the pope is a turkaphobe

Djamila said:

Well, when the Panzer Pope stories first erupted in the European press, there were furious denials from the Vatican. They admitted he was part of Hitler Youth but explained all German children were at the time, and the Pope did express sentiments of not supporting the Nazi regime at several points throughout his lifetime.

It wasn't enough for many, though. Jewish groups in Europe, many of them, were still annoyed.

Click to expand...

So you don't believe the Church I'm guessing. You honestly think Benedict survived as a close aid to John Paul II with Nazi leanings? What are you saying here exactly?

A man who was forced to be part of the Nazi Youth, (a legal obligation of the day,) whose father was in complete opposition to Nazism, whose own family members had been killed by Nazis; I say he is a triumph for the German people. A priest born of the ashes of Nazi Germany becoming Pope? He is both a triumph and a testament to the will of the German people.

But all that doesn't matter of course. He was in Hitler's Youth, case closed. Right?

We all mourned the loss of John Paul II. In fact his death renewed my faith in the Catholic Church at a time when I really only paid lip service to my religion. I think his memory and his way of leadership will live on in the minds of the world's people for a long time to come. However, he was also opposed to some of the more liberal topics confronting the Church, such as birth control.

Djamila said:

He was just a wonderful man, a humanitarian, compassionate, charismatic, all of these things that the new Pope isn't. Relations here have only gotten worse in his rule.

Click to expand...

Benedict's first encyclical is entitled 'God is Love,' and it is a treatise on how man was made for love. I ask you again, why is it not okay for a Christian authority, in times like this, to lament and warn against the belief that man is seemingly made for war, a belief held by extremist Muslims living in wrongful accordance to half of certain commandings of the Prophet Mohammad.

Matthew 10:39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Very similar to a Jihad.

Just read Midnight's explanation, RyanD. He explained it better than I did, and you still wish to fight about it - find another partner.

Ezzedean said:

The pope said ;
'Show me just what Muhammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'

Click to expand...

When I skimmed the article yesterday, though, he was quoting someone else. I don't know if he was tossing out that quote in support of it, or to demonstrate the wrongheadedness of it.

I'm rather spazzed out at the moment, leaving town tomorrow for a funeral. Perhaps someone with more brain cells to rub together that I have at the moment could examine the article more closely? Just a thought.

Ezzedean said:

Matthew 10:39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Very similar to a Jihad.

Click to expand...

In the non-warlike sense of Jihad, yes.

Booko said:

When I skimmed the article yesterday, though, he was quoting someone else. I don't know if he was tossing out that quote in support of it, or to demonstrate the wrongheadedness of it.

I'm rather spazzed out at the moment, leaving town tomorrow for a funeral. Perhaps someone with more brain cells to rub together that I have at the moment could examine the article more closely? Just a thought.

Click to expand...

Quite right;

In his speech at Regensburg University, the German-born pontiff explored the historical and philosophical differences between Islam and Christianity and the relationship between violence and faith.
Stressing that they were not his own words, he quoted Emperor Manual II Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire, the Orthodox Christian empire which had its capital in what is now the Turkish city of Istanbul.
The emperors words were, he said: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." Benedict said "I quote" twice to stress the words were not his and added that violence was "incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul".

Click to expand...

So to all you who were quick to judge, maybe you should have read the article properly, before passing judgement.

Ezzedean said:

The pope said ;
'Show me just what Muhammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'

Click to expand...

The Pope did not say that, he was quoting the writing in a 15th century document
to fellow German academics and church men , as part of his Talk, against war and terror.

I do not doubt that document was the churches belief at the time.
It says nothing about their belief today.

Such writings and sayings should be understood in their context; And not thought to be the belief of the person discussing them, unless his context was to support such views, which has not been shown to be the case.

Ezzedean's reply still makes sense?

And I knew from the beginning that he quoted another man. It doesn't change my impression of this incident or that Pope in general.

Well TBH I can't really see what's wrong with making a statement that's completely factual. Islam IS a religion on violence that preaches "by the sword" and I believe the Pope was right to quote as he did.

:beach:

Well TBH I can't really see what's wrong with making a statement that's completely factual. Islam IS a religion on violence that preaches "by the sword" and I believe the Pope was right to quote as he did.

Click to expand...

Always fun to see ignorant posts like this!

As far as the op goes... While the pope was just quoting someone, he did not disagree with the man he was quoting... Usually when you quote another person you either agree or disagree with what they are saying... Otherwise theres no point in quoting =)

Ryan2065 said:

As far as the op goes... While the pope was just quoting someone, he did not disagree with the man he was quoting... Usually when you quote another person you either agree or disagree with what they are saying... Otherwise theres no point in quoting =)

Click to expand...

I post things very frequently on RF that I neither agree nor disagree with, just to illustrate a point about what some religion teaches, or some point in science or politics or history.

Scholarly works do this all the time.

I've no idea what the Pope's opinion of the citation was, since I haven't seen a fuller context.

I imagine he won't be welcome in Turkey in November, not that many even Roman Catholic countries are scrambling to get a visit from this guy. There were protests throughout Turkey today, I saw the ones in Bodrum, Antalya, Istanbul, and Ankara on the news. Quite different, really.

In Bodrum they had a huge sign in English on the beach that said "**** the Vatican!", with all the Turkish beach queens in their string bikinis flashing victory signs and enjoying the sun. In Antalya they had Turkish flags and signs denouncing the Pope as a shame. In Istanbul they had more mixed protests - women, Islamists, etc. Looked like a normal, Turkish protest. And in Ankara they had almost no one, with those there waving, "Easy to be Pope, hard to be human." signs.

Booko said:

I post things very frequently on RF that I neither agree nor disagree with, just to illustrate a point about what some religion teaches, or some point in science or politics or history.

Scholarly works do this all the time.

I've no idea what the Pope's opinion of the citation was, since I haven't seen a fuller context.

Click to expand...

Ahh, but usually you either agree or disagree with the quote to some extent **edit** or are asking a question about it =) ... If the quote is about another religion, for example, you either agree or disagree with the quote regarding that religion. As far as the Pope's speech goes... He was giving a speech on the differences between Islam and Christianity and the relationship between violence and faith... To give this quote: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." and then not say if you agree or disagree with the quote is just wrong... Espically when he knew that it was important enough to stress that it was a quote and not his own words.

Booko said:

Was there another cardinal they hoped would be elevated instead?

Click to expand...

I was voting for Cardinal Sin out of the Phillipines, but frankly, he is too perfect just where he is, LOL.
I think I about died laughing when I first learned of him. Cardinal Sin, that is just SO rich.


Has anyone been able to dig up the exact text of the speech? No sign of it on the Vatican website. Victor? Anyone?

Frankly, I am holding off being critical of the pontiff until I can read his words.
He is a VERY smart man and I would need to see how he phrased what he did and what context he was saying it in, before giving an opinion.

I take it everyone here has read it. RIGHT?

*listens very hard*

Nope. Didn't think so. I rest my case, for now.

Djamila said:

I imagine he won't be welcome in Turkey in November, not that many even Roman Catholic countries are scrambling to get a visit from this guy. There were protests throughout Turkey today, I saw the ones in Bodrum, Antalya, Istanbul, and Ankara on the news. Quite different, really.

In Bodrum they had a huge sign in English on the beach that said "**** the Vatican!", with all the Turkish beach queens in their string bikinis flashing victory signs and enjoying the sun. In Antalya they had Turkish flags and signs denouncing the Pope as a shame. In Istanbul they had more mixed protests - women, Islamists, etc. Looked like a normal, Turkish protest. And in Ankara they had almost no one, with those there waving, "Easy to be Pope, hard to be human." signs.

Click to expand...

My only problem with this, Djamila, is where are these folks when Ahmedinejad makes the unquestionably vile remarks of the sort he does? He's actually willing to kill people, which is not something anyone says about the Pope.

Where are the protestors then? They're either silent, or lauding those remarks.

Sorry, but it's such hypocrisy. I'd laugh, but it ain't funny.

In that case, are we pretty much in agreement that religious leaders should be careful what they say in public, particularly on potentiallly inflammatory subjects?

first of all the pope didnt "say it" he was quoting a fourteenth century historical emperor who did say it, and its been cherry picked and taken out of context.

once again we see the hypocrisy in many muslims who do not speak out when speeches are made about perpetuating violence in the name of Allah but say one word of criticism perceived or otherwise and many take to the streets. once more the religion of peace shows the violence shimmering underneath. lets take a look at this extract from the same speech"god he said is not pleased by blood and not acting reasonably is contrary to gods nature" perhaps the religious people taking to the streets and burning effigies should heed that part of the speech too


the full speech can be found herehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5349578.stm

Flappycat said:

In that case, are we pretty much in agreement that religious leaders should be careful what they say in public, particularly on potentiallly inflammatory subjects?

Click to expand...

Of course they should be careful.

Are we in agreement on these points also?

• Media should not take quotes out of context
• People should not whip up furor for their own political gain
• People who cheer statements about wiping out countries from some leaders have no business complaining about the out-of-context comments of others who have no desire for violence and no military behind them

I hear there are demands for the Pope to apologize. I'd like to suggest His Holiness consider the following text for his apology:

I'm sorry you heard an out-of-context snippet of my speech and didn't bother to find the full context. I'm sorry you therefore missed the point, which was that religion should not be the source of war. That means my religion and your religion. I'm sorry you are unable to take the beam out of your own eye, in that you cheer on the genocidal comments of some of your leaders, while you spend your energy on protesting someone who means you no harm in the first place.

There you go...an "apology."

Pope Benedict is not JP2, but he's not an evil person out to kill anyone either. Give the man a break.

I've never understood that logic - the pot calling the kettle black, the hippo calling the elephant fat.

It doesn't matter, really, if the hippo calls the elephant fat. Whether or not the hippo is fat doesn't make a difference, the elephant still is.

Djamila said:

I've understood that logic - the pot calling the kettle black, the hippo calling the elephant fat.

It doesn't matter, really, if the hippo calls the elephant fat. Whether or not the hippo is fat doesn't make a difference, the elephant still is.

Click to expand...

i think i need doctor doolittle to translate that one!