Banned from Heaven

Bob the Unbeliever · Sep 20, 2018

InChrist said:
Obviously God did not want robots or the world would not be the way it is with all the wrong choices apart fron His will and the sad, destructive consequences on display. But real love involves choice and that is what God has allowed each of us to have. Those in heaven, as I said already, made the choice to be there and love God. The moment one trust Jesus and is born again the transformation process begins and never ends until one is in eternity. One who knows the love of God and desires to be changed into the image of Christ will have no desire to ever choose anything other.Yet, I think heaven will be filled with endless opportunities for healthy, creative, adventurous, choices which have nothing to do with sin or self-centeredness.

But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 3:18

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Romans 8:28-30

Well. NONE of what you just stated? Addresses the conundrum:

What happens to people who end up in heaven, but remember their closest loved ones, who are nowhere to be found in "paradise"?

Hmmm?

Bob the Unbeliever · Sep 20, 2018

InChrist said:
No God has not failed. Satan is a clear example of a creature trying to be God, who isn't God. Very sad and destructive. But it is a lesson we all need to see and understand. Freedom can be abused.

So, basically, you are saying here that your god was POWERLESS to even convince Satan to mend his ways, and return?

That's a pretty BIG fail, that's what that is! Weak, too.

InChrist · Sep 20, 2018

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Unless, naturally, there is no reciprocation (as in my case) and one eventually learns that "trust in jesus" was 100% misplaced...

I trusted for years, decades even. Then I learned I had been misled...

Oh well. I'm not the only exception to your claim, above, am I?

How am I to know what you mean when you say that your trust was misplaced or you were misled? Maybe you you were presented with a false gospel or false Jesus or the "Christians" around you were fakes or even abusive. I can't really know unless you elaborate. But that's up to you.

Personally, I know that Jesus is completely faithful.

InChrist · Sep 20, 2018

Bob the Unbeliever said:
So, basically, you are saying here that your god was POWERLESS to even convince Satan to mend his ways, and return?

That's a pretty BIG fail, that's what that is! Weak, too.

No I am not saying that God was powerless to convince satan... that is your opinion. I will say that it is a difficult subject to understand and I don't fully understand how Lucifer chose to rebel and become evil. Yet, my understanding is that something happened within himself which grew and grew into evil. The scriptures state that iniquity was found in him. So it was an attitude that Lucifer chose to not only let arise within himself, but he continued to let it fester and grow. I believe it has some connection to the Bible's reference to the "mystery of iniquity".

Yet, the fact that God doesn't want robots and freedom and choice is so important to God, this choice of Lucifer/satan had to be allowed to run it's course. I think this same issue will be seen again after the 1000 reign of Christ.

InChrist · Sep 20, 2018

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Well. NONE of what you just stated? Addresses the conundrum:

What happens to people who end up in heaven, but remember their closest loved ones, who are nowhere to be found in "paradise"?

Hmmm?

Like I said, I am not sure. Maybe there will be a time of grieving and then God will wipe away all tears. But love can't be forced and loved ones can't be forced into heaven, no matter how much we may want them there.

Bob the Unbeliever · Sep 20, 2018

InChrist said:
How am I to know what you mean when you say that your trust was misplaced or you were misled? .

Indeed. I just love it how theists are so quick to denigrate the personal experiences of people such as myself, as if that is going to be ... convincing.

Do you REALLY think belittling me, and what I experienced, is going to change my mind, here?

*sigh*

That's so the opposite of how Jesus approached things... hmmmm..

InChrist said:
Maybe you you were presented with a false gospel or false Jesus or the "Christians" around you were fakes or even abusive. I can't really know unless you elaborate. But that's up to you..

More attempts to belittle what I experienced. It's as if you can't help yourself but to look down on my life experiences.

Sad, really.

InChrist said:
Personally, I know that Jesus is completely faithful.

Good for you. Many-many other folk? Experienced the exact opposite. In fact? There are several websites that I used to frequent, dedicated to people like me, who found nothing but utter FAIL, with respect to Christianity's empty promises...

Bob the Unbeliever · Sep 20, 2018

InChrist said:
No I am not saying that God was powerless to convince satan... that is your opinion..

No--it's hardly opinion. It's observation of your own statements.

The fact you believe your god permitted Satan to do whatever?

Can only mean a couple of things-- none of which are GOOD on the part of your deity.

1) your god was simply too weak to stop Satan
2) your god wasn't too weak, but refused to stop Satan anyway-- meaning your god is complacent with everything Satan did
3) Satan was actually an agent of your god, and acting on god's behalf, following god's exact script to a T.

Which is it?

Bob the Unbeliever · Sep 20, 2018

InChrist said:
Like I said, I am not sure. Maybe there will be a time of grieving and then God will wipe away all tears. But love can't be forced and loved ones can't be forced into heaven, no matter how much we may want them there.

Well, I must applaud you for honesty at least: You do not know.

Refreshing! So many folk who wrestle with this subject, simply dismiss it as un-important, or irrelevant.

At least you recognize it is a Serious Problem within the framework of your beliefs.

InChrist · Sep 20, 2018

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Indeed. I just love it how theists are so quick to denigrate the personal experiences of people such as myself, as if that is going to be ... convincing.

Do you REALLY think belittling me, and what I experienced, is going to change my mind, here?

*sigh*

That's so the opposite of how Jesus approached things... hmmmm..

More attempts to belittle what I experienced. It's as if you can't help yourself but to look down on my life experiences.

Sad, really.

Good for you. Many-many other folk? Experienced the exact opposite. In fact? There are several websites that I used to frequent, dedicated to people like me, who found nothing but utter FAIL, with respect to Christianity's empty promises...

I have no intention of belittling or denigrating you or your personal experiences. If that is how my post came across I apologize. I don't know what you experienced. I would appreciate hearing your experience and have the opportunity to gain some insight or understanding, but it is up to you whether you want to share more about it.

InChrist · Sep 20, 2018

Bob the Unbeliever said:
No--it's hardly opinion. It's observation of your own statements.

The fact you believe your god permitted Satan to do whatever?

Can only mean a couple of things-- none of which are GOOD on the part of your deity.

1) your god was simply too weak to stop Satan
2) your god wasn't too weak, but refused to stop Satan anyway-- meaning your god is complacent with everything Satan did
3) Satan was actually an agent of your god, and acting on god's behalf, following god's exact script to a T.

Which is it?

None of the above.

Of course I don't believe God as Creator is weak and is certainly stronger than satan a created being. I just don't think it is a matter of power that is the issue, nor do I think God who is holy and good is complacent with satan's evil. The scriptures reveal one of God's highest attributes as LOVE. Love cannot be based exercising power. If God created being with the power of choice and desires the response of love, then it’s not a matter of raw power. Love something that comes from within a person's heart/mind. If it’s coerced by force and not from the heart, is it real love? So God has a this situation if He wants to allow freedom and genuine love, which I believe He does. God could slam satan across the mouth and throw him into the bottomless pit and be done with him in an instant, but that wouldn’t change anything. Love is a choice. Satan is the alternative to God's goodness and love.

Jumi · Sep 21, 2018

Salvador said:

It's a cop out to blame something they don't understand for their crimes. It also makes them seem like they're now pardoning themselves.

Why doesn't "darwinism" make other people morally sick like him? Were the Soviets right in dismissing modern biology and "darwinism" in favor of pseudo-science?

Jumi · Sep 21, 2018

InChrist said:
Of course I don't believe God as Creator is weak and is certainly stronger than satan a created being. I just don't think it is a matter of power that is the issue, nor do I think God who is holy and good is complacent with satan's evil.

Indeed if there could be such a being that could oppose God and manipulate people as well as hide God from them, it wouldn't really be monotheism would it? But belief in a somewhat "weaker second god" who somehow is more powerful here than the "stronger first god".

Bob the Unbeliever · Sep 21, 2018

InChrist said:
I have no intention of belittling or denigrating you or your personal experiences. If that is how my post came across I apologize. I don't know what you experienced. I would appreciate hearing your experience and have the opportunity to gain some insight or understanding, but it is up to you whether you want to share more about it.

Well, such a heartfelt comment should not go unrewarded.

However, I'm not really ready to re-open that particular time again. The loss of faith can be ... uncomfortable, while at the same time something of a relief. And, naturally, there is some resentment too.

I just found that jesus/god simply wasn't there as promised when needed. Which caused some deep introspection and realization that it never was--ever. For anyone.

Not unlike the phrase: "It rains on the Just and the Unjust, with equal measure".

Let that sink in a bit, if you would. It goes directly against the statement "Jesus is faithful".

Not really. It only seems that way, to some. That whole selective memory syndrome.

Bob the Unbeliever · Sep 21, 2018

InChrist said:
None of the above..

You may, of course, deny the obvious... but it does not mean it isn't accurate.

InChrist said:
Of course I don't believe God as Creator is weak and is certainly stronger than satan a created being. I just don't think it is a matter of power that is the issue, nor do I think God who is holy and good is complacent with satan's evil. The scriptures reveal one of God's highest attributes as LOVE..

That is absolutely contra-indicated by the very existence of the anti-god, Satan.

It's not loving to permit such a being to have access to humans in any way. It's beyond irresponsible.

And for a being that is supposedly all powerful? It's absolutely evil.

InChrist said:
Love cannot be based exercising power..

That simply isn't true. Does a parent exercise his or her power over their children, so as to prevent them from coming to harm?

If a parent did NOT do that? We would take away their parental rights, immediately, and possibly send them to jail.

InChrist said:
If God created being with the power of choice and desires the response of love, then it’s not a matter of raw power. .

See above. It IS possible to have something between absolutely slavery and absolutely permit an EVIL BEING FREE REIGN. The bible clearly states Satan has FREE REIGN OVER EARTH.

Ooops! That's not love at all! That's either WEAK or DELIBERATE MALICE.

There is no "none of the above" here!

InChrist said:
Love something that comes from within a person's heart/mind. If it’s coerced by force and not from the heart, is it real love? .

See above. Is a parent allowed to prevent their children from playing in traffic? Is forcing children to NOT play in traffic an example of coerced love?

YES OR NO?

InChrist said:
So God has a this situation if He wants to allow freedom and genuine love, which I believe He does. God could slam satan across the mouth and throw him into the bottomless pit and be done with him in an instant, but that wouldn’t change anything. Love is a choice. Satan is the alternative to God's goodness and love.

You are 100% ignoring the Elephant In The Room-- your bible doesn't even agree!

Allowing this Satan monster FREE REIGN (as the bible states-- does not matter if it's only temporary-- LIFE is only temporary) is an EVIL ACT.

That is the opposite of "loving".

viole · Sep 21, 2018

PopeADope said:
Let's just say there is a heaven as most Christians and Muslims believe.

If you had a loved one who never made it, (a son or daughter perhaps) who was permanently banned, would it still be heaven for you?

Since Christianity is ultimately an exercise of narcissism, then probably yes. Who cares if my kids burn forever if I am safe with Jesus here?

Ciao

- viole

InChrist · Sep 21, 2018

Bob the Unbeliever said:
See above. It IS possible to have something between absolutely slavery and absolutely permit an EVIL BEING FREE REIGN. The bible clearly states Satan has FREE REIGN OVER EARTH.

.

I don't have time to respond to everything in your post right now, but the Bible clearly does not say satan has free reign. Satan must get permission from God first and his actions are limited, restrained, or prevented by God in many ways.

Bob the Unbeliever · Sep 21, 2018

InChrist said:
I don't have time to respond to everything in your post right now, but the Bible clearly does not say satan has free reign. Satan must get permission from God first and his actions are limited, restrained, or prevented by God in many ways.

Meaning? That your god is absolutely the one responsible for any and all things Satan does.

Satan is merely god's agent..

InChrist · Sep 21, 2018

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Meaning? That your god is absolutely the one responsible for any and all things Satan does.

Satan is merely god's agent..

From your perspective that may be how you see it, but is it possible that from God's perspective there may be a good reason for allowing satan to exist and do what he does?

Spiderman · Sep 21, 2018

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Meaning? That your god is absolutely the one responsible for any and all things Satan does.

Satan is merely god's agent..

Absolutely true about Satan being God's agent. God knew what Satan would do before he ever made him. If God didn't like what Satan does, he could restrain him or never make him in the first place!

InChrist said:
From your perspective that may be how you see it, but is it possible that from God's perspective there may be a good reason for allowing satan to exist and do what he does?

Bob the Unbeliever · Sep 21, 2018

InChrist said:
From your perspective that may be how you see it, but is it possible that from God's perspective there may be a good reason for allowing satan to exist and do what he does?

Morality isn't that complicated, really. The consequences of one's actions should be the responsibility of the being doing the action-- or giving permission to do the action.

You cannot spin raw evil into something NOT evil.

Infinite Torture is the same as Infinite Evil.

That's the problem with using infinite torture... you cannot spin it into anything but what it is.

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