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serve the Creator ?

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
How does any of this serve one to `serve` the `creator` ?
How does this `creator` teach the value of what is good or bad ?
How does one know the difference between love or evil ?
What example is given by the `creator` ?
Do we have to use Adam and Eve as examples ?
Or are we stuck with ourselves ?
Just a little thought.
 
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`mud

Just old
Premium Member
Are there other ways to say that `beliefs` are "beliefs" ?
Those impressions in one's mind are yours,
most influences will not work.
To change one's belief is to change one's relation with life.
The Earth's Stuff will influence one a little,
but beliefs depend on life itself.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
If you are going to use scripture then you should understand that Nebuchadnezzar was his servant also He told Israel many times of His manipulation of nations for His purposes. Spirit masters flesh.

even the book of Job shows who serves who.
That appears to be correct.
Spirit is greater than flesh, and masters flesh.
So apparently we have good spirit as a master, and bad spirit as a master, and I believe we also have the choice of which master we fight "tooth and nail" against, or which we submit to. Ephesians 6:10-18; 1 Peter 5:6
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
How does any of this serve one to `serve` the `creator` ?
How does this `creator` teach the value of what is good or bad ?
How does one know the difference love or evil ?
What example is given by the `creator` ?
Do we have to use Adam and Eve as examples ?
Or are we stuck with ourselves ?
Just a little thought.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. :)
They sound like questions though.
Perhaps there are reasonable answers. ;)
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
An addendum to the `belief` post would be:
The influence of one's parents and their Pastors or Priests.
~
hey nPeace,
The answers are all around us, found in the Stuff of Life.
You got a hotdog to share, I got some beer ?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
An addendum to the `belief` post would be:
The influence of one's parents and their Pastors or Priests.
~
hey nPeace,
The answers are all around us, found in the Stuff of Life.
You got a hotdog to share, I got some beer ?
animated-smileys-eating-drinking-052.gif
We can always pretend. Go light on the beer.
animated-smileys-drinking-102.gif
There is no need to hasten our life.
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
One a day...whether I need it or not !
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
well then where do "morals" come from? what is moral according to who or what? why would one's judgement of what is good and evil be better or more superior then another's? unless one has the power to enforce it.
We get our morals in two principal ways ─ from our evolution as gregarious mammals, and from our culture, education and experience. We come equipped with a conscience ─ a sense that certain statements we make apply to everyone, and aren't just our opinion, though of course the statements may vary from person to person ─ and mirror neurons, the ability to see someone else's actions or situation through our own eyes, the basis for sympathy and empathy, and at the least a contributor to altruism. We're also born with moral tendencies, as experiments with children even too young to talk have shown: dislike of the person who harms, approval of fairness and reciprocity, respect for authority, loyalty to the group and a sense of self-worth / virtue through self-denial; and later, strong instincts for child protection and nurture. Other moral judgments ─ things for which others may judge us, such as whether and if so when you may fart, how you should dress, whether a wedding involves a dowry, a brideprice or something else or nothing, the 'correct' way to eat, and so on, are behaviors and values we learn from our surroundings.

So all human cultures have the genetic moral tendencies I mentioned, which are beneficial to keeping a tribe internally cooperative and reasonably harmonious, and also for organizing tribal joint action where needed; and the rest is as may be.
 
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`mud

Just old
Premium Member
hey blü 2,
Nice post, tremendous descriptive analogy of `Life`
I call it `Stuff`, it comes with `Life`, and goes out with death.
Again...really good post !
 

DPMartin

Member
We get our morals in two principal ways ─ from our evolution as gregarious mammals, and from our culture, education and experience. We come equipped with a conscience ─ a sense that certain statements we make apply to everyone, and aren't just our opinion, though of course the statements may vary from person to person ─ and mirror neurons, the ability to see someone else's actions or situation through our own eyes, the basis for sympathy and empathy, and at the least a contributor to altruism. We're also born with moral tendencies, as experiments with children even too young to talk have shown: dislike of the person who harms, approval of fairness and reciprocity, respect for authority, loyalty to the group and a sense of self-worth / virtue through self-denial; and later, strong instincts for child protection and nurture. Moral judgments ─ things for which others may judge us, such as whether and if so when you may fart, how you should dress, whether a wedding involves a dowry, a brideprice or something else or nothing, the 'correct' way to eat, and so on, are behaviors and values we learn from our surroundings.

So all human cultures have the genetic moral tendencies I mentioned, which are beneficial to keeping a tribe internally cooperative and reasonably harmonious, and also for organizing tribal joint action where needed; and the rest is as may be.


If all that were true (you didn’t copy and past that did you?) then all living things would have a set of morals and anyone knows animals have no set of moral only fear of mutual harm. Animals that take care of their young, the life is of them, and some species don’t even do that.

The only being in the flesh concerned with morals and what is and isn’t moral is man. Why you say. Because man can come into agreement. The agreement is the moral, right and wrong. Without an agreement, how one treats another isn’t immoral, or moral. Unless they agree how one is to treat the other in work in play in transaction in marriage in the administration of nations. If there be no treaty (agreement) between nations one has no obligation to not attack the other. One must agree with gov to stop at a red light to be licensed to operated a vehicle on public roads. To not stop, is to violate the agreement (law) and punishment is dished out according to the agreement (law). Animals aren’t in any agreement that cause guilt, but all men are. If there is no marriage agreement then one isn’t obligated to the other. Households can’t coexist peacefully without agreement.
Which generic moral are you talking about the one where lions tear and devour their prey while it’s still alive? Or how about worms and parasites that eat their host while the host lives until it dies.

morals or right and wrong are of agreement.
 

DPMartin

Member
That appears to be correct.
Spirit is greater than flesh, and masters flesh.
So apparently we have good spirit as a master, and bad spirit as a master, and I believe we also have the choice of which master we fight "tooth and nail" against, or which we submit to. Ephesians 6:10-18; 1 Peter 5:6

according to Apostle Paul one is born into the service of one when born into the world, and one must be born of the other to be delivered from the first. but one must remember that all is in service to God to get the fulfillment He sees fit to keep, or sees as good.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If all that were true (you didn’t copy and past that did you?) then all living things would have a set of morals and anyone knows animals have no set of moral only fear of mutual harm.
You think their conduct towards each other is not the result of their evolution? Where then do you think their behavior comes from? Where do other gregarious animals get their group behaviors, like wolves hunting in packs, or dolphins fishing in groups, or chimps forming raiding parties? Did you know that nearly all kinds of primates thrive or fail within their societies by their ability to form one-to-one relationships within the group, and the larger the brain the more such relationships they can manage, and that's just what humans do, and how they use their big brains? Why do you think chimps mourn the death of their alphas? Elephants too? Why do animals that pair-bond mourn the loss of their mates? What's your explanation?
Animals that take care of their young, the life is of them, and some species don’t even do that.
All mammals do it from necessity. Humans do it because the child must be born many years before they operate can be independently. Non-mammals make their own arrangements, some caring for their young, many not. Evolution favors whatever works to promote survival and breeding.
The only being in the flesh concerned with morals and what is and isn’t moral is man.
I know of no evidence that says any such thing. Have you actually researched that question by exploring the science? Are you confusing human morality with the morality of other species (morality chiefly being about how one deals with others within one's group). Did you know that eg macaque monkeys have mirror neurons, and we have good reason to think many other species do too, not least dogs?
Which generic moral are you talking about the one where lions tear and devour their prey while it’s still alive?
Their morality, such as it is, deals with how they behave towards other lions. But all preying animals eat their prey quickly except those that have refrigerators.
Or how about worms and parasites that eat their host while the host lives until it dies.
That's evolution: the important thing is surviving long enough to breed, and that technique works for wasp eggs. The automatic alternative to surviving long enough to breed is to go extinct.

By the way, where do you think morals come from? And why do you think wasps lay their eggs in the larvae of other species? If it's not evolution then God is an extremely cruel and arbitrary so-and-so, no?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
according to Apostle Paul one is born into the service of one when born into the world, and one must be born of the other to be delivered from the first. but one must remember that all is in service to God to get the fulfillment He sees fit to keep, or sees as good.
Born to King Sin and Death. Released and bought by Grace, through the blood of Christ - so we belong to Christ, provided we have his spirit. Romans 8:9
Subjected to futility, on the basis of hope. Romans 8:20
Gotcha ;)
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
hey DPMartin,
Your getting real close to the secret of the Stuff of Life.
The mystery is in the Earthly Stuff, not in some `God`.
We are born with pieces of the Stuff of the Cosmos,
and the `goodness` of the benefits are there forever.
Have a drink, breath some air, The Earth provides all.
Regardless of what is said by Romans and nPeace !
 

DPMartin

Member
If it's not evolution then God is an extremely cruel and arbitrary so-and-so, no?

that would be in your judgement of what is good and evil isn't it? if there be an agreement between you and God where He promised you something you deserve, then you might have a complaint, correct?

but nothing and nobody deserves anything do they? unless there be an agreement where all parties have the power and means to keep it their part, whether God is involved or not.

morals are of the agreement or there is total disregard for the other in one's own perceived self interest.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
that would be in your judgement of what is good and evil isn't it?
I've explained my view of good and evil to you ─ a set of genetic tendencies found in all societies, and after that, regional, cultural and personal values that have been learnt. And I've mentioned the relevance of mirror neurons. In any large random group we could expect the genetic values to be very largely shared, and the local values to be more inconsistent.

As for my own views, I disagree with the commands attributed to the god of the bible concerning invasive war and land grabs, massacres, mass rapes, slavery, human sacrifice, and much more, including the death penalty. What's your view of those things ─ for or against?
if there be an agreement between you and God where He promised you something you deserve, then you might have a complaint, correct?
I don't understand your point here. Perhaps you could make it clearer with an example?
but nothing and nobody deserves anything do they?
That's not my view. My point is that views will differ, that there is no absolute morality. For instance, the god of the bible has (as I understand it) changed [his] mind about slavery and polygamy in most places in the West, and in many places also about divorce, homosexuality, the death penalty, and so on.
unless there be an agreement where all parties have the power and means to keep it their part, whether God is involved or not.
If by that you mean 'might is right', yes, there are daily examples of economic power being used in exploitative, cruel, deceitful and otherwise objectionable ways. My own morality disagrees with naked capitalism.
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
If `God` really exists, I doubt that `He` makes any promises, does `He` ?
Reword that last question if you could ? Promises should be made, yes ?
Whether anyone deserves favors from `God` is the problem, isn't it ?
Morals are within one's spirit aren't they, `God` is not the provider !
 

DPMartin

Member
I've explained my view of good and evil to you ─ a set of genetic tendencies found in all societies, and after that, regional, cultural and personal values that have been learnt. And I've mentioned the relevance of mirror neurons. In any large random group we could expect the genetic values to be very largely shared, and the local values to be more inconsistent.

As for my own views, I disagree with the commands attributed to the god of the bible concerning invasive war and land grabs, massacres, mass rapes, slavery, human sacrifice, and much more, including the death penalty. What's your view of those things ─ for or against?
I don't understand your point here. Perhaps you could make it clearer with an example?
That's not my view. My point is that views will differ, that there is no absolute morality. For instance, the god of the bible has (as I understand it) changed [his] mind about slavery and polygamy in most places in the West, and in many places also about divorce, homosexuality, the death penalty, and so on.
If by that you mean 'might is right', yes, there are daily examples of economic power being used in exploitative, cruel, deceitful and otherwise objectionable ways. My own morality disagrees with naked capitalism.


People change their minds, but the God of Jesus Christ does not, despite what people who call themselves christain say. Like most people most want the world to fit or be as they think it ought to be and christains do the same with there own views of what the God of Jesus Christ ought to be.

Many, christain or not, are correct about what they think, allowing them the dilution to believe they are correct, but what they think is bogus.

And when it comes to who deserve what loved ones are always worthy of good fortune, in the eyes of the lover. But if the Creator and Judge who love His Beloved Son Jesus Christ doesn’t love you, you might be poo out of luck. Read His promises to Israel the Torah the Covenant (agreement) and see the history of what Israel experienced in the past 1800 years. But now they’re back just like the prophets has called it.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
People change their minds, but the God of Jesus Christ does not'
So God still approves of
slavery and
polygamy and
invasive war and
massacres and
mass rape and
human sacrifice and
the death penalty for cutting your beard or insulting your parents,​
you say? Because God commands and approves all those things in the bible.

And Jesus has no dispute with God on those matters, and teaches (as he says) that not the dot on an i, not a single coffee stain, of the Law will change until the Kingdom has Come, yes?

Please give a clear and unambiguous reply to these points, since we're talking about the source of morals here.

And ─ I've asked you this before but you haven't replied ─ what's your own view on each of those things?
 
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