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how human was Jesus?

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
First of all, thank you for your response. I agree with what you said about the subject. There are some clarifications I would make about the later portion of your comments, regarding myself. Firstly, while I do agree that much of our beliefs are the same, I wouldn't go so far as to say I post as if I were a JW. I know what you mean, and it's true to an extent, but at the same time there are times when I post quite differently. I sometimes use language and an approach that the JW's wouldn't approve of. When commenting on the subject of JW's I always make a point to express that I'm not one and never have been so as to avoid confusion, especially given that my approach can sometimes be more . . . colorful.

I disagree that I defame the governing body or any branch or member of the JW's. I respect and admire them, but at the same time may differ only in that I might be critical of some of their teachings and practices, especially of the past.

I realize that the JW's see things very concretely, especially regarding those in the truth and the world, but I may not agree with that line of thinking. I don't think that I have any more of a foothold in that world than any JW would, since it is impossible to completely remove oneself from the world. I would agree that I may appear more worldly due to my language, and that some of the things I do a JW wouldn't, like video games, entertainment, and things of that nature, but I always thought that they took that a little too far. Even when I was studying with them.

And the one thing I do is smoking cigarettes. I'm trying to stop that.

I wasn't really expecting any JW's to support me, as such, in the threads about gods, but I was surprised that none supported, or if called for, challenged what was being said.
I don’t follow all the Witnesses on here, and I wasn’t really following this thread. If you’d like me to see some post, just use the “at symbol” with my username, and I’ll get it.
 
Jesus performs all sorts of things, that average or even beyond average being could not do. This is throughout the New Testament, and, even begins with HIS LITERAL INCARNATION, into Deity-man form, via Mary.
So, the idea that Jesus was only mystically gifted, makes no sense. It isn't the narrative, except for some manner of 'humanizing', that itself becomes vague.

I don't believe that Jesus, was made "fully human", on the cross. And in fact, Jesus tells us, that HE RAISES Himself, with co'operation from the Abba.

This means, that Jesus, was never "fully human", not God, which doesn't make sense, anyway, as even with part human nature, Jesus is a demi-god...which, traditionally, there are actually, only gods, and non'gods, not 'demi'gods', as in some other religions.[/QU
Jesus performs all sorts of things, that average or even beyond average being could not do. This is throughout the New Testament, and, even begins with HIS LITERAL INCARNATION, into Deity-man form, via Mary.
So, the idea that Jesus was only mystically gifted, makes no sense. It isn't the narrative, except for some manner of 'humanizing', that itself becomes vague.

I don't believe that Jesus, was made "fully human", on the cross. And in fact, Jesus tells us, that HE RAISES Himself, with co'operation from the Abba.

This means, that Jesus, was never "fully human", not God, which doesn't make sense, anyway, as even with part human nature, Jesus is a demi-god...which, traditionally, there are actually, only gods, and non'gods, not 'demi'gods', as in some other religions.
None of these verses say that Jesus is God. They do not even imply that God became his own created creature to save mankind. If you understand the mechanics of the ransom, you might see how ridiculous that assumption is. Do you know what the role of a redeemer was in Israel?



The scriptures do not agree with you. Jesus was 100% human. He came from heaven because he existed as the very first creation of his Father. (Revelation 3:14; Colossians 1:15) The ransom demanded the offering of a perfect life to buy back what Adam lost for his children. Adam paid for his own sin with his own life but there was no one to offer his perfect life to redeem his offspring. That is why Jesus became a sinless human child...he became a 'kinsman' who could pay for the release of Adam's children. All he needed to be was Adam's equivalent....not God. That would be like someone demanding a ransom of $60,000 for the release of a hostage and then someone paying the kidnapper $600,000,000,000!



Yes, the scriptures say all that about Jesus as he was born and raised by his devout Jewish parents....but nowhere does Jesus say that he is God. If you can find me one scripture that has him admitting that I'd like to see it. If you can find one scripture that calls Jesus "God the Son", I would also like to see that.

John 1:3 is just confirming what Paul wrote at Colossians 1:16-17...."For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (NASB)

The son is the agency "through" which all things were created. But he is not the Creator. He is the fabricator of what God produced in the beginning. (Genesis 1:1)

I think st paul knows a little bit more than me or you


In 2 Timothy 3:16 , Paul states, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness." And in John 1 the scripture Says Jesus is God.
 
None of these verses say that Jesus is God. They do not even imply that God became his own created creature to save mankind. If you understand the mechanics of the ransom, you might see how ridiculous that assumption is. Do you know what the role of a redeemer was in Israel?



The scriptures do not agree with you. Jesus was 100% human. He came from heaven because he existed as the very first creation of his Father. (Revelation 3:14; Colossians 1:15) The ransom demanded the offering of a perfect life to buy back what Adam lost for his children. Adam paid for his own sin with his own life but there was no one to offer his perfect life to redeem his offspring. That is why Jesus became a sinless human child...he became a 'kinsman' who could pay for the release of Adam's children. All he needed to be was Adam's equivalent....not God. That would be like someone demanding a ransom of $60,000 for the release of a hostage and then someone paying the kidnapper $600,000,000,000!



Yes, the scriptures say all that about Jesus as he was born and raised by his devout Jewish parents....but nowhere does Jesus say that he is God. If you can find me one scripture that has him admitting that I'd like to see it. If you can find one scripture that calls Jesus "God the Son", I would also like to see that.

John 1:3 is just confirming what Paul wrote at Colossians 1:16-17...."For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (NASB)

The son is the agency "through" which all things were created. But he is not the Creator. He is the fabricator of what God produced in the beginning. (Genesis 1:1)


we are bought with G
 
Jesus is GOD =====we are bought with GODS own blood Acts 20:28
doubting Thomas confession TO JESUS and Jesus did not repudiate it ===== MY Lord and my GOD said Thomas..no longer doubting John 20:28
you must honor Jesus JUST AS THEY HONOR THE Father John 5:23
JESUS HAS A NAME EVEN ABOVE GOD THE FATHERS NAME PHILLIPIANS 2:9-12

ALL THE FULLNESS OF GOD was pleased to dwell in Jesus.. Colossians 2:9

God the Father calls him self ( Iam ) exodus 3:14

Jesus call him self God ( Iam) JOHN 8:58

stop being a doubting Thomas! and confess to Jesus you are my Lord and my God John 20:28

and there are many other verses also.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I think st paul knows a little bit more than me or you

I have no doubt that he does...that's why he calls Jesus a creation of his Father in Colossians 1:15.

In 2 Timothy 3:16 , Paul states, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness." And in John 1 the scripture Says Jesus is God.

John 1:1 says no such thing. If you read it in Greek it isn't saying what you have been led to believe.

Jesus is GOD =====we are bought with GODS own blood Acts 20:28

God doesn't have blood. We are bought with the blood of God's son.

doubting Thomas confession TO JESUS and Jesus did not repudiate it ===== MY Lord and my GOD said Thomas..no longer doubting John 20:28

An expression of surprise from someone expressing a lack of faith hardly makes a doctrine....but Jesus was "theos" to his disciples.....he just wasn't "ho theos". This is what John 1:1 says. It is possible to be "a god" (a mighty one) without being "the God". (the Almighty one) You just have to understand what "theos" means in Greek and why it isn't saying that Jesus is God Almighty.

you must honor Jesus JUST AS THEY HONOR THE Father John 5:23

In context, again this is not saying what you think it says.....

"For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." (NASB)

If Jesus is God, how does the Father love part of himself? How does the Father show the son all the things that he is doing? How will the Father show him greater works? How does one part of God give himself anything? Does God "send" part of himself to act as a servant? It's just nonsense.

JESUS HAS A NAME EVEN ABOVE GOD THE FATHERS NAME PHILLIPIANS 2:9-12

Philippians is another scripture that makes no sense if you are using it to prove that Jesus is God.
Phillipians 2:5-11...
"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (NASB)

Jesus "existed in God's form" before being born as a human child. What "form" is that? The Bible says that God is a spirit, so Jesus existed in spirit form too, just like all the other creatures who inhabit the heavenly realm. He did NOT see 'equality with God something to be grasped'.

When he became a human he took the form of a "bond servant"...and he "humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death".
To whom was Jesus obedient if he was God? If he was a servant, who was his Master?

Upon his return to heaven, he was given "a name which is above every name". If he was God, he already had a name that was above every name. No one has a higher name than Jehovah. (Psalm 83:18 KJV)
All will honor the son and "every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father". If Jesus was God then the glory would go equally to the son.

You really need to read scripture and understand what it says....not what you think it says. You are parroting off the teachings of the church, not the teachings of the Bible. I wish you could see the difference.

ALL THE FULLNESS OF GOD was pleased to dwell in Jesus.. Colossians 2:9

Does this say that Jesus is God? How does "he fullness of God dwell in Jesus"?

Colossians 118-20 says...
"He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself".

Jesus' death and resurrection resulted in a reward for his faithfulness in carrying out his mission successfully. He "comes to have first place in everything"....how can that be?.... if he is God then he already has first place. It was because the Father wanted to imbue Jesus with his spirit that he was able to do what was required of him as Messiah. Through Jesus everything will be reconciled to God. If Jesus is God, that makes no sense.

God the Father calls him self ( Iam ) exodus 3:14

Jesus call him self God ( Iam) JOHN 8:58

No he didn't. Read Exodus 3:13-15 in the Jewish Tanach.

"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"
God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"
And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God ( יְהֹוָ֞ה ) of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation."


Shemot - Exodus - Chapter 3 (Parshah Shemot)

You will see that God's name never meant "I AM" in the first place. It means "I Will Be". That breaks any connection to John 8:58.
Jesus was answering a question about his age, not his status. He was telling the Jews that before Abraham was born he existed.
All Jesus ever called himself was "the Son of God".

stop being a doubting Thomas! and confess to Jesus you are my Lord and my God John 20:28

and there are many other verses also.

Oh please do some study and see that your take on these things is in error, taught to you by a corrupt church system that lost the plot a very long time ago. I am not a doubting Thomas...I am an educated Bible student and teacher of 48 years....do some original language studies and see for yourself that the trinity is a blasphemous doctrine that has the majority of people worshipping the wrong God. (Exodus 20:3) Why do you think Jesus said that "few" are on the road to life? The majority are going in the opposite direction. :( (Matthew 7:21-23)
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Jesus performs all sorts of things, that average or even beyond average being could not do. This is throughout the New Testament, and, even begins with HIS LITERAL INCARNATION, into Deity-man form, via Mary.
So, the idea that Jesus was only mystically gifted, makes no sense. It isn't the narrative, except for some manner of 'humanizing', that itself becomes vague.

I don't believe that Jesus, was made "fully human", on the cross. And in fact, Jesus tells us, that HE RAISES Himself, with co'operation from the Abba.

This means, that Jesus, was never "fully human", not God, which doesn't make sense, anyway, as even with part human nature, Jesus is a demi-god...which, traditionally, there are actually, only gods, and non'gods, not 'demi'gods', as in some other religions.
IMV, he had to be fully human because he had to defeat the Serpent on the same grounds that Adam was to defeat sin legally. Since God had said from the beginning that dominion on the earth was through man, The Word had to be fully man so as to not violate the stated spiritual laws.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
John 1:1 says no such thing. If you read it in Greek it isn't saying what you have been led to believe.
Actually, it does. And he remains the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.

Jesus "existed in God's form" before being born as a human child. What "form" is that? The Bible says that God is a spirit, so Jesus existed in spirit form too, just like all the other creatures who inhabit the heavenly realm. He did NOT see 'equality with God something to be grasped'.

Actually, no.

'Being in very nature God' means just that - he was God and he emptied himself of his God attributes.

Quoting scripture that talks about him being man after he emptied himself doesn't support your position. it confirms ours.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Jesus performs all sorts of things, that average or even beyond average being could not do. This is throughout the New Testament, and, even begins with HIS LITERAL INCARNATION, into Deity-man form, via Mary.
So, the idea that Jesus was only mystically gifted, makes no sense. It isn't the narrative, except for some manner of 'humanizing', that itself becomes vague.

I don't believe that Jesus, was made "fully human", on the cross. And in fact, Jesus tells us, that HE RAISES Himself, with co'operation from the Abba.

This means, that Jesus, was never "fully human", not God, which doesn't make sense, anyway, as even with part human nature, Jesus is a demi-god...which, traditionally, there are actually, only gods, and non'gods, not 'demi'gods', as in some other religions.

The Bible says God was veiled in a tent, as we are, spirit within flesh, indeed, Jesus was born on Tabernacles, the feast where people reside in tents.

Why over-complicate what the Bible states? Jesus is God, and lived as a man. By the way, to deny either the divinity or humanity of Jesus Christ is heresy.
 
You're saying, then, that we have strong grounds for concluding that the reports cannot be true.
That's only if you go with Luke / Matthew. Mark says that Jesus was human until his baptism, and only then did Yahweh adopt him as his son (in exactly the manner Yahweh had earlier adopted David as his son ─ see Psalm 2:7, Mark 1:9-11 and Acts 13:33.)
Jesus says repeatedly that he has no power of his own, but only the power that Yahweh lets him have:
John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”
John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”
John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me
John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”
John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”​
and more.
Really? Please quote me that part.

Jesus constantly denies he was God. He never once says he's God, See the quotes above and:
Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;
Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”
Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”
John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​
To which Paul adds:
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ,
Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
And there's also:
1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,​

It may be worth remembering that the Trinity doctrine wasn't invented until the third or fourth century, to solve the political problems of trying to elevate Jesus to god status while avoiding the jibes of the Jews that Christians were polytheists like the pagans.

And that the Trinity doctrine claims that Father, Son and Ghost are distinct persons but each of them separately is 100% of God, which adds up to 300% of God which means three gods, which the doctrine denies. In doing so, even the RCC and Piscos/ Anglicans acknowledge that the doctrine is thus 'a mystery in the strict sense' which 'can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed'. It will occur to you about now that no objective test will distinguish such a 'mystery' from pure nonsense.

(For example, if Jesus is 100% of God then Jesus is 100% of his own father, and so is Yahweh and so is the Ghost. So not just the Father but all three have an equal claim to the title 'Father'. And then we have the silliness of Jesus on the cross saying 'Me, me, why have I forsaken me?')
You're saying, then, that we have strong grounds for concluding that the reports cannot be true.
That's only if you go with Luke / Matthew. Mark says that Jesus was human until his baptism, and only then did Yahweh adopt him as his son (in exactly the manner Yahweh had earlier adopted David as his son ─ see Psalm 2:7, Mark 1:9-11 and Acts 13:33.)
Jesus says repeatedly that he has no power of his own, but only the power that Yahweh lets him have:
John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”
John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”
John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me
John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”
John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”​
and more.
Really? Please quote me that part.

Jesus constantly denies he was God. He never once says he's God, See the quotes above and:
Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;
Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”
Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”
John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​
To which Paul adds:
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ,
Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
And there's also:
1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,​

It may be worth remembering that the Trinity doctrine wasn't invented until the third or fourth century, to solve the political problems of trying to elevate Jesus to god status while avoiding the jibes of the Jews that Christians were polytheists like the pagans.

And that the Trinity doctrine claims that Father, Son and Ghost are distinct persons but each of them separately is 100% of God, which adds up to 300% of God which means three gods, which the doctrine denies. In doing so, even the RCC and Piscos/ Anglicans acknowledge that the doctrine is thus 'a mystery in the strict sense' which 'can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed'. It will occur to you about now that no objective test will distinguish such a 'mystery' from pure nonsense.

(For example, if Jesus is 100% of God then Jesus is 100% of his own father, and so is Yahweh and so is the Ghost. So not just the Father but all three have an equal claim to the title 'Father'. And then we have the silliness of Jesus on the cross saying 'Me, me, why have I forsaken me?')
. The passage you quote .Are just Jesus humbling himself for a little while Hebrews 2:9 he came down to live his Fathers law Perfectly for us . All the passages you quote just tell us Jesus humbled himself for our sake! Of course You cant understand theTrinity . One God in three person of the same Essance .Your God fits easly into your mind making your godeven smaller than your mind .And you want us go believe in god lessed thzn your mind No thanks.lol
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Jesus performs all sorts of things, that average or even beyond average being could not do. This is throughout the New Testament, and, even begins with HIS LITERAL INCARNATION, into Deity-man form, via Mary.
So, the idea that Jesus was only mystically gifted, makes no sense. It isn't the narrative, except for some manner of 'humanizing', that itself becomes vague.

I don't believe that Jesus, was made "fully human", on the cross. And in fact, Jesus tells us, that HE RAISES Himself, with co'operation from the Abba.

This means, that Jesus, was never "fully human", not God, which doesn't make sense, anyway, as even with part human nature, Jesus is a demi-god...which, traditionally, there are actually, only gods, and non'gods, not 'demi'gods', as in some other religions.
The bible is not CNN, FOX NEWS, OR A COMIC BOOK as you insist it is. That's all a mental disorder. Even if its functioning goint to work daily etc. Its unhealthy. Atheists also believe its a comic book cnn or fox news as well so its not just religion that has a problem.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
. The passage you quote .Are just Jesus humbling himself for a little while Hebrews 2:9 he came down to live his Fathers law Perfectly for us .
So, you say, every one of those quotes is a lie, a deception, by Jesus? That's an interesting take. What test will tell us which of Jesus' sayings is honest, and which false? If there's no such test, then we'd be silly to believe any of it, no?

And by the way, Paul never once says Jesus is God either ─ check the quotes, and you'll find he's Lord to Yahweh's God ─ the ranks are expressly distinguished.
Of course You cant understand theTrinity . One God in three person of the same Essance .
You seem to be conveniently forgetting a number of things. First, as I said, the doctrine states that each of the three persons is wholly distinct from the other two AND each of them is 100% of God, giving a total of 300% meaning three gods.

Second, the churches themselves had to invent the phrase 'a mystery in the strict sense' as a euphemism for the nonsense that, instead of three gods, 1+1+1=1, so even the churches know they have a chunky problem.

Third, you didn't tell me why the Father should be called the Father when Jesus and the Ghost are exactly as entitled to that title as the Father is.

I look forward to your clarification of these questions (and don't forget to tell me the test for which of Jesus' statements aren't lies).
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Jesus pre'exists His incarnation. He tells us, that He does this, the resurrection, and it's in co'operation, with the Abba. This means, "fully man" in the sense of just like man, cannot be the case, nor, a after crucifixion, resurrection, without previous knowing that He is going to do that.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Matthew 27:40

Matthew 27:62-63


Jesus was talking about the Resurrection, as they realized, later.

Destroying the actual Temple, makes no sense.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Jesus is GOD =====we are bought with GODS own blood Acts 20:28

Some translations say “His own blood”, some say “blood of His Son”, a couple even say “blood of his own”. Since John 1:18 says “no man has ever seen God”.... which rendering do you think is accurate? Which POV doesn’t cause a contradiction?

(Did you never hear a father say regarding his son: “He’s my blood”? I have.)

There’s also this: “that very important early manuscripts do not read "Church of God" but instead have "Church of the Lord." “ — excerpt from The Trinity Delusion: Acts 20:28

doubting Thomas confession TO JESUS and Jesus did not repudiate it ===== MY Lord and my GOD said Thomas..no longer doubting John 20:28

What was Thomas’ doubt over? That Jesus was God, or that Jesus was resurrected? How would you react, to seeing someone you loved again, after their being resurrected? You’d probably say, “My God”!

you must honor Jesus JUST AS THEY HONOR THE Father John 5:23

Yes, certainly....honor. That’s not worship.

JESUS HAS A NAME EVEN ABOVE GOD THE FATHERS NAME PHILLIPIANS 2:9-12

This is a shame! Your trinitarian POV already denigrates the 1st Commandment (Exodus 20:1-5); now by trying to put Jesus over his Father, you’re trying to negate it, ie., erase it, altogether!
Read vs.9 again....”God exalted him”. Couldn’t Jesus exalt himself? Really, if Jesus was God, wouldn’t he already be exalted?


and there are many other verses also.

Only if you disregard the context.
Christendom has had 1500 years to twist passages, to seemingly support this false doctrine. Fortunately, they haven’t been able to alter context for the most part.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Jesus performs all sorts of things, that average or even beyond average being could not do. This is throughout the New Testament, and, even begins with HIS LITERAL INCARNATION, into Deity-man form, via Mary.
So, the idea that Jesus was only mystically gifted, makes no sense. It isn't the narrative, except for some manner of 'humanizing', that itself becomes vague.

I don't believe that Jesus, was made "fully human", on the cross. And in fact, Jesus tells us, that HE RAISES Himself, with co'operation from the Abba.

This means, that Jesus, was never "fully human", not God, which doesn't make sense, anyway, as even with part human nature, Jesus is a demi-god...which, traditionally, there are actually, only gods, and non'gods, not 'demi'gods', as in some other religions.

Can you explain exactly what part of Jesus was human and what part of Jesus was not human.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Actually, it does. And he remains the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.

You know I have to disagree Ken. :D The trinity has way more scripture against it than it has only inference supporting it. The churches just do not want to acknowledge them. This doctrine did not exist when Jesus walked the earth. The other Abrahamic faiths have no trinity, yet trinities of gods exist throughout paganism. It's an adoption, a deception designed by the sower of the "weeds" to get people to shift their worship to the wrong god. How well it has worked! This is a violation of the first commandment. (Exodus 20:3)....a violation of which meant death.

The word “alpha” is the name for the first letter of the Greek alphabet, whereas the term “omega” designates the last letter of the Greek alphabet. Hence, in itself, the title “the Alpha and the Omega” conveys the idea of the start and the finish or completion of a thing. The personage who is so designated would, therefore, be viewed as the beginner of certain things and the one who brings these things to a successful conclusion.

Isaiah 55:11 forcefully this emphasizes the fact that whatever Jehovah God purposes will be brought to a successful finish! He accomplishes his purpose through the ministry of his son.

In the Scriptures, only the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ is spoken of as “the Lord God” and as the “Almighty.” Jesus Christ even refers to his Father as “my God.” (John 20:17) He stated that whilst still on earth after his resurrection. But what about when he returned to heaven?
Jesus said....
"The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name." (Revelation 3:12)

Why would Jesus call his Father "my God" in heaven, if Jesus is God? :confused:

And Jesus has a "new name".....his Father, YHWH has only one name by which he was to be known forever. (Exodus 3:15 in the Tanach lists the Tetragrammaton in that verse.) The titles by which Jehovah is known describe his attributes as Universal Sovereign.
Unlike his Father, Jesus has various names depending on the role he is playing at the time.

Paul clearly stated that they had "one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ"....there was no doubt in their minds about who was God. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

Actually, no.

'Being in very nature God' means just that - he was God and he emptied himself of his God attributes.

Quoting scripture that talks about him being man after he emptied himself doesn't support your position. it confirms ours.

Where does it say that Jesus was "the very nature of God"?....and what does that even mean?

According to the Bible, Jesus was a willing participant in the outworking of Jehovah's purpose. He had a pre-human existence as we all know, but in what capacity? Voluntarily 'emptying' or divesting himself of his former heavenly glory to take on human flesh was something he did willingly because of his love for the creation he had shared in creating. (John 1:3)

John 3:16, often heard in church highlights the fact the God loved the world (humanity) so much that he "sent his only begotten son" to offer his perfect life for us. Do you see that the relationship is not equal. One who sends a servant is a Master....one who has authority over another. Jesus is called a servant. (Acts 3:13; Acts 4:30) If Jesus was God, then how is it possible that equals can be subservient to one another? He would not have need to be "sent". He would have come of his own will....yet Jesus said "not my will, but yours be done". Can one part of God have a different will to another equal part of himself?

Those not indoctrinated into this belief can see that the argument as ridiculous...any Bible student reading the whole of scripture instead of the cherry picked bits that "infer" a trinity, will see that Jesus as a Jew, did not see himself as God, or equal in any way....that would have been the ultimate blasphemy!

This is not rocket science, surely...? :shrug:
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
You know I have to disagree Ken. :D The trinity has way more scripture against it than it has only inference supporting it. The churches just do not want to acknowledge them. This doctrine did not exist when Jesus walked the earth. The other Abrahamic faiths have no trinity, yet trinities of gods exist throughout paganism. It's an adoption, a deception designed by the sower of the "weeds" to get people to shift their worship to the wrong god. How well it has worked! This is a violation of the first commandment. (Exodus 20:3)....a violation of which meant death.
Deeje, I really appreciate you and you do have so much good to add. :D But I can't help it if you are not right in everything! :D (just pulling your leg)

Of course I would disagree with your position and it has more than enough scripture to support the position. You remind me of the Jews who read the scriptures correctly about the reigning Messiah but don't see the suffering Messiah. Likewise, yes, there are many scriptures while Jesus was in the flesh that would support your position but it will be at the expense of all the scripture that says otherwise.

But, as far as the violation which meant death, I would simply hold fast to the reality to Paul's statement of "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." I am in the throne of Grace and not under the ministration of condemnation.

The word “alpha” is the name for the first letter of the Greek alphabet, whereas the term “omega” designates the last letter of the Greek alphabet. Hence, in itself, the title “the Alpha and the Omega” conveys the idea of the start and the finish or completion of a thing. The personage who is so designated would, therefore, be viewed as the beginner of certain things and the one who brings these things to a successful conclusion.
And it also is the designation of The Father as well as The Son.

In the Scriptures, only the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ is spoken of as “the Lord God” and as the “Almighty.” Jesus Christ even refers to his Father as “my God.” (John 20:17) He stated that whilst still on earth after his resurrection. But what about when he returned to heaven?
.
Again... you continue to use the scriptures of who he was "in the flesh" after he emptied himself at the expense awho he was before. Apples and oranges.

When he went back to The Father, he said Glorify me with the glory that I once had with you. God's glory is only God's.

Why would Jesus call his Father "my God" in heaven, if Jesus is God?
Again... you continue to use the scriptures of who he was "in the flesh" after he emptied himself at the expense awho he was before. Apples and oranges.

Where does it say that Jesus was "the very nature of God"?....and what does that even mean?
Philippians 2.

Philippians 2:6 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

Those not indoctrinated into this belief can see that the argument as ridiculous...any Bible student reading the whole of scripture instead of the cherry picked bits that "infer" a trinity, will see that Jesus as a Jew, did not see himself as God, or equal in any way....that would have been the ultimate blasphemy!

LoL... of course, the question is who indoctrinated who and who is cherry picking at the expense of other scriptures.

This is not rocket science, surely...? :shrug:
exactly...

But be blessed... I know you love God.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
IMV, he had to be fully human because he had to defeat the Serpent on the same grounds that Adam was to defeat sin legally. Since God had said from the beginning that dominion on the earth was through man, The Word had to be fully man so as to not violate the stated spiritual laws.
I believe there are some semantics, here.
Acts of the Apostles 4:30
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Actually, it does.

Are you referring to John 1:1?

Highly acclaimed scholar and Roman Catholic priest John J. McKenzie, S.J. (a trinitarian), in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his. Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.) (New York, 1965), p. 317. (Italics and bold type are mine.)

Why does he say this?

Because of Koine Greek grammar regarding the usage of definite articles (or lack of) in sentence location.

In his article “Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1,” Philip B. Harner said that such clauses as the one in John 1:1, “with an anarthrous predicate preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative in meaning. They indicate that the logos has the nature of theos.” He suggests: “Perhaps the clause could be translated, ‘the Word had the same nature as God.’” (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87) Thus, in this text, the fact that the word the·osʹ in its second occurrence is without the definite article (ho) and is placed before the verb in the sentence in Greek is significant. Interestingly, translators that insist on rendering John 1:1, “The Word was God,” do not hesitate to use the indefinite article (a, an) in their rendering of other passages where a singular anarthrous predicate noun occurs before the verb. Thus at John 6:70, The Jerusalem Bible and King James both refer to Judas Iscariot as “a devil,” and at John 9:17 they describe Jesus as “a prophet.”

Other versions are in accord with this:

▪ 1808: "and the Word was a god" – Thomas Belsham The New Testament, in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.

▪ 1822: "and the Word was a god" – The New Testament in Greek and English (A. Kneeland, 1822.)

▪ 1829: "and the Word was a god" – The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829)

▪ 1863: "and the Word was a god" – A Literal Translation of the New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863)

▪ 1864: "and a god was the Word" – The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London (left hand column interlinear reading)

▪ 1867: "In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God" – The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible

▪ 1879: "and the Word was a god" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979)

▪ 1885: "and the Word was a god" – Concise Commentary on The Holy Bible (R. Young, 1885)

▪ 1911: "and the Word was a god" – The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911)

▪ 1935: "and the Word was divine" – The Bible: An American Translation, by John M. P. Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed, Chicago

▪ 1955: "so the Word was divine" – The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield, Aberdeen.

▪ 1958: "and the Word was a god" – The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed (J. L. Tomanec, 1958)

▪ 1966, 2001: "...and he was the same as God" – The Good News Bible

▪ 1970, 1989: "...and what God was, the Word was" – The Revised English Bible

▪ 1975 "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word" – Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany

▪ 1975: "and the Word was a god" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975);

▪ 1978: "and godlike sort was the Logos" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin.

When you contemplate the context of the Apostle John's words...if Jesus was God, if that's what John meant....why would he imply Jesus was with God? (He should have just said "the Father".) And a few verses later, why would he write, "No man has ever seen God"? Was he wanting to be deliberately ambiguous?

Only a faulty interpretation, makes the context ambiguous.

A well-known encyclopedia once described the Trinity as "an inscrutable mystery". (Yet, supporters still try to describe it.)

Thank goodness, as Jesus said @ John 4:22-23, "we worship what we know...the true worshippers will worship the Father" -- only, as commanded at Exodus 20:1-5.
 
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