Enlightement

godnotgod · Sep 17, 2018

Thief said:
as far as I can be sure......an empty mind is obtained......
in a comma

Even the idea of 'mind' must go, but think about it: Vast unlimited emptiness contains the entire Universe, doesn't it? Nothingness, emptiness at its most allowing, is the only thing that can do so. When you limit consciousness with personal mind called 'I', there is no room for the greater experience of Enlightenment.

godnotgod · Sep 17, 2018

Thief said:
and no eyes on the target......

hehehehehehe

"He who aims at life achieves death"
Lao tse

"There is a way that seems right to man that ends in death"
Jesus

The more you try to achieve Enlightenment as a goal, the further from it you will be. Just stay on the path and the rest will fall into place of its own accord. Deliberate intent by the will is not the way. The fruit just falls from the tree when ripe, empty of intent and purpose.

"The geese flying over the still pond do not intend to cast their shadows;
neither does the still pond intend to reflect their images"
Zen source

The experience of Enlightenment is beyond anything the mind of Reason, Logic, and Analysis can come close to imagining as a targeted goal. That is why the mind must be emptied of all preconceptions about the experience. Receptivity is the key.

godnotgod · Sep 17, 2018

shunyadragon said:
I believe it an idea and goal not reachable by fallible humans.

To be clear, not reachable via the rational mind. Reason, Logic, and Analysis stand squarely in the way of the Enlightenment experience, and so must be transcended.

godnotgod · Sep 17, 2018

"Before Enlightenment, it is Something Special;
after Enlightenment, it is Nothing Special"
Zen source

'My heart burns like fire but my eyes are as cold as dead ashes.'
Soyen Shaku

Thief · Sep 17, 2018

godnotgod said:
The fruit just falls from the tree when ripe, empty of intent and purpose.

well sorry.....that was just dumb

seeds are empty?

no life?

much like a human after the last breath?

I believe I can .....and WILL......continue

Thief · Sep 17, 2018

godnotgod said:
To be clear, not reachable via the rational mind. Reason, Logic, and Analysis stand squarely in the way of the Enlightenment experience, and so must be transcended.

I think you are confusing transcendence with ignorance

empty your head.....and you are better off?

godnotgod · Sep 18, 2018

Thief said:
I think you are confusing transcendence with ignorance

empty your head.....and you are better off?

Can an empty mind contain false notions of reality?

godnotgod · Sep 18, 2018

Thief said:
well sorry.....that was just dumb

seeds are empty?

no life?

much like a human after the last breath?

Is there intent or purpose at the moment when the ripened fruit falls from the tree?

Do you think you can cause your own Enlightenment via intent and purpose, or is it just something that spontaneously occurs, without your will?

I believe I can .....and WILL......continue

To what end?

Thief · Sep 18, 2018

godnotgod said:
Can an empty mind contain false notions of reality?

as in coma?.......or just plain dead?

Windwalker · Sep 18, 2018

SalixIncendium said:
Help me to understand the logic behind this proposal.

If one is a genuinely a horrible ******* and is authentic about it in all areas of life, one will achieve enlightenment?

Being a horrible ******* demonstrates they are anything but being authentic.

Windwalker · Sep 18, 2018

shunyadragon said:
I do not consider Buddha an ordinary person, and your quote is the key to what Buddha attained was not what fallible humans claim as enlightenment.

Buddha was an ordinary person just like you and me. When we Awaken, then we are extraordinary, by normal standards because we aren't still asleep in bed.

shunyadragon said:
The clinging to asceticism, cultural garb and robes, statues temples and imagery in Buddhism today is antithetical to the teachings of Buddha.

The Baha'i, have a temple, don't they?

shunyadragon · Sep 18, 2018

Windwalker said:
Buddha was an ordinary person just like you and me. When we Awaken, then we are extraordinary, by normal standards because we aren't still asleep in bed.

I disagree. I consider claims of enlightenment to be too variable, egocentric and conflicting among us fallible humans.

The Baha'i, have a temple, don't they?

It is a public place of prayer and meditation for all beliefs, and no rituals nor ceremonies take place in them. There is no cultural clothing, lifestyle, collection of funds associated with the Baha'i Houses.

Windwalker · Sep 18, 2018

shunyadragon said:
I disagree. I consider claims of enlightenment to be too variable, egocentric and conflicting among us fallible humans.

You believe Siddhārtha Gautama was not a normal human being like the rest of us, finding his path to Truth, like the rest of us? You believe the mythology that lotus blossoms grew in his footsteps when he had just been born moments before?

According to the legends about this birth, the baby began to walk seven steps forward and at each step a lotus flower appeared on the ground. Then, at the seventh stride, he stopped and with a noble voice shouted:

"I am chief of the world,
Eldest am I in the world,
Foremost am I in the world.
This is the last birth.
There is now no more coming to be."

You believe this is factual history, and therefore believe he was not like us?

I think this is my core problem with Baha'i beliefs. They elevate what is in fact accessible to anyone of us, as only for these mythological images of super-beings who are anything but human. It's like some Buddhists who believe only males can be enlightened!

godnotgod · Sep 18, 2018

Thief said:
as in coma?.......or just plain dead?

No, silly, as in 'eyes wide open without a single thought in mind'. An empty mind does not mean you have been lobotomized. It means you are MORE conscious than when your mind was squirming like a toad, lost in Identification and thinking. An empty mind allows one to SEE things as they are, rather than merely conceptualize about how they are. Actually, I should be saying 'no-mind', since mind itself is a self-created principle emerging from thought.

The discursive mind is sometimes referred to as 'monkey mind' because it jumps around from one thought to the next. The idea is to subdue this 'monkey mind' and make it completely quiet, so that 'Big Mind' can then come into play.

Rinchen · Sep 18, 2018

Windwalker said:
You believe Siddhārtha Gautama was not a normal human being like the rest of us, finding his path to Truth, like the rest of us? You believe the mythology that lotus blossoms grew in his footsteps when he had just been born moments before?

In Mahayana Buddhism the Buddha was not a human like you and me, there are sentient beings, and then there are Buddhas.

And, about the claim that the Buddha manifested lotuses underneath his feet when he was born: He explains how such miraculous feats. occur in the Mahayana Sutras themselves. Everything you see, feel, taste, touch, etc. is a reflection of your Karma. If it is your Karma to see lotuses underneath the feet of the Buddha, then that you will see. That is why, according to many Buddhists, such miraculous happenings are possible. The Buddha also would manifest pure lands that some could see and others, because of their Karma, could not see. So were there lotuses underneath his feet at the time of his birth? Depends on your Karma.

godnotgod · Sep 18, 2018

Rinchen said:
In Mahayana Buddhism the Buddha was not a human like you and me, there are sentient beings, and then there are Buddhas.
.

Prior to the realization of his Enlightenment, was he not an ordinary man?

"When an ordinary man gains wisdom, he becomes a sage;
when a sage gains understanding, he becomes an ordinary man"
Source unknown

"Before Enlightenment, it is Something Special'
after Enlightenment, it is Nothing Special"
Zen source

In the Ten Oxherding Pictures of Chan Buddhism, the monk returns to society as a buddha, mingling with common folk, as his realization is that everyone has Buddha nature.

10. Return to Society
Barefooted and naked of breast,
I mingle with the people of the world.
My clothes are ragged and dust-laden*,
and I am ever blissful.
I use no magic to extend my life;
Now, before me, the dead trees
become alive.

Ten Bulls - Wikipedia

edit: also, consider that one of the primary symbols of Buddhism is the Lotus, which emerges from plain mud, along with the fact that Buddhism states that 'Nirvana and Samsara are not different'.

*This may be a reference to the fact that 'dust' in Buddhist thought is symbolic of the suffering of the world, or Samsara. So Buddhists sometimes say they have 'no attachment to dust', even though one is 'dust-laden', meaning that the Buddha has taken on the suffering of the world.

godnotgod · Sep 18, 2018

Windwalker said:
You believe Siddhārtha Gautama was not a normal human being like the rest of us, finding his path to Truth, like the rest of us? You believe the mythology that lotus blossoms grew in his footsteps when he had just been born moments before?

According to the legends about this birth, the baby began to walk seven steps forward and at each step a lotus flower appeared on the ground. Then, at the seventh stride, he stopped and with a noble voice shouted:

"I am chief of the world,
Eldest am I in the world,
Foremost am I in the world.
This is the last birth.
There is now no more coming to be."

As I recall, Lao tse reputedly descended to Earth on a Sunbeam.

Rinchen · Sep 18, 2018

godnotgod said:
Prior to the realization of his Enlightenment, was he not an ordinary man?

No, and neither are you. Prior to Buddha Shakyamunis enlightenment, he traversed the path for 3 eons. So, he was born as an animal, reborn as a god, human, etc. You, me, nor the Buddha are intrisically human, ordinary or extrordinary. Also, saying he was an ordinary human takes away from the fact that when he manifested as Siddhartha Gautama, he had innumerable lifetimes of practice under his belt.

Rinchen · Sep 18, 2018

I guess i am just confused by the term "ordinary" in reference to Siddhartha Gautama pre-awakening. He was a 10th Bhumi Bodhisattva on the verge of full awakening the moment he entered into this world. This is accepted by Mahayana Buddhism, and many Theravada Buddhists accept he was on the path for eons as well.

SalixIncendium · Sep 18, 2018

Windwalker said:
Being a horrible ******* demonstrates they are anything but being authentic.

Dependent, of course, on how one, or more accurately, by what one perceives the concept of authenticity.

Enlightement

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