"New Heavens and New Earth" - Why Destroy the Old?

rrobs · Sep 21, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
Ecclesiastes 1:4

Context. Ecclesiastes is about how things are in this present earth. People come and go, but this earth just keeps doing what it's done since God first created it. It doesn't rule out God destroying it and creating a new, better one.

rrobs · Sep 21, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
Revelation 21:5 says God is "making all things new", not 'all new things.'

I have always tried to address the verses you quote to me. I have seen very little reciprocation in that regard from you. You've addressed somewhere near none of the many verses I quoted to you. It's as though you disregard them altogether because they don't agree with your doctrine. I don't want to keep going like that. We can continue the discussion if you want, but it'd sure be nice if you addressed some of the things I brought out from the scriptures.

Maybe start by commenting on the truth that the future earth will have no sun or moon. If that is the case, how would kicking the bad people out solve the problem of the entire gravitational field being changed to the point where the earth no longer orbits the sun? Like I said, I think more than a remodel would be needed. It's going to have to be something completely unlike what we have now.

Hockeycowboy · Sep 21, 2018

I'm sorry...I didn't even realize I was doing that.

Ok, I'll start with this:

rrobs said:
Maybe start by commenting on the truth that the future earth will have no sun or moon

Question: why would you use symbolism for "the city" to mean the Earth, but then to take the sun and moon literally?

It should all be understood symbolically, wouldn't you think?

rrobs · Sep 21, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
I'm sorry...I didn't even realize I was doing that.

Ok, I'll start with this:

Question: why would you use symbolism for "the city" to mean the Earth, but then to take the sun and moon literally?

It should all be understood symbolically, wouldn't you think?

Well, darned if you aren't right on this one! It does say city, not the earth. I didn't read it close enough. The city is actually the new Jerusalem.

Now I have to scramble extra hard to stump you.

Isa 65:17,

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

I understand "create" to mean to bring something into existence that did not exist before.

Isa 66:22,

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

This is saying that it will be a new heaven and new earth. In another post I mentioned the prophetic future to explain the OT verses that say the earth will abide forever. This verse goes along with that. It's the new heavens and earth that will remain forever, not the current ones.

Isa 24:19-20,

19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Sounds pretty consuming to me. The word "dissolved" makes for a good word study;
H6565 פָּרַר parar. It generally indicates a complete breakdown of something. Nothing is left of the old. The words "utterly broken down" is the word "ra" which means completely evil, no good thing whatsoever. One of the meanings of the word "removed" in Hebrew is to disappear.

You mentioned something about the sea in Revelations 21:1 representing evil people. Here is something I thought of along those lines.

Gen 1:6-7,

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.

The firmament is the sky, including all of outer space. It looks like if we went far enough into space we would eventually hit water. Our universe is like a bubble in the midst of water. I believe that is what "collapsed" and engulfed the first heaven and earth. 2 Peter 3:6 is usually thought of as speaking to Noah's flood. I think that is not right. Instead it refers to the destruction of the first heaven's and earth that existed before Genesis 1:2. That is why the next verse goes on to speak of the heavens and earth "which are now" which will someday be melted with a fervent heat, and usher in the third heaven and third earth. Revelations 2:1 is saying that the new universe won't be at all like the present universe in that it won't be surrounded by the "sea." I must admit I'm not sure of that. One of the things I'd like to learn when he comes back.

Good discussion. I'm not saying you are wrong. You could very well be right. I'm just trying to bring another side to light.

Faithofchristian · Sep 21, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
I hope I'm putting this in a right forum!:

There are a few verses in the Scriptures where it talks about "new heavens and a new Earth", like at Isaiah 65:17, 2 Peter 3:13, & Revelation 21:1.

Revelation 21:1 adds, "for the former heavens and the former earth had passed away; and the sea is no more."

Could this be literal? Does this mean, according to the Scriptures, that this planet is going to be destroyed? (This contradicts Ecclesiastes 1:4.)

If you take it literally, then the physical heavens are going to be destroyed, also. By fire! (2 Peter 3:7-10) That's a lot of destruction! Why? (Have they been bad?) Where are all the good people gonna go? But, if not literal, then what could these 'heavens destroyed by fire' be?

There is much figurative language in the Bible, a lot that is symbolic.

At Ephesians 3:10, Paul likened the existing governments as being in "heavenly places". You can see the correlation: just as the physical heavens are above the Earth, so governments rule over, or are "above", society. So heavens, as seen here, can refer to governments, kingdoms, & authorities.

Are the "new heavens" referring to a "new" government? Yes. God's Kingdom. Daniel 2:44 says that God will set up "a kingdom" (i.e., the "new heavens"), it will destroy "all these other kingdoms" (the "former heavens"), and it will rule forever. This Kingdom is the same one Jesus taught his followers to pray for: "let Thy Kingdom come, let Thy will be done on Earth." This Kingdom, of which Jesus is the Ruler (Isaiah 9:6-7; Daniel 7:13-14), is what will accomplish God's "will", or purpose, for the Earth.

Again, what about the Earth? Well, the Bible states in many places that the Earth will never be destroyed -- it is firmly established. Please read Psalms 78:69, and Psalms 104:5, and Ecclesiastes 1:4. Also, at Isaiah 45:18, God says the Earth is "firmly established", because He wants it inhabited, to fulfill His purpose with Adam's offspring. (See Psalms 115:16) Revelation 21:1 has to be understood figuratively. Otherwise, it contradicts these other Scriptures.

So then, what could be the correct understanding of "earth" in these passages? At Genesis 11:1, it says "all the Earth continued to be of one language, and one set of words." What has a language -- the planet, or people? People, of course. So, the Earth here has to be understood as referring to people --Society.

One last thing: how could the sea be no more? Life on Earth absolutely needs the oceans! Again, the Bible explains what it means by sea. If you read Isaiah 57:20, it likens wicked people to the sea. Aren't the wicked the more turbulent part of society?
If you apply this understanding to Revelation 21:1, "the sea is no more", it's actually telling us that wicked people will be "no more"! And this also agrees with Scripture.
-- Psalms 37:9-11, Psalms 37:29; Proverbs 2:21-22.

Of the many people I've spoken with over the years regarding this, all thought that this planet Earth would be destroyed. (It's not their fault, it is what they were taught.) But, really, why? There is no reason to destroy it, it's a beautiful place! What does make sense is getting rid of the wicked on it, and those who oppose God's Kingdom ruling the Earth.

Plus, look at the context of 2 Peter 3...he likens the destruction of the world of Noah's day with the destruction of "the heavens and the Earth THAT NOW EXIST." (The American Standard version says, "But the heavens that now are, and the Earth....; Byington's renders it, "But the present heavens and earth...") Obviously, Peter is not talking about the physical heavens, because he's saying the heavens existing in Noah's day were different than "the heavens that now are", "the present heavens." What was destroyed back then? It was the society of people and their forms of government, NOT the planet nor any physical heavens.

I hope this doesn't sound 'disjointed', I actually pieced parts of threads together. Plus, there are more Scriptures I could've used.
This is just to show that, when the Bible is misunderstood, then it seems to be contradictory. (If there are a LOT of misinterpretations, then it would seem to have MANY contradictions.) But when one understands what the Bible writers were saying, then it's harmony is beautiful, and makes sense.

Best wishes to all.

This info comes from

www.jw.org

Well your info www.jw.org, is wrong.

That of 2 Peter 3, has nothing to do with the flood of Noah's.

Secondly, the earth is not going to be destroyed, But be renewed over. Not destroyed.

TransmutingSoul · Sep 21, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
Best wishes to all.

Best wishes to you Hockeycowboy.

As Jesus the Christ brought a New Heaven and a New Earth with Him, the Stars fell from Heaven, the moon stopped giving light and He fulfilled all this Prophecy Symbolically with His first appearance, it is apparent upon the return it will happen much the same way.

I would suggest it has.

Regards Tony

Faithofchristian · Sep 21, 2018

rrobs said:
Well, darned if you aren't right on this one! It does say city, not the earth. I didn't read it close enough. The city is actually the new Jerusalem.

Now I have to scramble extra hard to stump you.

Isa 65:17,

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

I understand "create" to mean to bring something into existence that did not exist before.

Isa 66:22,

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

This is saying that it will be a new heaven and new earth. In another post I mentioned the prophetic future to explain the OT verses that say the earth will abide forever. This verse goes along with that. It's the new heavens and earth that will remain forever, not the current ones.

Isa 24:19-20,

19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Sounds pretty consuming to me. The word "dissolved" makes for a good word study;
H6565 פָּרַר parar. It generally indicates a complete breakdown of something. Nothing is left of the old. The words "utterly broken down" is the word "ra" which means completely evil, no good thing whatsoever. One of the meanings of the word "removed" in Hebrew is to disappear.

You mentioned something about the sea in Revelations 21:1 representing evil people. Here is something I thought of along those lines.

Gen 1:6-7,

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.

The firmament is the sky, including all of outer space. It looks like if we went far enough into space we would eventually hit water. Our universe is like a bubble in the midst of water. I believe that is what "collapsed" and engulfed the first heaven and earth. 2 Peter 3:6 is usually thought of as speaking to Noah's flood. I think that is not right. Instead it refers to the destruction of the first heaven's and earth that existed before Genesis 1:2. That is why the next verse goes on to speak of the heavens and earth "which are now" which will someday be melted with a fervent heat, and usher in the third heaven and third earth. Revelations 2:1 is saying that the new universe won't be at all like the present universe in that it won't be surrounded by the "sea." I must admit I'm not sure of that. One of the things I'd like to learn when he comes back.

Good discussion. I'm not saying you are wrong. You could very well be right. I'm just trying to bring another side to light.

If I may say, your right on what you said about
( 2 Peter 3:6 is usually thought of as speaking to Noah's flood. I think that is not right. Instead it refers to the destruction of the first heaven's and earth that existed before Genesis 1:2.)

If you notice in 2 Peter 3:6--"Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished"

The word ( Perished) means that nothing was left over, but all ( Perished)

Unlike the flood of Noah's, there were 8 people saved alive. So not everything Perished.
But here in 2 Peter 3:6 everything Perished.

Note in 2 Peter 3:6 being overflowed with water.

This is why in Genesis 1:2, we find the water covering the earth.and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Therefore the earth was covered over by water, this is what happen that destroyed the first heaven and earth age.
This is where the dinosaur bones come from, the first heaven and earth age.

So you were right, about what you said.
About 2 Peter 3:6.

TransmutingSoul · Sep 21, 2018

rrobs said:
Isa 24:19-20,

19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

This can be understood as the law of the previous Faith. When man dominates over what God gave them as law and decides for themselves what is best, then God gives a New Heaven, which is the new Messenger and a new earth which is the renewal of the law.

The followers of the previous law move like a drunked between the haze they have made of Gods Law.

A good example of this is the threads started on same sex gender Issues. Note the former faith adherents differ widely in view. Those with the New Earth stand firm.

Regards Tony

OtherSheep · Sep 22, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
That's right! This is a beautiful planet...God wants to protect it. It makes no sense to destroy it, it's done nothing wrong.

It's like if you built a wonderful condominium; if your tenants started tearing the place apart, ie., kicking in the walls, tearing out light fixtures, would you burn the place down to get rid of them? No! You'd evict them, and find others who would respect it.

Since the nations were angry... they probably pulled the all water pipes and gaslines loose and cranked the valves... the earth wouldn't recover from some of the things man makes with his destructive one-upmanship toys. Winning is all they care about; and if they can't win, then dang it, nobody gets the prize! The Samson Option.

OtherSheep · Sep 22, 2018

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
This can be understood as the law of the previous Faith. When man dominates over what God gave them as law and decides for themselves what is best, then God gives a New Heaven, which is the new Messenger and a new earth which is the renewal of the law.

The followers of the previous law move like a drunked between the haze they have made of Gods Law.

A good example of this is the threads started on same sex gender Issues. Note the former faith adherents differ widely in view. Those with the New Earth stand firm.

Regards Tony

Heaven and Earth will pass away, but Jesus' words will never pass away.
Jesus explained the Law of Moses. He doesn't even mention the things which will not be allowed to happen when the Kingdom of Heaven rules the Earth. Spiritualizing everything which they cannot comprehend and/or to which they refuse to submit, is the reason for most of the haze of which you speak. Please don't add to the smog problem.

TransmutingSoul · Sep 22, 2018

OtherSheep said:
Heaven and Earth will pass away, but Jesus' words will never pass away.
Jesus explained the Law of Moses. He doesn't even mention the things which will not be allowed to happen when the Kingdom of Heaven rules the Earth. Spiritualizing everything which they cannot comprehend and/or to which they refuse to submit, is the reason for most of the haze of which you speak. Please don't add to the smog problem.

The New Heaven and New Earth arrived when Christ again came in the Glory of God the Father.

His Word never passes away, but the old worn garments are discarded and the new garments put on.

The first become the last and the last become the first as it is they that usually accept the new garments.

The Bab and Baha'u'llah have now explained the Messages given by Christ and Muhammad.

Habakkuk 1:5 "Look at the nations and watch-- and be utterly amazed. For I am going to do something in your days that you would not believe, even if you were told."

Regards Tony

OtherSheep · Sep 24, 2018

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The New Heaven and New Earth arrived when Christ again came in the Glory of God the Father.

This is obviously one-connected-event:

21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.--Revelation

11:35 Jesus wept.--John

QUOTE="Tony Bristow-Stagg, post: 5788494, member: 62223"]
His Word never passes away, but the old worn garments are discarded and the new garments put on.
[/QUOTE

The new wine ferments and would burst old wineskins, which is why new wineskins are born from above.

QUOTE="Tony Bristow-Stagg, post: 5788494, member: 62223"]
Habakkuk 1:5 "Look at the nations and watch-- and be utterly amazed. For I am going to do something in your days that you would not believe, even if you were told."
[/QUOTE

But God explains what He's going to do, in the very next verse:
"6 Wherefore, behold, I stir up the Chaldeans, the bitter and hasty nation, that walks upon the breadth of the earth, to inherit tabernacles not his own."

TransmutingSoul · Sep 24, 2018

OtherSheep said:
The new wine ferments and would burst old wineskins, which is why new wineskins have to be born from above.

All things are made new and Christ said;

'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name."

That name is The 'Glory Of God' or 'Glory of the Lord'. Baha'u'llah.

You will note many Biblical Prophecies connect the 'Glory of God' or 'Glory of the Lord' with the Last days, the end of the age.

This one Literally fulfilled;

Isaiah 35:2 "it will burst into bloom; it will rejoice greatly and shout for joy. The glory of Lebanon will be given to it, the splendor of Carmel and Sharon; they will see the glory of the LORD, the splendor of our God."

Regards Tony

Notaclue · Sep 24, 2018

rrobs said:
Well, darned if you aren't right on this one! It does say city, not the earth. I didn't read it close enough. The city is actually the new Jerusalem.

Now I have to scramble extra hard to stump you.

Isa 65:17,

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

I understand "create" to mean to bring something into existence that did not exist before.

Isa 66:22,

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

This is saying that it will be a new heaven and new earth. In another post I mentioned the prophetic future to explain the OT verses that say the earth will abide forever. This verse goes along with that. It's the new heavens and earth that will remain forever, not the current ones.

Isa 24:19-20,

19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Sounds pretty consuming to me. The word "dissolved" makes for a good word study;
H6565 פָּרַר parar. It generally indicates a complete breakdown of something. Nothing is left of the old. The words "utterly broken down" is the word "ra" which means completely evil, no good thing whatsoever. One of the meanings of the word "removed" in Hebrew is to disappear.

You mentioned something about the sea in Revelations 21:1 representing evil people. Here is something I thought of along those lines.

Gen 1:6-7,

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.

The firmament is the sky, including all of outer space. It looks like if we went far enough into space we would eventually hit water. Our universe is like a bubble in the midst of water. I believe that is what "collapsed" and engulfed the first heaven and earth. 2 Peter 3:6 is usually thought of as speaking to Noah's flood. I think that is not right. Instead it refers to the destruction of the first heaven's and earth that existed before Genesis 1:2. That is why the next verse goes on to speak of the heavens and earth "which are now" which will someday be melted with a fervent heat, and usher in the third heaven and third earth. Revelations 2:1 is saying that the new universe won't be at all like the present universe in that it won't be surrounded by the "sea." I must admit I'm not sure of that. One of the things I'd like to learn when he comes back.

Good discussion. I'm not saying you are wrong. You could very well be right. I'm just trying to bring another side to light.

Hi,

Rev.12:7(ASV) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels; 8And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

10And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death.

Lk.10:17(ASV) And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject unto us in thy name.
18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.
19Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall in any wise hurt you.
20Nevertheless in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.*

I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.

*Rev.21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Jn.12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice hath not come for my sake, but for your sakes. 31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Jn.16:10 of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye behold me no more;
11 of judgment, because the prince of this world hath been judged.

the prince of this world hath been judged.

This all happened before Jesus was crucified.

Peace.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. (2Cor.5:17)

rrobs · Sep 24, 2018

Notaclue said:
Hi,

Rev.12:7(ASV) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels; 8And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

10And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death.

Lk.10:17(ASV) And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject unto us in thy name.
18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.
19Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall in any wise hurt you.
20Nevertheless in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.*

I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.

*Rev.21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Jn.12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice hath not come for my sake, but for your sakes. 31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Jn.16:10 of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye behold me no more;
11 of judgment, because the prince of this world hath been judged.

the prince of this world hath been judged.

This all happened before Jesus was crucified.

Peace.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. (2Cor.5:17)

Have you ever heard of the prophetic future? Much of John spoke of the future in a way that made it seem the present. I made a post about this earlier in this thread. Although it speaks of the prophetic future in the Old Testament, the same applies to all the Gospels. They were still Old Testament despite the large printed "New Testament" immediately before the Gospel of Matthew in virtually all Bibles. That page was not part of the original God breathed word. The New Testament begins in the book of Acts on the day of Pentecost. That is when the OT passed away and the NT began.

Here's a link to the post I mentioned: <a href=""New Heavens and New Earth" - Why Destroy the Old?"></a>

"New Heavens and New Earth" - Why Destroy the Old?

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