Mark 16:16: does it really mean what it says? What does it say?

Disciple of Jesus said:

Mark 16:16

Note that, belief, is the thing that saves someone from being , presumably, sent to Hell.

However, at literal reading, it mentions baptism.
This...doesn't make sense, to have both meanings.

Baptized, here, more likely means, the belief in the Scripture, ex,baptize the nations.
Therefore, baptized, here, means baptized in the [religious belief, not a literal church baptism.
Thusly, belief saves, as the verse states[ belief and baptism meaning the same thing, here.

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Why would baptized mean belief and not baptized?

I think that Mark 16:16 which is part of the later addition to the end of Mark was written by an author who wanted to change the mysterious and powerful ending to Mark's gospel to one with a mission statement likely reflecting the later (post Mark) Judas tradition where the 12 disciples become the 11 and a community wishing to ceremonially distinguish itself from the Jews began to enforce a new ritual of baptism, perhaps, as opposed to circumcision.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

There’s a principle that’s used to interpret contracts that I think applies more broadly: the principle is that when somebody writes something down, they’re generally trying to communicate something meaningful.

This means that when the wording of a piece of text allows for multiple interpretations, any interpretations that render all or part of what’s being said meaningless or redundant are probably not what the author intended.

So you’re saying that “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” just means “he that believe that shall be saved.” IOW, you think that the “and be baptized” part conveys no meaning.

Why do you think Jesus said it, then?

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Considering how baptism is viewed in other verses, it probably does mean spiritual baptism

Like,
Acts of the Apostles 1:5

sealchan said:

Why would baptized mean belief and not baptized?

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It might mean that, hence the thread.

Disciple of Jesus said:

Considering how baptism is viewed in other verses, it probably does mean spiritual baptism

Like,
Acts of the Apostles 1:5

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You didn't actually answer my question.

So you take "baptism" to mean "spiritual baptism" which you take to mean "believe"... that makes the passage say, effectively "he who believes AND believes will be saved."

What do you think Jesus was trying to express with that redundant "and believes"?

Do you agree that he was probably trying to express something?

9-10ths_Penguin said:

You didn't actually answer my question.

So you take "baptism" to mean "spiritual baptism" which you take to mean "believe"... that makes the passage say, effectively "he who believes AND believes will be saved."

What do you think Jesus was trying to express with that redundant "and believes"?

Do you agree that he was probably trying to express something?

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In the context that verse is accurate, and literal, then I would say it doesn't really match the way baptism is considered, in many verses. The chuch baptism, really being the baptism of John, which is an redemption baptism, and nothing for salvation, hence the notation of that, in Acts of the Apostles 1:5
Acts of the Apostles 6:6
Is the same type of baptism, that is noted [non Johns baptism, elsewhere, in the text.

The premise does make a delineation, because baptized is being considered as accepting the Gospel, which, might mean something different from a specific belief, or, something besides, what the belief part, is referring to.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

You didn't actually answer my question.

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Because I didn't write the verse. There are more than one idea, then one idea. So it really isn't "literal", as a statement with correlating ideas, unless baptism is, something that directly correlates, to the belief.
Hence the thread.

Disciple of Jesus said:

The premise includes an interpretation.

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Oh I'm not disagreeing you. Quite the contrary. My comment was just to draw attention to the need to interpret the bible, as there are those on this forum that insist it should all be taken literally.

Disciple of Jesus said:

Mark 16:16

Note that, belief, is the thing that saves someone from being , presumably, sent to Hell.

However, at literal reading, it mentions baptism.
This...doesn't make sense, to have both meanings.

Baptized, here, more likely means, the belief in the Scripture, ex,baptize the nations.
Therefore, baptized, here, means baptized in the [religious belief, not a literal church baptism.
Thusly, belief saves, as the verse states[ belief and baptism meaning the same thing, here.

Click to expand...

Of course those who formally believe in Jesus should be baptized with water, but anyone can be baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

All it takes is a broken heart and contrite spirit to have the influence of the Holy Ghost all the time. As for believing in Jesus, I believe someone can believe in him without knowing about him, just as someone can be Buddhist without formally knowing about it.

Disciple of Jesus said:

Jesus called Peter Satan, then said He would build the church, upon that rock. Something to consider.

.

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What rock

robocop (actually) said:

Of course those who formally believe in Jesus should be baptized with water, but anyone can be baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

All it takes is a broken heart and contrite spirit to have the influence of the Holy Ghost all the time. As for believing in Jesus, I believe someone can believe in him without knowing about him, just as someone can be Buddhist without formally knowing about it.

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Also you can be baptized with said Holy Ghost and not know it.

Disciple of Jesus said:

Mark 16:16

Note that, belief, is the thing that saves someone from being , presumably, sent to Hell.

However, at literal reading, it mentions baptism.
This...doesn't make sense, to have both meanings.

Baptized, here, more likely means, the belief in the Scripture, ex,baptize the nations.
Therefore, baptized, here, means baptized in the [religious belief, not a literal church baptism.
Thusly, belief saves, as the verse states[ belief and baptism meaning the same thing, here.

Click to expand...

To me it means what it says. We are supposed to be doers of the word, and not hearers only.

We were told by the man with the keys, in Acts 2:38, to Repent, and be baptized in the name of the one that shed the blood, for the remission/forgiveness of sins, and then we can receive the gift of his Holy Spirit. If you just believe, and don't obey, then what good will it do you? Faith without works is dead.

I know it also says we are saved by faith, and not by works. But that means there is nothing we have done, or could do to deserve salvation. It was by God's grace (undeserved mercy) that we are saved through faith. He made a plan of salvation for us, that we did nothing to bring about, or deserve. But we still have to obey him.

It also says we are saved by works, and not by faith only. So we have to have the works of faith, that is obedience to what we have heard and believed.