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Number of times the word "homosexuality" appears in Baha'i scriptures

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
For example, how many of them would want to be required to have their parents' permission to marry?
Bahai requires parental permission for marriage? Seriously?
What if the parents disagree? Does the male parent rule? What if the fathers both want their kids to marry in a way that is more advantageous to the dad`s ambitions, but the mom`s both want their children to be happy?

Sounds pretty ugly to me. Maybe it`s time for a new Messenger to update God`s Message to reflect modern morality?
Heck, I`ll do it.

Tom
 

wandering peacefully

Which way to the woods?
Zero, in any Baha'i scriptures that I've ever seen or heard of.

ETA:

More precisely, I've never been able to find the word "homosexuality" in the writings of Baha'u'llah or Abdul'l-Baha, or in any books or letters from Shoghi Effendi other than private responses to questions about it from individuals.
134. the subject of boys ¶107

The word translated here as “boys” has, in this context, in the Arabic original, the implication of pederasty. Shoghi Effendi has interpreted this reference as a prohibition on all homosexual relations.

The Bahá’í teachings on sexual morality center on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Bahá’í law thus restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.

In a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi it is stated:

No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong. To say that it is ideal is no excuse. Immorality of every sort is really forbidden by Bahá’u’lláh, and homosexual relationships He looks upon as such, besides being against nature. To be afflicted this way is a great burden to a conscientious soul. But through the advice and help of doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this handicap.

Bahá’u’lláh makes provision for the Universal House of Justice to determine, according to the degree of the offense, penalties for adultery and sodomy (Q&A 49).The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library

So I guess they use the UHJ as the excuse for condemning it. I wonder how many other rules get fudged?
 

wandering peacefully

Which way to the woods?
Zero, in any Baha'i scriptures that I've ever seen or heard of.

ETA:

More precisely, I've never been able to find the word "homosexuality" in the writings of Baha'u'llah or Abdul'l-Baha, or in any books or letters from Shoghi Effendi other than private responses to questions about it from individuals.
While we are at it, I know there are a fist full of bahai threads but I don't feel like scanning them all to find a good place for my question so I'll do it here since you seem to be reasonable and not fanatical about your chosen religion.

What exactly makes this a "new religion for this day"? Can you list 5 social teachings, which seem to be at the heart of people pushing this religion, which are new and relevant that are not already components of hundreds of other religions? Both past and current? I have yet to see quoted any of these laws that are supposed to unite the world in peace and harmony under the bahai world theocracy.

I hear a lot of its so great and so new but have not seen what the list is if you could?
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I have a bit of a problem with restrictions that differentiate LGBT rights from those of other people, even when they appear to favor the LGBT.

That may appear harmless at first glance, but I don't think that is quite true.
I can understand that very well. The same way that favorable stereotypes can help perpetuate prejudice and discrimination as much as unfavorable ones.
But the choice should not be based on whether the people involved are LGBT.
I agree.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Can you list 5 social teachings, which seem to be at the heart of people pushing this religion ...
I was already thinking of doing that, but I was hesitating because I’m uncomfortable with how much I’ve been saying about it already. I’ll go ahead and do it though, now that you’ve given me an excuse. :D It will be later in a new thread, something like “Baha’i principles taken from other religions and from the Enlightenment?” I have some other questions to answer from other people though, before that.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Zero, in any Baha'i scriptures that I've ever seen or heard of.

ETA:

More precisely, I've never been able to find the word "homosexuality" in the writings of Baha'u'llah or Abdul'l-Baha, or in any books or letters from Shoghi Effendi other than private responses to questions about it from individuals.
This sound like you are wanting to have a debate or start a discussion amongst Baha’is as part of this thread. Would that be right? I don’t mind discussing the topic of homosexuality and the Baha’i Faith. I’m not sure what exactly you’re wanting though? Reading between the lines I wonder if you are testing the waters amongst the Baha’is here and challenging us to be more open to the diversity of opinions and perspectives Baha’is have on this issue?

Something I really like about being a Baha’i is the freedom we have to discuss amongst ourselves and others many of the issues that are of concern to us in our day to day lives.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
This sound like you are wanting to have a debate or start a discussion amongst Baha’is as part of this thread. Would that be right?
I don't remember that being part of what I was aiming for, but I have no objection to it, if anyone wants to do it.
I don’t mind discussing the topic of homosexuality and the Baha’i Faith. I’m not sure what exactly you’re wanting though?
Anything you or any other Baha'i wants to say about it is okay with me, but for my purposes I don't need any Baha'is to say anything.
Reading between the lines I wonder if you are testing the waters amongst the Baha’is here and challenging us to be more open to the diversity of opinions and perspectives Baha’is have on this issue?
I don't remember that being part of what I was aiming for. I gave up having any discussions here with any Baha'is about any of my issues, after what happened when I tried to do that.
Something I really like about being a Baha’i is the freedom we have to discuss amongst ourselves and others many of the issues that are of concern to us in our day to day lives.
Freedom for some of us to discuss some of our issues. Not the freedom that I would like to see for all of us to discuss all our issues, although I have seen a lot of improvement.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Nor does it appear in the bible (Jewish OT or Christian NT). I doubt it appears in the Koran either. What is the issue?

1 Corinthians 6:9 (AMP) (AMPC) (ESV) (ESVK) (HCSB) (TPT) (TLV)
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [by perversion], nor those who participate in homosexuality,

1 Timothy 1:10 (ESV) (ESVK) (MOUNCE) (NIV) (NIVUK) (NLT)
the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,

Romans 1:26-27 (TPT)
For this reason God gave them over to their own disgraceful and vile passions. Enflamed with lust for one another, men and women ignored the natural order and exchanged normal sexual relations for homosexuality. Women engaged in lesbian conduct, and men committed shameful acts with men, receiving in themselves the due penalty for their deviation.
And several places in the OT.

.
 
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Jim

Nets of Wonder
What exactly makes this a "new religion for this day"? Can you list 5 social teachings, which seem to be at the heart of people pushing this religion, which are new and relevant that are not already components of hundreds of other religions? Both past and current? I have yet to see quoted any of these laws that are supposed to unite the world in peace and harmony under the bahai world theocracy.

I hear a lot of its so great and so new but have not seen what the list is if you could?
I changed my mind about starting a new thread. I think I’ve talked too much about the Baha’i Faith already. You can find answers to those questions at www.bahai.org. If you want to know what good I see the Baha’i Faith doing, you can read about that here:

What good I see in the Baha’i Faith
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@Jim and @adrian009 how do Baha'i's view homosexual practice? If there were very specific laws governing sexual practices in Israel, (God given) then do you take the Bible's view of these things? (Genesis 1:27, 28; Leviticus 18:22; Proverbs 5:18, 19)

We (JW's) take the view of 'hating the sin but not the sinner'. Just because one is born with a genetic predisposition towards gender confusion, does not mean that they have to engage in practices that God clearly condemns. The transmission of life is a sacred act, but humans in their sinful condition, have taken that and abused the privilege without the benefit and commitment of scriptural marriage.

The whole idea of marriage and family is God's arrangement, with the goal of producing children in a secure and loving environment that raises children with balanced views of gender, sex and commitment. We see that these standards have all but disappeared these days. I don't see that it has contributed to anything beneficial to people's lives though....do you?

Mention of homosexual practice is in Paul's writings, but for good reason. Jews already knew God's law but since Paul was assigned as "an apostle to the nations" homosexual practice was common among those nations, so his words reflect God's laws on sexual practice for those who needed to adjust their view if they were going to become Christians. (Romans 1:26, 27; 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10) Also Peter mentioned "men who practice homosexuality" in 1 Timothy 1:8-10, whereas Paul also mentions lesbians.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
@Jim and @adrian009 how do Baha'i's view homosexual practice? If there were very specific laws governing sexual practices in Israel, (God given) then do you take the Bible's view of these things? (Genesis 1:27, 28; Leviticus 18:22; Proverbs 5:18, 19)

We (JW's) take the view of 'hating the sin but not the sinner'. Just because one is born with a genetic predisposition towards gender confusion, does not mean that they have to engage in practices that God clearly condemns. The transmission of life is a sacred act, but humans in their sinful condition, have taken that and abused the privilege without the benefit and commitment of scriptural marriage.

The whole idea of marriage and family is God's arrangement, with the goal of producing children in a secure and loving environment that raises children with balanced views of gender, sex and commitment. We see that these standards have all but disappear these days. I don't see that it has contributed to anything beneficial to people's lives though....do you?

Mention of homosexual practice is in Paul's writings, but for good reason. Jews already knew God's law but since Paul was assigned as "an apostle to the nations" homosexual practice was common among those nations, so his words reflect God's laws on sexual practice for those who needed to adjust their view if they were going to become Christians. (Romans 1:26, 27; 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10) Also Peter mentioned "men who practice homosexuality" in 1 Timothy 1:8-10, whereas Paul also mentions lesbians.

Hi @Deeje , the Baha’i laws in regards marriage and chastity have similarities to many other faiths in that a sexual relationship is only permitted between a man and woman who are married. Premarital sexual relationships and same sex marriages are contrary to Baha’i law. These Baha’i laws seem to me a clear reflection of God’s will for humanity and make sense. However I’m heterosexual and appreciate these laws are a formidable challenge to those who identify as homosexual.

I believe many lose sight of the main purpose of sex is procreation and the main purpose of marriage is to raise children who have good character.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
... how do Baha'i's view homosexual practice? If there were very specific laws governing sexual practices in Israel, (God given) then do you take the Bible's view of these things? (Genesis 1:27, 28; Leviticus 18:22; Proverbs 5:18, 19)
I see that Baha'u'llah prohibits something that is translated into English as "sodomy," and that He's embarrassed to even mention something that He calls "the subject of boys." In my research in Baha'i and Muslim scriptures, trying to find out precisely what sexual practice is prohibited between two men or two women, all I found was more ambiguities. I had to go all the way back to Leviticus to find the answer I was looking for. Currently I don't think it's the business of any person or any institution to try to impose their interpretation of it on anyone. I think it's up to each person to decide for themselves.
Just because one is born with a genetic predisposition towards gender confusion ...
What I see as gender confusion is thinking that people are born with an irremediable incapacity to ever fall in love with, or be sexually aroused by, any person of one sex type or another. It amazes me that anyone can fail to see the blatant sexism in that. I think that most women know that's a myth. Imagine people saying that some people are born with an irremediable capacity to ever fall in love with any Chinese person or any Latino. After more than 50 years of feeling repulsed by the idea of sex between two men, I decided to see if I could be sexually aroused by looking at a man's body, and as soon as I allowed myself to try it, it was as easy as falling off a log. I remember feeling sexually aroused by a tree once.
... does not mean that they have to engage in practices that God clearly condemns.
I agree with that. I don't agree with any person or any institution deciding now, for everyone, what sexual practice God condemns between two men or two women.
The transmission of life is a sacred act, but humans in their sinful condition, have taken that and abused the privilege without the benefit and commitment of scriptural marriage.
I may or may not agree with some or all of that, depending on what it means to you in practice, but I don't see what it has to do with homosexuality.
The whole idea of marriage and family is God's arrangement, with the goal of producing children in a secure and loving environment that raises children with balanced views of gender, sex and commitment.
What I see as the whole idea of God's prescriptions for mothers and fathers is to raise children in ways that will bring out the best possibilities in them and in society.
We see that these standards have all but disappear these days. I don't see that it has contributed to anything beneficial to people's lives though....do you?
If you're talking about God's standards for mothers and fathers, it looks to me those were abandoned long before gays and homosexuality became an issue. All gays have done has been to take widely popular views of love, marriage, romance and sex, to their logical conclusions. If you're talking about the standards that people have substituted in the place of God's, I'm glad to see them disappearing.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I see that Baha'u'llah prohibits something that is translated into English as "sodomy," and that He's embarrassed to even mention something that He calls "the subject of boys." In my research in Baha'i and Muslim scriptures, trying to find out precisely what sexual practice is prohibited between two men or two women, all I found was more ambiguities. I had to go all the way back to Leviticus to find the answer I was looking for. Currently I don't think it's the business of any person or any institution to try to impose their interpretation of it on anyone. I think it's up to each person to decide for themselves.

Leviticus is pretty straightforward about what God approves of and what he doesn't. (Leviticus 18:22)
Sodomy was practiced in the city named for it in Abraham's time. The angels that went to escort his nephew Lot and his family out of that depraved city were the target of their wicked intentions. Lot even offered his daughters to the sex crazed mob, knowing full well that heterosexual activity was of no interest to these deviates, but trying to bide time. They were struck blind whilst the angels got them out to safety. (2 Peter 2:6-8; Jude 7) This city served as a warning for things to come.

What I see as gender confusion is thinking that people are born with an irremediable incapacity to ever fall in love with, or be sexually aroused by, any person of one sex type or another. It amazes me that anyone can fail to see the blatant sexism in that.

Sexism did not exist in Bible times. Each member of the family had a role to play and if each stayed within the role assigned, the whole family benefited. Homosexuality is a product of sin, not design. God designed the human body for sexual relations to produce children. Homosexuals cannot produce children without the involvement of a third party, which is technically scriptural adultery.

The seed of life is a sacred thing, not something to be placed in a body's sewage outlet. How demeaning to the Creator!

Imagine people saying that some people are born with an irremediable capacity to ever fall in love with any Chinese person or any Latino. After more than 50 years of feeling repulsed by the idea of sex between two men, I decided to see if I could be sexually aroused by looking at a man's body, and as soon as I allowed myself to try it, it was as easy as falling off a log. I remember feeling sexually aroused by a tree once.

I do not see any law of God prohibiting sex with a Chinese or Latino marriage mate. But his law does specifically prohibit sex between people who are not married...regardless of gender. Losing our abhorrence of the things God hates is the first step towards committing sin.

I agree with that. I don't agree with any person or any institution deciding now, for everyone, what sexual practice God condemns between two men or two women.

Do you see the contradiction in your statement? If the person or institution is espousing God's law, then they are not making decisions about sexual activity...God is.

I may or may not agree with some or all of that, depending on what it means to you in practice, but I don't see what it has to do with homosexuality.

Any sexual activity that is outside of scriptural marriage is unacceptable to God. Those who promote things that God has clearly condemned is a dangerous proposition.

If you're talking about God's standards for mothers and fathers, it looks to me those were abandoned long before gays and homosexuality became an issue. All gays have done has been to take widely popular views of love, marriage, romance and sex, to their logical conclusions. If you're talking about the standards that people have substituted in the place of God's, I'm glad to see them disappearing.

The human race has been on a downward spiral since Eden. The world we have today has abandoned all standards of morality. This is to be expected since the ruler of this world (1 John 5:19) will make sure that he steers people away from God and onto a broad and spacious road to death. (Matthew 7:13-14)
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Jim said:

"I don't agree with any person or any institution deciding now, for everyone, what sexual practice God condemns between two men or two women."
Do you see the contradiction in your statement? If the person or institution is espousing God's law, then they are not making decisions about sexual activity...God is.
What I meant was, that I don't agree with any person or institution deciding for everyone, how to interpret what any scriptures say about a prohibition against some kind of sexual practice between two men.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
What I meant was, that I don't agree with any person or institution deciding for everyone, how to interpret what any scriptures say about a prohibition against some kind of sexual practice between two men.

How do you misinterpret a scripture like Leviticus 18:22....?

"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

We are not left in any doubt as to how God feels about these things. (1 Thessalonians 4:3-5; Colossians 2:8; James 1:14-15)
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
Leviticus is pretty straightforward about what God approves of and what he doesn't. (Leviticus 18:22)
So that was the opinion of Leviticus or the person who wrote Leviticus.
Why should anyone go by the opinion of someone from the dark ages?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Any sexual activity that is outside of scriptural marriage is unacceptable to God. Those who promote things that God has clearly condemned is a dangerous proposition.

This is also the Baha'i Law, with legal marriage being between a Man and Women. The Universal House of Justice is bound to the covenant and thus the statements on this issue by Shoghi Effendi, can not be altered.

The Universal House of Justice has also given further understanding and guidance on this subject, to which we as Baha'i are also bound to consider under the covenant. That covenant was instigated by Baha'u'llah and now includes the explanation on scriptures given by Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi and the Guidance from the Universal House of Justice.

Regards Tony
 
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