Homeopathy

Trailblazer said:

Most people who talk about homeopathy have no idea what it is, how it works, or what it does. They just speak out of complete ignorance. I went to school for four years and got a degree in homeopathic medicine so I know how it works and why it works.

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Then enlighten us. How and why do you think it works? Why do you think that a "solution" with literally zero molecules of the active ingredient would have an effect?

One sure way to cull the gene pool of anti-science conspiracy theorists is to encourage the homeopathy advocates to rely on it. Sadly, as with all karma, such an approach carries with it an unacceptable spectrum of collateral damage.

oldbadger said:

Hello again.......
I didn't read all the above because I just have questions of my own for you.

I understand that homeopathy dilutions are extremely weak, but I do wonder just how sensitive our bodies can be to traces of elements?

I don't think that we know enough about homeopathy to discard it........ I don't think that we should spend National Health resources upon what could be described as 'cures with unknown values' because we've got a long waiting list for knee, hip and other very tangible procedures, but funds for further research into 'other medicines' might be of value?

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Let me put it this way.

When you drink some homeopathic water, that water has more chances to have molecules that passed through Julius Ceasar’s bladder than to have any molecules of the pathogen supposed to cure.

And the idea that water remembers with what molecules has been in contact, would make claims like dinosaurs living at the same time with humans look like high science, in comparison.

Ciao

- viole

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Homeopathic preparations don't necessarily have to be diluted to nothing to still be homeopathic.

They often are, since one of the principles of homeopathy is that the more dilute a preparation is, the stronger the effect, but some "low strength" homeopathic products can have non-negligible amounts of active ingredients on purpose.

But then there's also the problem of medications that are marketed as homeopathic but deliberately have "allopathic" ingredients - sometimes undeclared - to create the desired effect. This is less common, but has happened a few times: for instance "homeopathic"-labelled painkillers containing real doses of ASA and the like.

... which is more about the lack of regulation in the homeopathic industry, but that traces back to genuine homeopathy as well. Real medications get evaluated by regulators (e.g. the FDA in the US) to confirm that they're safe and effective. The homeopathic industry has - successfully - pushed hard to avoid this for themselves because they know their products aren't effective, but in the process, they've created a system where virtually any product with the word "homeopathic" on the label doesn't get evaluated to see if it's safe.

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I apply the duck test. If it was some active ingredients then it's allopathic no matter what it's labeled as. And for those situations where there is a real measurable ingredient, it should be evaluated for safety no matter what the label is.

I'm very reluctant to join a discussion mostly involving people I ignore, so I'll just make a few points and leave!
1. The fact that homeopathy cannot be explained by the physical sciences proves nothing, except to dogmatic materialists.
2. The fact that the US medical establishment dismiss it proves nothing: it's not dismissed in many other countries (e.g. France).
3. The traditional testing methods are almost impossible to appy to any system of therapy which is patient-specific.
4. If homeopathic treatments were placebos, then conditions that can be cured by homeopathy like migraine should be curable by conventional medicine rather than just controlled.
5. For those of us who have actually had successful homeopathic treatment, criticism based on theory and dogma isn't worth the paper it's written on.

sun rise said:

I apply the duck test. If it was some active ingredients then it's allopathic no matter what it's labeled as. And for those situations where there is a real measurable ingredient, it should be evaluated for safety no matter what the label is.

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I don't disagree. I'd just go a step further and get rid of the special treatment for homeopathic products. If someone wants to sell one, let them demonstrate that it's safe and effective through rigorous clinical trials.

DavidMcCann said:

I'm very reluctant to join a discussion mostly involving people I ignore, so I'll just make a few points and leave!
1. The fact that homeopathy cannot be explained by the physical sciences proves nothing, except to dogmatic materialists.
2. The fact that the US medical establishment dismiss it proves nothing: it's not dismissed in many other countries (e.g. France).
3. The traditional testing methods are almost impossible to appy to any system of therapy which is patient-specific.
4. If homeopathic treatments were placebos, then conditions that can be cured by homeopathy like migraine should be curable by conventional medicine rather than just controlled.
5. For those of us who have actually had successful homeopathic treatment, criticism based on theory and dogma isn't worth the paper it's written on.

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You need to learn the difference between baseless claims and "points".

1. The fact that homeopathy cannot be explained by believers in it is a strong sign that only their belief in these quack nostrums is why they think that it works.

2. Actually the fact that U.S. medical establishments dismiss it is because they have tested homeopathy and found that its claims are false. And even France is backing away from this false treatment.

3. A baseless clam so weak that i it refutes itself. The fact that testing homeopathy and finding that it fails does not mean that the test was wrong. Why do traditional testing methods work for real medicines but not for homeopathy?

4. But that is the problem. There are no conditions that can be cured by homeopathy any better than placebos do At least none that homeopathy supporters can post, perhaps you could have been the first. But I doubt it.

5. Like creationists when you make the apparently false claim of "dogma" you do not seem to realize that by doing so you put the burden of proof upon yourself "Dogma" does not mean a practice that you disagree with. I suggest that you look up the definition or support your claims. You do not seem to realize that people very often tend to get better even without treatment. For you to claim that homeopathy works you need to prove that first they get better at a higher rate than those with no treatment at all and then you need to prove that they get better faster than those on a placebo But like most supporters of woo you will simply spew your nonsense and run away.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Often, people try to justify unethical behavior on the grounds that it's necessary or expedient.

You don't know? If you're going to argue for violating patients' rights, shouldn't you figure out first if you're getting anything for the cost?

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Your point would ring true if current medical practice was ethical, but it isn't. Many 'real' treatments offer more harms than benefits.

Better to be given nothing for the cost than getting something actively harmful.

The gold standard for establishing whether a medicine works or not is a double blinded randomised control trial. That removes bias from both the person taking the medicine and the one collating the data. It also eliminates the placebo aspect which is in fact a surprisingly important aspect of the effectiveness of any medicine. To date there is no known evidence to my knowledge that a homeopathic remedy works any better than a placebo pill. However placebo pills can have a powerful affect for some people and that’s most likely why homeopathic remedies work for some people who will in turn have strong beliefs about its efficacy.

oldbadger said:

Hello again.......
I didn't read all the above because I just have questions of my own for you.

I understand that homeopathy dilutions are extremely weak, but I do wonder just how sensitive our bodies can be to traces of elements?

I don't think that we know enough about homeopathy to discard it........ I don't think that we should spend National Health resources upon what could be described as 'cures with unknown values' because we've got a long waiting list for knee, hip and other very tangible procedures, but funds for further research into 'other medicines' might be of value?

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Many if not most solutions are so diluted that not a single molecule of the supposed active ingredient is present. Homeopathy proponents get around this by asserting that water has a memory and remembers the molecules that were in it. I find that an odd assertion, because as we all know, water is recycled endlessly in the Earth's water cycle. If that was the case, it should remember all the urine, feces, bacteria, radioactive elements, etc. that have passed through it. None of it would be drinkable and would make you very ill.

Milton Platt said:

Many if not most solutions are so diluted that not a single molecule of the supposed active ingredient is present. Homeopathy proponents get around this by asserting that water has a memory and remembers the molecules that were in it. I find that an odd assertion, because as we all know, water is recycled endlessly in the Earth's water cycle. If that was the case, it should remember all the urine, feces, bacteria, radioactive elements, etc. that have passed through it. None of it would be drinkable and would make you very ill.

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Or it could be the other way around. Sometimes in homeopathy they put a tiny amount of what makes you ill in the seed solution. The endless dilution of all of those causes of disease and illness should have made us immune to everything.

The reason I brought up larger doses of clinically significant amounts in relation to homeopathy is zinc lozenges that are labeled homeopathic. In that case, there is clinical evidence of effectiveness Zinc lozenges and the common cold: a meta-analysis comparing zinc acetate and zinc gluconate, and the role of zinc dosage

So that gets back to accurate labeling for starters.

sun rise said:

The reason I brought up larger doses of clinically significant amounts in relation to homeopathy is zinc lozenges that are labeled homeopathic. In that case, there is clinical evidence of effectiveness Zinc lozenges and the common cold: a meta-analysis comparing zinc acetate and zinc gluconate, and the role of zinc dosage

So that gets back to accurate labeling for starters.

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It is well known medically that zinc can be helpful for the common cold. In this instance it is not being used as a homeopathic remedy.

sun rise said:

The reason I brought up larger doses of clinically significant amounts in relation to homeopathy is zinc lozenges that are labeled homeopathic. In that case, there is clinical evidence of effectiveness Zinc lozenges and the common cold: a meta-analysis comparing zinc acetate and zinc gluconate, and the role of zinc dosage

So that gets back to accurate labeling for starters.

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Properly speaking zinc treatments are not homeopathy. One is taking the actual medicines and as with other cures one can take too much of this element. I doubt if it would count as naturopathy either since zinc does not exist in those concentrations naturally.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

This thread is a continuation of a discussion between @Trailblazer and me in another thread. The last post over there:


That wasn’t actually one study; it was a meta-review of many studies of homeopathy.

The only studies out there that show that homeopathy has any effect beyond placebo are poor quality studies. There are countless high quality studies showing that homeopathy is not effective at treating any medical condition.


Makes sense that treating his asthma with water didn’t work.


They can do considerable harm, actually:

- they often lead to delay of real treatment, since many homeopathy fans will try homeopathy for a while before seeing a real doctor. Over that time, the person’s condition can worsen. People have died because of this.

- because homeopathic “remedies” aren’t subject to the normal government oversight and regulation that real medications have, they often have poor quality control, resulting in things like bacterial contamination, dangerously high levels of toxic ingredients, and undeclared active ingredients:

Massive recall of homeopathic kids’ products spotlights dubious health claims

Food agency warns of belladonna danger in US homeopathy product

Homeopathic Nasal Zinc Linked to Loss of Smell

homeopathic medicinal products: Topics by Science.gov


Hopefully. In the worst cases, the homeopathic preparation causes real harm, or the person’s condition gets worse because of lack of real treatment and is much harder to treat once they get seen by real doctors.


Psychiatric drugs are serious business that need care when prescribing them, but they’re only prescribed when they’re better than the alternatives.

If someone does need psychotropic medication, telling them to switch to homeopathy instead is effectively telling them to go off their mess altogether. This is unethical, especially when it’s done by someone who purports to being a medical professional.


Of course homeopathic preparations have no side effects; they have no active ingredients (if you don’t count the quality control issues I mentioned earlier). They also have no treatment effect.


You don’t think that homeopathic companies make big money as well?

And you say that the drug industry has suppressed positive studies about homeopathy... so you do agree that the scientific literature does say that homeopathy doesn’t work (even if you think this is because of a conspiracy)?


Except for a few things, such as homeopathy, everything that’s sold for human consumption is inspected and confirmed to be safe, whether it’s the medicine you take or the food you eat. Homeopathic “remedy” producers generally don’t even have to go through the checks that, say, bottled water would have to go through to confirm that it’s being produced in a way that contaminants or undeclared ingredients won’t make it into the product.


And you don’t know anyone who ends up taking homeopathic preparations long term?

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I really didn't know how prevelant this was so I looked up the National Institute for Health website. It sounds more like a cult than a medical mode. Like something one needs to "believe in" for the placebo effect to work on them. It also looks like FDA will be cracking down on the sales of certain products from the industry.

"Homeopathy, also known as homeopathic medicine, is a medical system that was developed in Germany more than 200 years ago. It’s based on two unconventional theories:

“Like cures like”—the notion that a disease can be cured by a substance that produces similar symptoms in healthy people “Law of minimum dose”—the notion that the lower the dose of the medication, the greater its effectiveness. Many homeopathic products are so diluted that no molecules of the original substance remain.

Homeopathic products come from plants (such as red onion, arnica [mountain herb], poison ivy, belladonna [deadly nightshade], and stinging nettle), minerals (such as white arsenic), or animals (such as crushed whole bees). Homeopathic products are often made as sugar pellets to be placed under the tongue; they may also be in other forms, such as ointments, gels, drops, creams, and tablets. Treatments are “individualized” or tailored to each person—it’s common for different people with the same condition to receive different treatments.





In 2016, the U.S. Federal Trade Commission (FTC) announced it will hold efficacy and safety claims for over-the-counter homeopathic drugs to the same standard as those for other products making similar claims. It further stated that companies must have the competent and reliable scientific evidence the FTC requires for health-related claims, including claims that a product can treat specific conditions.

In December 2017, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) proposed a new risk-based enforcement approach to homeopathic products. The proposed approach would call for more careful scrutiny of products with the greatest potential for risk, including:

Those with reported safety concerns Those that are not taken by mouth or rubbed on skin Those for vulnerable populationsThose that do not meet legal standards for quality, strength, or purity Those intended to be used for preventing or treating serious and/or life-threatening diseases and conditions. What the Science Says About the Effectiveness of Homeopathy

A 2015 comprehensive assessment of evidence by the Australian government’s National Health and Medical Research Council concluded that there is no reliable evidence that homeopathy is effective for any health condition.

Homeopathy is a controversial topic. A number of its key concepts don’t agree with fundamental scientific concepts. For example, it’s not possible to explain in scientific terms how a product containing little or no active ingredient can have any effect. This, in turn, creates major challenges to rigorous clinical investigation of such products. For example, researchers cannot confirm that an extremely dilute mixture contains what is listed on the label; nor have they been able to develop objective measures that show effects of extremely dilute products in the human body.

Another research challenge is that homeopathic treatments are highly individualized, and there is no uniform prescribing standard for homeopathic practitioners. There are hundreds of different homeopathic remedies, which can be prescribed in a variety of different dilutions for thousands of symptoms."

https://nccih.nih.gov/health/homeopathy

9-10ths_Penguin said:

That wasn’t actually one study; it was a meta-review of many studies of homeopathy.

The only studies out there that show that homeopathy has any effect beyond placebo are poor quality studies. There are countless high quality studies showing that homeopathy is not effective at treating any medical condition.

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I refer you to what #25 DavidMcCann said: The traditional testing methods are almost impossible to apply to any system of therapy which is patient-specific.

If these studies proved that homeopathy is not effective at treating any medical condition then no medical conditions would ever be cured by homeopathy, but such is not the case. You cannot say that all these cures were from the placebo effect. Nobody would use homeopathy if it was not curative.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Makes sense that treating his asthma with water didn’t work.

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It is not just water. It is a substance that has a lot of power to cure.

By the way, my husband has not been “cured” by any of the conventional medicines he has been taking for the last 25 years. All they do is maintain his condition so he can breathe and not die, but he still suffers a lot. Why is it that conventional medicine has not found a cure for asthma, cancer, and other diseases? Because it does not have the potential to cure jack squat. All conventional medicine does is manage symptoms, with rare exceptions.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

They can do considerable harm, actually:

- they often lead to delay of real treatment, since many homeopathy fans will try homeopathy for a while before seeing a real doctor. Over that time, the person’s condition can worsen. People have died because of this.

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People have also died from conventional drugs. I almost died one, wound up in the hospital from a combination of antidepressant drugs prescribed by a psychiatrist.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

- because homeopathic “remedies” aren’t subject to the normal government oversight and regulation that real medications have, they often have poor quality control, resulting in things like bacterial contamination, dangerously high levels of toxic ingredients, and undeclared active ingredients:

Massive recall of homeopathic kids’ products spotlights dubious health claims

Food agency warns of belladonna danger in US homeopathy product

Homeopathic Nasal Zinc Linked to Loss of Smell

homeopathic medicinal products: Topics by Science.gov

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I do not consider any of these products to be homeopathy. These are products that are called homeopathic but they have other ingredients. Homeopathic remedies are not packaged and sold on shelves with labels that make claims to cure specific conditions.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Hopefully. In the worst cases, the homeopathic preparation causes real harm, or the person’s condition gets worse because of lack of real treatment and is much harder to treat once they get seen by real doctors.

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Actually, it is the exact opposite situation. After five years on antidepressant drugs that did not do a thing for my depression, I finally tried to get off the drug I was on and I could not get off of it; I had severe withdrawal symptoms and became suicidal. These little things that psychiatrists omit telling patients is about the side effects and how difficult it will be to get off these drugs. Thank God I met a Baha’i in my community who had been seeing a homeopathic doctor who cured the manic-depression he had for 30 years prior. Within a month, I was able to get off the antidepressant drug with no withdrawal symptoms, and I was not depressed at all. I will never forget that because it was the first time I was ever really happy in my life. And that was only the beginning, because I continued to improve over the years.

Most people want a quick fix for depression and anxiety and that is why they go for psychotropic drugs. Little do they know the dangers because most people do not even bother to do any research, they just “trust the doctor.” I did a lot of research on psychotropic drugs while I was taking them. This was back before there was any internet and so I spent my time in the library reading the PDR, detail by detail. I knew what I was taking and what it was for and I knew all the side effects, but at that time I did not know of any alternatives.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Psychiatric drugs are serious business that need care when prescribing them, but they’re only prescribed when they’re better than the alternatives.

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Better than what alternatives? According to people I know who are on them they are prescribed as soon as someone complains of being depressed. It is called “symptom management” but it cures nothing. Sadly, my best Baha’i friend went to the psychiatrist and said he was depressed even though he never even met any criteria for depression. He was just having a few bad days. The psychiatrist put him on some dangerous drugs and now he cannot get off of them. Like most people, he was not going to try homeopathy because he wanted a quick fix and he trusted the psychiatrist.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

If someone does need psychotropic medication, telling them to switch to homeopathy instead is effectively telling them to go off their mess altogether. This is unethical, especially when it’s done by someone who purports to being a medical professional.

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Never would a competent homeopathic doctor tell anyone to go off their psychotropic medications. Just like any other doctor, they would wean them off and monitor them closely. There was even a time when I was going through a rough patch that my homeopathic doctor suggested my going on an antidepressant.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Of course homeopathic preparations have no side effects; they have no active ingredients (if you don’t count the quality control issues I mentioned earlier). They also have no treatment effect.

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That they have no treatment effect is patently false, as many people will attest to. Active ingredients, lol. It is not the molecules of the substance they start with that is curative, it is the preparation. It would not require a lot of research on the internet to understand how remedies are prepared and how they work.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

You don’t think that homeopathic companies make big money as well?

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No, they do not. I purchased a kit of 100 common homeopathic remedies from my doctor for about $30. When I went to an appointment and a remedy was prescribed it cost $5 and that lasted for eight weeks, till my next appointment. My naturopath sold me the remedy I was on for $5 for a vial that has lasted indefinitely. Moreover, homeopathic remedies do not ever expire. I still have it after over 10 years, because it lasts that long. Compare that to the cost of allopathic drugs, even just the copays when one has good health insurance.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

And you say that the drug industry has suppressed positive studies about homeopathy... so you do agree that the scientific literature does say that homeopathy doesn’t work (even if you think this is because of a conspiracy)?

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I am not really aware of any of what is going on with the drug or homeopathic industry. I completed my degree in 1997 and I have not kept up on things. But I have no doubt that there is a lot of corruption in the drug industry, because wherever there is big money, there is corruption.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Except for a few things, such as homeopathy, everything that’s sold for human consumption is inspected and confirmed to be safe, whether it’s the medicine you take or the food you eat. Homeopathic “remedy” producers generally don’t even have to go through the checks that, say, bottled water would have to go through to confirm that it’s being produced in a way that contaminants or undeclared ingredients won’t make it into the product.

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Maybe that is because there is nothing in it that could be harmful, since there are no molecules of the original substance left in a remedy after it has been prepared.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

And you don’t know anyone who ends up taking homeopathic preparations long term?

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Of course they do, but there is absolutely no harm caused by homeopathic remedies long term, as there is with psychotropic drugs. It is often necessary to be on remedies long term for people like me who have serious issues from childhood and have had depression and anxiety since they were a child. Cure does not happen overnight but after cure occurs there is no need for a remedy or any psychotropic drugs ever again. I have one homeopathic remedy I use now and sometimes I take it but only about once a year. All it does is stimulate the vital force and get me back on track if I have been going through a really difficult situation in my life.

Shadow Wolf said:

Zoloft launched me into a manic state, while Effexor kicked me into hypo-mania. But yet there are tons of people who can live a functional life because of psychotropic medications.

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Fine, if you consider functionality a worthwhile goal. I considered healing more important than functionality. There is a time for functionality and there is a time for healing. The thing is that these drugs are prescribed to help people through a rough patch and then people stay on them indefinitely when they are no longer necessary, just because they are afraid to go off of them. I know three people like that and I am sure there are many more. It is really sad because this has prevented them from any real healing they could have had if they had faced their problems and worked through them instead of masking the symptoms with these drugs.

Shadow Wolf said:

Finding something that works for me has been an adventure, but even Advil and Tums come with side effects. And when someone presents with suicidal ideations, the possible benefits are very likely to outweigh the possible risks.

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Again, it depends upon how you define “works.” If all people care about is being happy all the time maybe drugs are the way to go, but this is no different from drinking or recreational drugs. Sure, if someone is suicidal they might be in order, but they can also cause suicidal ideation. That is what happened to me, so the psychiatrist kept changing to other drugs until they finally ran out of drugs to try. He finally found a drug I was maintained on but it was not really helping me, just allowing me to function. Only when I finally went off that drug did any real healing begin.

Shadow Wolf said:

That post also shows your ignorance of how psychotropic medications and mental health treatment work, because pretty much anyone in the field, myself included, will emphasis that medications for most people are prescribed with the intention of them being used as a crutch. When they were last prescribed to me, it was to help get past the lack of motivation, fatigue, and other things that come along with depression that make it harder to do anything to address your depression, such as engaging in enjoyable activities or even getting out of bed. From their it is up to the client to participate in their treatment, which includes cognitive behavioral therapy to address issues revolving around the mental illness and to develop coping mechanisms and methods, with the goal being on eventually having less therapy and if possible less medication. Believe me, insurance doesn't want to pay for the services or medications any more or longer than they have to, and insurance probably has more pull and weight to throw around than pharma (pharma can make whatever they want, no one is getting it unless insurance covers it).

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I know all about mental health treatment. Not only was I on psychotropic drugs for five years, I was also a client in various different kinds of counseling for over 20 years, and I have a MA in Counseling Psychology. I also have a degree in homeopathy. All these studies took about seven years of my life.

Cognitive behavioral therapy is not curative. For people with serious psychological issues, it is just another band aid approach on something that needs surgery. Homeopathy along with 12 step programs and intensive counseling to get at the root of my issues is what cured me, but that took about 15 years of doing nothing else, except going to work. It was a three-pronged approach. I still had PTSD from grief reactions that lingered after that and it was not until I turned to God that changed markedly. I know that it is God because there is no other explanation for my ability to endure the grief I could never endure in the past. Counselors tried to help me with the grief to absolutely no avail so I finally stopped going to them about four years ago.

Subduction Zone said:

If you know how it works then you appear to know far more than your instructors did, since none of them seem to know how it works. You right now appear to be projecting. If anything you would have to be the one posting out of complete ignorance since whenever homeopathic "cures" have been tested they did no better than placebos. Unless you can find a ground breaking properly done peer reviewed study to the contrary.

In the U.S. homeopathic "medicine" has to come with a label that tells people that it essentially does nothing.

By the way, where does not go to get a "degree in homeopathic medicine"? That would be a first.

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It works by stimulating the vital force to heal the body, but that is not something that can be “studied” any more than the soul can be studied. That is what makes some people so mad. They want to pin everything down. I think that the vital force has something to do with the soul, but of course I could never prove that.

The medical establishment in the United States is corrupt. It is all about money. If it wasn’t then it would not cost 10-20 times as much in the United States for the same medical treatment one can get in Central or South America.

That does not mean that there are no good doctors who care about their patients. Most doctors care because they would not have become doctors just for the money when they could have been lawyers and make as much or more money.

I got my degree from the School of Homeopathy in Devon, UK .
The School of Homeopathy - online, correspondance and attendance

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Then enlighten us. How and why do you think it works? Why do you think that a "solution" with literally zero molecules of the active ingredient would have an effect?

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As I just told Subzone, homeopathy works by stimulating the vital force to heal the body, but that is not something that can be “studied” any more than the soul can be studied. That is what makes some people so mad. They want to pin everything down. I think that the vital force has something to do with the soul, but of course I could never prove that.

I do not expect you to “believe” that any more than you are going to believe in the unknowable unprovable God, but you started the thread so I feel obligated to respond as I am able...