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Can we prove or disprove the claims of any Messenger of God?
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
What do any of these have to do with God?This thread is the start of a discussion between @Trailblazer and I about Proofs. What are the proofs that God exists, that a prophet is who He says He is, or that He is a Messenger of God? Are there really any proofs at all or is it all an illusion and wishful thinking at best and delusion at worst?
Bahá’ís believe God has inspired Divine Teachers with laws and teachings for mankind in each age. In the past there have been many Prophets and Messengers. How do we know whether any of these past Messengers were really from God?
I believe there are several proofs which can used to demonstrate the truth of such a claim. These proofs can be used to demonstrate the truth of great Teachers of the past such as Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Christ and Muhammad and more recently Bahá'u’lláh.
So what are these proofs of the truth of any Manifestation of God?
____________________________________________________________________________________
1. His Character
According to Bahá'u’lláh the 'first and foremost testimony' of a Messenger of God is 'His own Self'. The Manifestation of God has a dual nature consisting of both a divine station and a human station. For example He may show innate knowledge from childhood and from an early age be renowned for Their extraordinary wisdom. The religious leaders of the day may find themselves unable rival Him.
He may always the friend of those in need and be detached from the worldly pursuits. Instead He may accept a life of persecution, imprisonment or poverty in the path of God. From His lowly state He may fearlessly address the religious and worldly rulers proclaiming His Mission, calling upon them to be just and fair to their people.
2. His Revelation
The laws and teachings brought by the Manifestation of God are the next proof. They identify God to
be the origin of this Revelation rather than Themselves. Such Teachings are like those from a Divine Physician who has His pulse on the finger of mankind. In His unerring wisdom He proclaims the remedy of the age in which They live.
3. His verses
The verses (words) revealed by the Manifestations of God are different from those of men. They are the 'Word of God'. They have great spiritual power and change the hearts of men. They possess a special beauty and eloquence.
4. The martyrs
When God sends a new Teacher to mankind detached pure-hearted souls seek Him out. They become so inspired and transformed that they readily and joyfully sacrifice their wealth, position and even their lives in the path of God.
5. The repudiation
Christ was persecuted by the clergy and the rulers of His day. The same happened to Muhammad and to every Manifestation of God.
6. The two-fold sign
Many of of us know of the star which signaled the birth of Jesus and of John the Baptist who spoke of Him. Bahá’u’lláh says that every Manifestation of God is announced by one sign in the physical heaven (e.g. a star or comet) and another sign in the spiritual heaven (eg Matthew 24:29).
7. Prophecies Fulfilled
All the Manifestations of God are part of one Plan and each one foretells the coming of the next.
8. Future Events Foretold
The Manifestations of God may make prophecies of future events.
9. Miracles
While the Manifestations of God may perform many miraculous deeds we should be cautious with this proof as theyare only proofs for those who see and but not so much for those who hear them second-hand.
____________________________________________________________________________________
So are these 'proofs' of any value? Why do you believe what you do and is evidence or proof important?
I'm not looking for an argument or to push my Baha'i beliefs on anybody, just respectful courteous discussion. Thanks again for your thoughts and comments.
I mean, how do you start with any of them (or all of them) and get to “therefore, this person is a messenger of God?”
“Faith” in the sense of “believing something without good reason” not only has no value; it’s actually a failing.
“Faith” in the sense of “loyalty” isn’t incompatible with proof.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Several errors here. There is no reason that one would have to view things from another's perspective. If that perspective is flawed all that one would see is that confirmation bias is a strong force. Second one does not need to "prove atheism". Atheism is the null hypothesis, the ground state, of belief. Without evidence I do not believe in fairies. Without evidence I do not believe in Bigfoot. Without evidence I do not believe in visitors from outer space. And without evidence I do not believe in a god.
Third the criteria I posted eliminate almost every prophesy that I can think of. They are reasonable standards that a prophecy must meet to be of any value. The claims of "prophecy" fail from every religion so far.
Audie
Veteran Member
How does that relate to faith in a god.
Audie
Veteran Member
It was a total non response,
and if you think trying to go socratic is
a proper response, I dont.
Of course it depepends on the circumstances;
IF I had "disesases" and IF there were a pill that
could cure "diseases" and IF the pill were to be
offered under legit circumstances. And
IF turtles could fly.
You have no answer, so lets drop this.
Audie
Veteran Member
Every traffic accident happens for a reason.
In Christianity (since we're talking about "faith" as a virtue, which tends to be a specifically Christian idea), faith used to refer to loyalty to God ("faithfulness") and not to mere acceptance of God's existence without evidence; that came later.
And it really doesn't make sense to pin salvation on the mere belief that God exists; according to the mythology, even Satan does that much.
All your ifs need to be verified, right? Faith doesn't answer any of it.
The answer is rhetorical.
Who would buy a $20 pill labeled to cure all your diseases.
Some could learn from Socrates on cynisism.
I see it is Everything to do with God.
The first cause of creation is the most Great Spirit, that all the Manifestations of God come forth from. They are one and of the same Sprit. Thus the Person is the embodiment of all proof.
As a result creation comes forth from the Manifestations. All they give us, assists us in all aspects of life and knowledge.
Science should relish this knowledge.
Regards Tony
To me Faith only comes about because of a just an logical search of all the facts presented. The OP listed some criteria that can be considered.
Regards Tony
Audie
Veteran Member
I did suggest dropping it, as you have no answer.
Audie
Veteran Member
I know the loyalty thing-see Job.
Course, one aware of "god" would be profoundly ill-advised
to waver.
The op is of course about proof of god, so this your post
also addresseth not my q.
You cannot "prove" anything with regard to God....that is why we need "faith". Faith does not require proof (Hebrews 11:1) ...it requires conviction. We all have to find our own, based on what we accept as truth.....why we accept it tells God a lot about who we are.
Christians cannot accept the teachings of anyone but Jesus Christ. We have no prophets after him. If their prophet is believed to be the returned Messiah, then where are the fulfilled Messianic promises? Where is the end of pain, suffering and death? (Revelation 21:2-4)
Where is the paradise that was foretold by the Jewish prophets like Isaiah? Where is the end of war? (Isaiah 11:1-9; Isaiah 65:21-25; Isaiah 2:2-4)
Or Psalm 46:8-9....
"Come and witness the activities of Jehovah,
How he has done astonishing things on the earth.
9 He is bringing an end to wars throughout the earth.
He breaks the bow and shatters the spear;
He burns the military wagons with fire."
Where do we see that? When have we seen a time when humans are not warring with one another? It seems to be consistently increasing.
And the weaponry has just become more indiscriminate and lethal.With regard to Bahá'u’lláh.....is the Messiah to return, only to die twice? His sacrificial death in the first century was the ransom paid to redeem mankind....he was not going to return in the flesh and then lead people in a different path, trying to unite all religions and give credence to false prophets. Jehovah kept his people strictly separated from the nations who worshipped other gods.
Christ's return as judge of all the earth was going to be spectacular, accompanied by his angelic forces, to deal with disobedient mankind who followed the devil into false worship....and to reward those who remained faithful to the truth (sheep and goats).....it was to be the end of the age....and the beginning of the "new earth" under the "new heavens".....God's Kingdom. (2 Peter 3:13)
If you see the criteria listed for a true prophet...."The true prophet would speak in Jehovah’s name; the things foretold would come to pass (Deuteronomy 18:20-22); and his prophesying must promote true worship, being in harmony with God’s revealed word and commandments (Deuteronomy 13:1-4)"
1) Bahá'u’lláh did not speak in the name of YHWH. (Yahweh, Jehovah)
2) If what he said did come to pass, then that is a matter of interpretation.
3) His prophesies did not harmonize with the revealed word of God.
Baha'i sprang from Islam, not Judaism. The nation that God chose descended from Isaac not Ishmael. Jesus himself said that salvation originates with the Jews.....it was not to end with them however.
I do not believe that you can ever harmonize all the false religion in the world and meld them into one universal plan for the human race...that to me is something that the devil would promote....not because universal harmony is itself a bad thing, but because of the compromise involved in facilitating such a movement. It might sound good in theory, but it fights with everything the Bible teaches and it means that no one has to take a stand for God amid false religious opposers. It would mean that God didn't really mean what he said when he forbade Israel to adopt the worship of the Canaanites. He commanded that they remain separated from those beliefs and practices...but Israel disobeyed their God and immersed themselves in those false religious practices. God punished them severely for doing that...so why would Jehovah send a prophet into the world to negate everything that he taught his people....going against the teachings of his own son?
You will notice something interesting with the first requirement of a prophet listed above.....the importance of Jehovah's name. In his model prayer, the first thing that Jesus mentioned was the sanctification of God's name. (Matthew 6:9) Out of the three "Abrahamic faiths still on earth to this day...what do you see with regard to God's divine name...YHWH (Jehovah in English)?
The Jews cannot utter it, so the use of the name is lost to history because no one really knows how to pronounce it now. So "Hasham" (literally meaning "the name") is as close as they can get to the divine name. "Adonai" (LORD) is the substitute when reading their scripture though YHWH is written there. It seems odd that the Bible writers had no such hesitation to use God's name freely and reverently throughout their writings.....so why was there a decision made to remove God's name from their speech? Their excuse for this is not valid when you consult their scripture.
Islam calls God "Allah" which again simply means "LORD".....so again God remains nameless.
Christendom adopted the Jewish tradition of leaving God's name out of their vocabulary as well, and its not found in most of their Bible translations either......and because Jesus is also called "Lord" they have confused him with his Father and made them into one god, throwing in the holy spirit for good measure. So it seems that a nameless "LORD" is worshipped by all three.
Jehovah's Witnesses sought to rectify that situation and to restore God's name to its rightful place in scripture. We use God's name freely and reverently in whatever language is spoken by us, because God is the originator of language and recognizes his name in any tongue. It isn't how you say it...its the identity of the true God who is distinguished in the scriptures by his unique name. To us there has to be a clear distinction between the true God and his prophets and the many false gods and their prophets. We have no trouble making that distinction because we see it as something God has done all through Bible history. There can be no amalgamation. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)
This is how we see things...
If you say so. I’ve met plenty of religious people who have said that “faith” stands opposed to logical inference from the facts.
And I asked @adrian009 what any of them had to do with establishing that someone was a messenger of God. If you have any thoughts on the matter, feel free to share.
In Matthew 24:3-14 and Luke 21:7-19; 29-36, Jesus gave us a "sign" in a series of events that would occur in sequence to alert his disciples that he had begun to rule as King. The prophet Daniel saw in vision future events in what he called "the time of the end". (Daniel 12:9-10) One of those events concerned the enthronement of God's appointed King. (Daniel 7:13-14) This was unseen to human eyes and if Daniel had not recorded it, we would never have known that it took place. So tying it in with the "sign" Jesus gave makes sense.....we would not need a sign for something that was visibly evident. This series of events was to mark the beginning of Christ's rulership and the start of the "last days" of this present system of things. This is the sign of his "presence" (parousia) but not of his "coming", which we see as two separate events.
He said that there would be false Messiahs who would mislead many. He also spoke of wars fought in the usual way as they had all through history...but not to be fooled because something bigger was coming.
As you know, we believe that Jesus' coronation took place in 1914 and the first part of the "sign" was unprecedented war....."nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom"....no war in the history of mankind drew the whole world into bloody conflict like this war did....hence its name..."the First World War". It was followed by food shortages and disease epidemics.....great earthquakes and an increase in lawlessness which would result in humanity's care and love for their fellowman to all but disappear. Trust would almost vanish from the world. You can't love those you can't trust.
He also spoke about hatred for his disciples for the same reasons as his first disciples were treated badly, (John 15:18-21) leading to some of them being killed for their faith. But in spite of all the obstacles, they would be actively "preaching the good news about God's kingdom in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations".... right to "the end", when Jesus was to make his spectacular appearance as the judge appointed by God to separate the "sheep" from the "goats"....and to usher in the rule of his Kingdom, seen by Daniel in Daniel 2:44. It was to occur by crushing all corrupt human rulership out of existence.
We expect the same response as Jesus and his true disciples received in the first century...only the names of the players have changed. Instead of the Jews persecuting other Jews for what they saw as apostasy, we would see "Christians" persecuting other Christians for the same reasons. History repeats because human nature does not change. Sadly we are that predictable.
The majority of those opposing Christ's true followers do so because they have had very different ideas fed to them over a very long period of time. The Judaism that was practiced in Jesus' day was nothing like the worship God prescribed for his people under Moses, who was God's appointed mediator. And in this "time of the end" we would see much the same thing...the "Christianity" practiced in Christendom in no way reflects the one originating in the teachings of Jesus and the apostles.
So we expect "many" to be as misled as the Jews were and for the same reasons.....Jesus said that "few" are on the cramped and narrow road to life" because "many" prefer to remain on the broad easy road, not really believing that it will lead to their death. (Matthew 7:13-14) They will be horrified when Jesus tells them that he "never knew" them. (Matthew 7:21-23)
This is what we believe, and expect to see in the near future.
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Its great to see so many responses to the OP. I never know what to expect on RF.
I was contemplating overnight how important it is to thoroughly consider the merits or otherwise of any religion we are considering joining. Its one of those really important decisions we make or fail to make in life. Some people join a faith or religion without thinking it through carefully. I don't have a problem with that. However for many of us at some stage its important to closely examine what we believe and why. So each one of us may have criteria we apply to examining our beliefs. Sometimes its conscious and can be clearly stated. Other times very personal and not so easy to express.
I'm busy at work today so will respond to individual posts through the day as time permits.
Thank you.
I was contemplating overnight how important it is to thoroughly consider the merits or otherwise of any religion we are considering joining. Its one of those really important decisions we make or fail to make in life. Some people join a faith or religion without thinking it through carefully. I don't have a problem with that. However for many of us at some stage its important to closely examine what we believe and why. So each one of us may have criteria we apply to examining our beliefs. Sometimes its conscious and can be clearly stated. Other times very personal and not so easy to express.
I'm busy at work today so will respond to individual posts through the day as time permits.
Thank you.
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Please go back and read my post to you. What I'm saying is if you were sincerely wanting to find the truth within any religion, and more specifically Christianity or the Baha'i Faith you would need to make some important preparations and changes in the way you approach your study. I provided some examples as to what kind of changes you would need to make. What was your understanding of the verses I posted?
If you were to go on a long tramping expedition through the wilderness, there's certain preparations that need to be make to ensure you successfully achieve your goal.
Comprehension of a sacred text is important, otherwise what's the point?
I'm not asking you to prove atheism to me. When did I ask that?
When you compare the religious beliefs of others to belief in fairies and bigfoot you simply show disrespect.
If you want to understand someone else's POV you do need to be able to see it from their perspective by definition. If you don't want to do that, its fine. There should be no coercion or compulsion in religion.
In regards prophecy, I don't know what you've looked at. If you can't demonstrate you have understood the sacred text in question, you'll convince no one but yourself.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
You cannot "prove" anything with regard to God....that is why we need "faith". Faith does not require proof (Hebrews 11:1) ...it requires conviction. We all have to find our own, based on what we accept as truth.....why we accept it tells God a lot about who we are.
Christians cannot accept the teachings of anyone but Jesus Christ. We have no prophets after him. If their prophet is believed to be the returned Messiah, then where are the fulfilled Messianic promises? Where is the end of pain, suffering and death? (Revelation 21:2-4)
Where is the paradise that was foretold by the Jewish prophets like Isaiah? Where is the end of war? (Isaiah 11:1-9; Isaiah 65:21-25; Isaiah 2:2-4)
Or Psalm 46:8-9....
"Come and witness the activities of Jehovah,
How he has done astonishing things on the earth.
9 He is bringing an end to wars throughout the earth.
He breaks the bow and shatters the spear;
He burns the military wagons with fire."
Where do we see that? When have we seen a time when humans are not warring with one another? It seems to be consistently increasing.
With regard to Bahá'u’lláh.....is the Messiah to return, only to die twice? His sacrificial death in the first century was the ransom paid to redeem mankind....he was not going to return in the flesh and then lead people in a different path, trying to unite all religions and give credence to false prophets. Jehovah kept his people strictly separated from the nations who worshipped other gods.
Christ's return as judge of all the earth was going to be spectacular, accompanied by his angelic forces, to deal with disobedient mankind who followed the devil into false worship....and to reward those who remained faithful to the truth (sheep and goats).....it was to be the end of the age....and the beginning of the "new earth" under the "new heavens".....God's Kingdom. (2 Peter 3:13)
If you see the criteria listed for a true prophet...."The true prophet would speak in Jehovah’s name; the things foretold would come to pass (Deuteronomy 18:20-22); and his prophesying must promote true worship, being in harmony with God’s revealed word and commandments (Deuteronomy 13:1-4)"
1) Bahá'u’lláh did not speak in the name of YHWH. (Yahweh, Jehovah)
2) If what he said did come to pass, then that is a matter of interpretation.
3) His prophesies did not harmonize with the revealed word of God.
Baha'i sprang from Islam, not Judaism. The nation that God chose descended from Isaac not Ishmael. Jesus himself said that salvation originates with the Jews.....it was not to end with them however.
I do not believe that you can ever harmonize all the false religion in the world and meld them into one universal plan for the human race...that to me is something that the devil would promote....not because universal harmony is itself a bad thing, but because of the compromise involved in facilitating such a movement. It might sound good in theory, but it fights with everything the Bible teaches and it means that no one has to take a stand for God amid false religious opposers. It would mean that God didn't really mean what he said when he forbade Israel to adopt the worship of the Canaanites. He commanded that they remain separated from those beliefs and practices...but Israel disobeyed their God and immersed themselves in those false religious practices. God punished them severely for doing that...so why would Jehovah send a prophet into the world to negate everything that he taught his people....going against the teachings of his own son?
You will notice something interesting with the first requirement of a prophet listed above.....the importance of Jehovah's name. In his model prayer, the first thing that Jesus mentioned was the sanctification of God's name. (Matthew 6:9) Out of the three "Abrahamic faiths still on earth to this day...what do you see with regard to God's divine name...YHWH (Jehovah in English)?
The Jews cannot utter it, so the use of the name is lost to history because no one really knows how to pronounce it now. So "Hasham" (literally meaning "the name") is as close as they can get to the divine name. "Adonai" (LORD) is the substitute when reading their scripture though YHWH is written there. It seems odd that the Bible writers had no such hesitation to use God's name freely and reverently throughout their writings.....so why was there a decision made to remove God's name from their speech? Their excuse for this is not valid when you consult their scripture.
Islam calls God "Allah" which again simply means "LORD".....so again God remains nameless.
Christendom adopted the Jewish tradition of leaving God's name out of their vocabulary as well, and its not found in most of their Bible translations either......and because Jesus is also called "Lord" they have confused him with his Father and made them into one god, throwing in the holy spirit for good measure. So it seems that a nameless "LORD" is worshipped by all three.
Jehovah's Witnesses sought to rectify that situation and to restore God's name to its rightful place in scripture. We use God's name freely and reverently in whatever language is spoken by us, because God is the originator of language and recognizes his name in any tongue. It isn't how you say it...its the identity of the true God who is distinguished in the scriptures by his unique name. To us there has to be a clear distinction between the true God and his prophets and the many false gods and their prophets. We have no trouble making that distinction because we see it as something God has done all through Bible history. There can be no amalgamation. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)
This is how we see things...
Thank you. This was excellent. Thanks
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
True. Going into a belief or religion shouldnt (in my opinion) be haphazard. I learned from experience it can make other people very sad and in some casesa waste of their time; so a few I gather but Catholics dont tell me such things in person.
I always say nowadays if your religion or belief cannot hang out in the background and is your reality and everyday truth, either maybe one isnt strong in their faith because they are trying to reconcile differences between their personal morals and the beliefs they want to adopt. Other times it could be a person needs to be willing to (I agree) make that life change in order to follow. Then again, though, that takes time to understand that. Spiritual growth.
But trust in the process and patience seem to be a good determiner of what faith a person wants to practice or they are looking at but it still hasnt changed their view of reality. I was told by a Muslim indoctrinates take that process of believing-in for granted as they dont need to convert. He says a lot of converts have a better deep understanding of their faith because they look into it (paraphrasing this from about a year ago).
But it can take years to think it through carefully. Trust and patience is the best way. If you want to get into a relationship from a friendship, to some point the biggest way to know the person is trust. You amy dislike her for some things but trust and knowing differences would supass all that. When we find out our girlfriends arent like us and thats good is starting towards personal growth.
Anyway, your post makes sense . I have some other perspectives on the same issue but in the end, I think we agree.
Have fun at work. I fell asleep in the evening and woke up startled thinking it was the next day and whether I should be at work. Luckly, I read the schedule wrong and its the evening not next mornng.
Now Ill be up all night