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72 Raisins, not 72 Virgins

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I was told that, as I hang in eternal fire by my hair for the
grim and unnatural sin of going about with my hair
uncovered, thus inciting men to lust and lose their way,
my skin will be eternally replaced so that it may be burned off
again.

So I suppose, the poor virgins will have to get recycled
too.
And whoever said those virgins would be comely young lasses?
There are other kinds of virgins which perhaps await these lusty martyrs...
th
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
did you mean it like that?

The Qur-ān has been translated to modern arabic since Muhammad.
I don't know what you mean by "translated".

But as I was reading various sites, the issue of dialects was closer to what I had in mind:

Actually the trend in the Arabic world has been towards the acceptance of dialects and the shedding of Fus7a. If you watch a session of the Egyptian parliament for instance, you'd question whether Fus7a is the official language of the country, also a lot of media in Egypt is produced in their dialect. Almost all TV serials, Disney cartoon translations and movies are in their dialect as well. This situation exists to some extent in other countries too. Also a lot of kids programs on TV now are being produced in dialects rather than in Fus7a.

Qur'anic Arabic vs. modern Arabic
 

Anthem

Active Member
I don't know what you mean by "translated".

But as I was reading various sites, the issue of dialects was closer to what I had in mind:

Actually the trend in the Arabic world has been towards the acceptance of dialects and the shedding of Fus7a. If you watch a session of the Egyptian parliament for instance, you'd question whether Fus7a is the official language of the country, also a lot of media in Egypt is produced in their dialect. Almost all TV serials, Disney cartoon translations and movies are in their dialect as well. This situation exists to some extent in other countries too. Also a lot of kids programs on TV now are being produced in dialects rather than in Fus7a.

Qur'anic Arabic vs. modern Arabic
By translated I mean translated from old arabic to modern arabic.

The arabic dialects are another story.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
If someone tried to use me that way, one of us would die.

It is just such a disgustingly sexist idea, so degrading to
women. Being awarded as prizes, to be used for recreation.

Even worse, the virgins are a reward, not an award. Even more demeaning.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Raisins? Raisins? In what alternate reality does that even make sense? Now dates I could understand.

That's it...they thought dates meant virgins...in heaven you get 72 dates with virgins...

So why are virgins so great?...I know my first time probably wasn't my partner's best time. Can you earn an upgrade to lonely housewife?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
That's it...they thought dates meant virgins...in heaven you get 72 dates with virgins...

So why are virgins so great?...I know my first time probably wasn't my partner's best time. Can you earn an upgrade to lonely housewife?
You could rewrite the Koran to offer "72 MILFS".


What.....too crude?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The alternative translation of "raisins" has been kicking around for decades.
I've long found the idea amusing.....some thug martyrs himself in a horribly
painful death, taking many innocents with him...then he's rewarded with....
box-of-raisins.jpg

How do you divide up your 72 raisins to be satisfying for an eternity?

Even if you wish the word not to ever change in a meaning, there is nothing about a thug or a cat martyring related to this word in the Quran. So you have mixed up many things out of unawareness. No offence, this is for your knowledge alone.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The word Houri comes from the root hawara. It has varying meanings but it does not mean virgin. Houri in essence means the intensity of something like a colour. How intense is the black or white? More specifically in the eye. And there are many more applications. Even to a Platanus tree. Another example is hawariyun a laundry service. It means they are whitening your clothes by washing them. When it comes to a woman, its used to convey the fairness generally.

72 virgins waiting for you a Islamic mythology. It does not have anything to do with the Quran. But yeah, people talk a lot of conjecture they see all over the internet for their personal gratification I suppose.

peace.
 
Going further, this is a classic example of the problem of translation because the real question is how would people have understood the Quran early on when the Arabic used was the Arabic everyone understood.

An interesting point to not is that early exegetes clearly didn't know how to interpret certain verses, with 'orthodox' interpretations only becoming standardised centuries after the fact.

Tabari, for example, often presents numerous potential interpretations of verses that are contradictory. There have also been disputes about how to interpret numerous hapax legomena (words which only appear once) especially when they appear to be non-Arabic loan words.
 
Tabari, for example, often presents numerous potential interpretations of verses that are contradictory.

An example, from GS Reynolds - The Quran and its Biblical Subtext:

This is only one of many explanations that Tabari considers. According to the first explanation Abraham’s wife laughed when she saw that his guests did not eat.239 According to the second explanation, she laughed when she heard that the angels were to destroy the people of Lot, “pleased that God’s punishment had come upon a heedless people.”240 According to the third explanation (stated with a circumlocution for modesty’s sake), she laughed when she realized that the visitors would not do to them that which Lot’s people were known to do. The fourth explanation is that of Tafsir MuqAtil, that she laughed when she saw Abraham’s fear of the messengers.

According to the fifth explanation Abraham’s wife laughed when she received the good news of Isaac and Jacob, that is, she laughed with joy because of the miracle granted to her. pabarc immediately notes that this explanation contradicts the word order of the Qur’an.241 There is, he notes, a philological device (SCla) that could solve this diffculty, namely taqir al- muqaddam: understanding later that which appears earlier. Tabari, however, declares his preference to avoid using such devices.

The sixth explanation is that of Qummc, that she did not laugh at all but rather menstruated (SARat). Tabari is likewise suspicious of this creative interpretation, noting that the grammarians of Kefa reject entirely this second-ary meaning for RaSikat.242 Finally, according to the seventh explanation Abraham’s wife laughed when she heard that the angels were to destroy the people of Lot, out of relief that her own family was going to be safe.

Tabari favors the explanation that Abraham’s wife laughed out of satisfaction that Lot’s people would be destroyed (the second view above).243 This is the best explanation, Tabari remarks, since the last phrase in the Qur’an before RaSikat (i.e. at the end of Q 11.70) is “Do not fear. We have been sent to the people of Lot.” Tabari concludes: “Thus the laughter and amazement can only have been due to the affair of Lot’s people.” ...

Nevertheless there are signs in hud that the Qur’an is in conversation with the Biblical account that has Sarah laugh when she hears the news of Isaac. To begin with, the Qur’an follows quite closely here the sequence of the Biblical account: from the visitation to Abraham (Gn 18.1–16; Q 11.69–73), to Abraham’s plea for Lot’s people (Gn 18.17–33; Q 11.74–6), to the destruction of Lot’s people (Gn 19.1–29; Q 11.77–83). In doing so, however, the Qur’an neither reproduces the Biblical account in full nor provides an alternative account. Instead the Qur’an develops its own homily, or religious exhortation, using references to the Biblical story along the way. This suggests that the Qur’an assumes that its audience is already familiar with this story.

Thus it is perfectly reasonable for the Qur’an to allude to the laughter of Sarah without a detailed explanation thereof. It is also reasonable for the Qur’an (in Q 11.71) to mention that laughter before the annunciation of Isaac’s birth, and to expect the reader nevertheless to understand that the annunciation came first (as Tabari puts it, through ta”khCr al-muqaddam). In fact, the Qur’an has a perfectly good literary reason for doing so. For here as elsewhere the Qur’an follows a rhyme scheme [and reversing the order is necessary to maintain this]
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
https://globalnation.inquirer.net/163694/raisins-not-virgins-quran-scholars-say

From the article
It has been said that Muslim martyrs will be rewarded with 72 virgins in heaven, or paradise. But a growing number of Quran scholars and Islamic theologians have contested its interpretation.

In the CNN special show “Why They Hate Us” in 2016, Canadian author and Quran scholar Irshad Manji said the word “virgin” in the Quran meant “raisin.”“Nowhere in the Quran does it promise 72 virgins, 70 virgins, 48 virgins. … The Arabic word for ‘virgin’ has been mistranslated. The original [word] that was used in the Quran was the word for raisin, not virgin

Imagine the disappointment of those suicider bombers.

For some reasons, the word virgin seems to have a predilection to be mistranslated in holy books.

Ciao

- viole
 
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