of the kingdom of heaven.

Had you read Matthew 5:1-19, and had notice in Verse 19, what Jesus said here,
( whosoever shall break one of these lease commandments)

What lease commandments, The ones Jesus just gave you back in Verse's 3-16.
Those are the law of the kingdom of heaven.
 
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2

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Faithofchristian said:
That of Matthew 5:17-19.
Has nothing at all to do with the
10 commandment law nor the old testament.
But what it does has to do with, is the law of the kingdom of heaven.

Had you read Matthew 5:1-19, and had notice in Verse 19, what Jesus said here,
( whosoever shall break one of these lease commandments)

What lease commandments, The ones Jesus just gave you back in Verse's 3-16.
Those are the law of the kingdom of heaven.
Click to expand...

The one who was to teach to ignore the least of the commandments was to be called "least" (Matthew 5:19). Paul means "little", and as Paul is the foremost of all things, such as the foremost sinner, the foremost (superlative) of "little", is "least". Paul taught that "we have been released from the Law", capital L. The kingdom of heaven is founded on the "tested stone", the Law and the prophets, the OT, and built with the tools of justice and righteousness. (Isaiah 28:15-17). Paul's "covenant with death shall be cancelled" (Isaiah 28:18).
 
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