Intelligent life on other planets?

Super Universe · Sep 12, 2006

wanderer085 said:
"God does dwell within humans, we call it our soul"

What evidence do you have of this?

Same evidence you have to disprove it.

Or maybe you have another explanation for why people die even though we keep the blood flowing and the lungs filling?

Jayhawker Soule · Sep 12, 2006

Super Universe said:
Same evidence you have to disprove it.

What a laughably childish statement:

What evidence do you have of Pixies?
Same evidence you have to disprove it.
What evidence do you have of Leprechauns?
Same evidence you have to disprove it.
What evidence do you have of Mermaids?
Same evidence you have to disprove it.

Not only is this inane on the face of it, but your silly attempt to shift the burden of proof is worthless at best.

Jayhawker Soule · Sep 12, 2006

cardero said:
With the exception of literary and entertainment value, I am not aware of these examples having influential agendas ...

So what?

Super Universe · Sep 12, 2006

Jayhawker Soule said:
What a laughably childish statement:

What evidence do you have of Pixies?
Same evidence you have to disprove it.

What evidence do you have of Leprechauns?
Same evidence you have to disprove it.

What evidence do you have of Mermaids?
Same evidence you have to disprove it.

Not only is this inane on the face of it, but your silly attempt to shift the burden of proof is worthless at best.

Then laugh.

cardero · Sep 13, 2006

sandy whitelinger said:
Perhaps you can offer some direct evidence of this, from Scripture, and not supposition?

THE OLD TESTAMENT

Certainly there are other civilizations, perhaps thousands of times older and wiser. And I believe intelligent beings from these civilizations are visiting us in spacecraft-and have been for some years.

- Dr. Charles Harvard Gibbs-Smith, aeronautical historian, Victoria and Albert Museum, London

GENESIS

Gen. 15:12
12 After a while the sun was about to set, and a deep sleep fell upon A´bram, and, look! a frightfully great darkness was falling upon him.
13 And he began to say to A´bram: You may know for sure that your seed will become an alien resident in a land not theirs, and they will have to serve them, and these will certainly afflict them for four hundred years.

In David Jacobs book Secret Life: Firsthand, Documented Accounts of UFO Abductions he explains that many abductees fall into a trance-like state usually immobile before being abducted. Many return only remembering fractions of their encounters or the messages that they have received from their captors.

Gen. 18:1,2
1 Afterward Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mam´re, while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent about the heat of the day. 2 When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him. When he caught sight of them he began running to meet them from the entrance of the tent and proceeded to bow down to the earth.

Current stories of strange visitors descending upon humans is not a unique concept delegated to our primitive prophets. In modern times strange beings (for example "Men In Black") sometimes visit UFO witnesses and usually carry ominous messages in the form of threats or prophetic messages of the future or sometimes careful warnings. Many receivers of these visitors usually do not have the luxury of breaking bread with these uninvited guests but in a few cases homeowners describe them as otherworldly, with an unusual curiosity for human devices. One host explained to a researcher that when he offered them food, he had to teach them how to use their eating utensils.

Gen. 32:2
2 Immediately Jacob said, when he saw them: The camp of God this is! Hence he called the name of that place Ma·ha·na´im.

Jacob through his dreaming as well as his waking life had confronted many angels of God. In Raymond Fowlers The Watchers he interviews abductee, Betty Andreasson and documents her account aboard a spacecraft where she too witnessed and described what she perceived to be many celestial beings and called them the army of God.

EXODUS

Exodus 13:21 And Jehovah was going ahead of them in the daytime in a pillar of cloud to lead them by the way, and in the nighttime in a pillar of fire to give them light to go in the daytime and nighttime. 22 The pillar of cloud would not move away from before the people in the daytime nor the pillar of fire in the nighttime.

From Rev. Barry Downings book The Bible And Flying Saucers he accentuates that there are in fact two Hebrew words which have been translated pillar in the RSV; ammud and mazzebah. In this passage the word ammud is used, which may mean a cylindrical column; thus the implication would seem to be that this UFO looked like a cylindrical column;

Any UFO researcher will explain that these cylindrical or column shaped UFOs are not uncommon even in our present society and represents 11% of all reported UFO sightings that are catalogued (this may not include the reported cigar shaped crafts). The pillar of cloud UFO many researchers speculate is the white (cloudlike) corona effect that is normally photographed of daylight UFO sightings most commonly associated with their unknown propellant system.

This Biblical UFO apparently leads the Israelites throughout their forty-year journey through the wilderness according to the testimony of the book of Exodus and goes by many different terms.
Exodus 13:21 Exodus 14:24-referred to as the Lord
Exodus 14:19- referred to as the angel of God
Exodus 14:20- referred to as the cloud
Exodus 14:24-referred to the pillar of fire and of cloud
Exodus 16:10- the glory of (brightness) of the Lord appeared in the cloud
Exodus 19:9,16- I am coming to you in a thick cloud
Exodus 19:18 -Mount Sanai was wrapped in smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire
Exodus 20:21-thick darkness
Exodus 23:30 - an angel
Exodus 23:23 Exodus 32:34 -my angel
Exodus 24:15 -the cloud covered the mountains
Exodus 24:16-the glory of the Lord settled on Mount Sinai
Exodus 33:14-my presence will go with you
Exodus 34:5 - the Lord descended in the cloud
Exodus 40:33-38- the cloud covered the tent

This pillar is also evident at the parting of the Red Sea in which the Israelites cross to escape their pursuers.
Exodus 14:19-22
19 Then the angel of the [true] God who was going ahead of the camp of Israel departed and went to their rear, and the pillar of cloud departed from their van and stood in the rear of them. 20 So it came in between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. On the one hand it proved to be a cloud together with darkness. On the other hand it kept lighting up the night. And this group did not come near that group all night long.
21 Moses now stretched his hand out over the sea; and Jehovah began making the sea go back by a strong east wind all night long and converting the sea basin into dry ground, and the waters were being split apart. 22 At length the sons of Israel went through the midst of the sea on dry land, while the waters were a wall to them on their right hand and on their left.

There have never been too many present UFO accounts as fortunate or helpful as this Biblical account but there have been many eyewitness testimonies to UFOs that were seen over lakes and other water reservoirs. Reports occasionally fall in the range of spotlights coming from the craft's underside which appeared to heat the body of water and some witnesses have even reported devices extending out of the craft possibly to extract water from the area.

(most likely to be continued)

cardero · Sep 13, 2006

Upon roaming the Internet I came across this site and even though I havent the chance to examine it thoroughly, this opening introduction speaks volumes about a primitive society coming to grips with an intelligence (possibly a technology) that they couldnt understand.

http://www.thelightside.org/EARSite/ears.html

[FONT=Arial, Sans-Serif]

[FONT=Arial, Sans-Serif]"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father."
- Jesus Christ, as quoted in John 16:25

[FONT=Arial, Sans-Serif][FONT=Arial, Sans-Serif]I've come to believe that the Bible contains a lot of information that was published long before it could be fully understood. The situation is much like giving a microwave oven to people who lived during the American Revolution. They might think it was somewhat useful even though they only understood part of its value. After all, they'd see that it was a neat durable box to put stuff in with a handle that clicks the door shut. And there's even a window in front so you can see what's in there without opening it.[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans-Serif][FONT=Arial, Sans-Serif]But they wouldn't see the REAL value of a microwave oven until electricity was available, would they? I think there's a lot of information like that in the Bible. Modern day events such as UFO sightings and breakthroughs in technology help us "plug it in" and really see what it was designed to teach us. The book itself has been around for years, but reading it now, in the light of the current world situation, helps shed a new kind of understanding on its content.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Sans-Serif][FONT=Arial, Sans-Serif]In your journey through the following pages, I invite you to join me in taking a new look at the contents of the Bible. I'll present the evidence, you play the role of the jury. Most of all, I hope you enjoy the ride and at the very least collect some good food for thought.[/FONT] [/FONT]

[/FONT]
[/FONT]

Jayhawker Soule · Sep 13, 2006

Posted by cardero:

<nonsense deleted />

<nonsense>

This Biblical UFO apparently leads the Israelites throughout their forty-year journey through the wilderness according to the testimony of the book of Exodus ...

</nonsense>

<nonsense deleted />

All this talk about the OT brings to mind a quote I discovered ...

There is nothing in all the world more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity ... You have a moral responsibility to be intelligent.

- Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.

Super Universe · Sep 13, 2006

Jayhawker Soule said:
Posted by cardero:
<nonsense deleted />

<nonsense>
This Biblical UFO apparently leads the Israelites throughout their forty-year journey through the wilderness according to the testimony of the book of Exodus ...
</nonsense>

<nonsense deleted />

All this talk about the OT brings to mind a quote I discovered ...

There is nothing in all the world more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity ... You have a moral responsibility to be intelligent.

- Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.

It seems that snippets of criticism are all that you are capable of. They are always short and to the point and tell us nothing of your own beliefs. You constantly promote negativity towards just about everything without adding any detail.

What are you so afraid of? It does not matter who is right and who is wrong, we all are wrong at times. Everything here is a learning experience. That is the best thing about RF, you learn about other people, what they are searching for and what they have found.

But you are so full of negativity that you would destroy a beautiful sand castle that a child worked all morning to build.

Do you ever build anything here?

Dr. Martin Luther King built something and it is continuing to grow to this day.

cardero · Sep 14, 2006

Jayhawker Soule said:
All this talk about the OT brings to mind a quote I discovered ...

There is nothing in all the world more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity ... You have a moral responsibility to be intelligent.

- Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.

It's All Speculative
- Rev. Patrick J. Cardero

Jayhawker Soule · Sep 14, 2006

cardero said:
It's All Speculative
- Rev. Patrick J. Cardero

No, Patrick, it isn't. There is a world of difference between honest, informed, and responsible inquiry into the history of a period or a people and comic book nonsense.

cardero · Sep 14, 2006

Jayhawker Soule said:
No, Patrick, it isn't. There is a world of difference between honest, informed, and responsible inquiry into the history of a period or a people and comic book nonsense.

Actually there isn't and with your permission I would like to try to prove you incorrect. May I PM you?

Jayhawker Soule · Sep 14, 2006

cardero said:
Actually there isn't and with your permission I would like to try to prove you incorrect. May I PM you?

Thank you for the courtesy of asking.

Unfortunately for you, the effort would be wasted: if everything is speculation there is no viable selection criteria or methodology and, therefore, no legitimate basis for "proving" any position correct or incorrect. You've already been defeated by your own silliness.

cardero · Sep 14, 2006

Jayhawker Soule said:
Thank you for the courtesy of asking.

Unfortunately for you, the effort would be wasted: if everything is speculation there is no viable selection criteria or methodology and, therefore, no legitimate basis for "proving" any position correct or incorrect. You've already been defeated by your own silliness.

I cannot possibly imagine what knowledge you could expend that would defend (or support) a primitive culture from following an intelligent other-wordly craft claiming God as a passenger around the wilderness and you are certainly within your rights to try but I prefer to handle one derogatory statement at a time and it is this sentence in question that I feel you could use enlightenment on.

Jayhawker writes: There is a world of difference between honest, informed, and responsible inquiry into the history of a period or a people and comic book nonsense.

Cardero challenges: Actually there isn't and with your permission I would like to try to prove you incorrect.

I will not distract from this thread any longer but the offer to correct you on this statement still stands but this time, if you are interested, you have my permission to PM me.

sandy whitelinger · Sep 14, 2006

cardero said:
THE OLD TESTAMENT

Certainly there are other civilizations, perhaps thousands of times older and wiser. And I believe intelligent beings from these civilizations are visiting us in spacecraft-and have been for some years.

- Dr. Charles Harvard Gibbs-Smith, aeronautical historian, Victoria and Albert Museum, London

GENESIS

Gen. 15:12
12 After a while the sun was about to set, and a deep sleep fell upon A´bram, and, look! a frightfully great darkness was falling upon him.
13 And he began to say to A´bram: You may know for sure that your seed will become an alien resident in a land not theirs, and they will have to serve them, and these will certainly afflict them for four hundred years.

In David Jacobs book Secret Life: Firsthand, Documented Accounts of UFO Abductions he explains that many abductees fall into a trance-like state usually immobile before being abducted. Many return only remembering fractions of their encounters or the messages that they have received from their captors.

Gen. 18:1,2
1 Afterward Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mam´re, while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent about the heat of the day. 2 When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him. When he caught sight of them he began running to meet them from the entrance of the tent and proceeded to bow down to the earth.

Current stories of strange visitors descending upon humans is not a unique concept delegated to our primitive prophets. In modern times strange beings (for example "Men In Black") sometimes visit UFO witnesses and usually carry ominous messages in the form of threats or prophetic messages of the future or sometimes careful warnings. Many receivers of these visitors usually do not have the luxury of breaking bread with these uninvited guests but in a few cases homeowners describe them as otherworldly, with an unusual curiosity for human devices. One host explained to a researcher that when he offered them food, he had to teach them how to use their eating utensils.

Gen. 32:2
2 Immediately Jacob said, when he saw them: The camp of God this is! Hence he called the name of that place Ma·ha·na´im.

Jacob through his dreaming as well as his waking life had confronted many angels of God. In Raymond Fowlers The Watchers he interviews abductee, Betty Andreasson and documents her account aboard a spacecraft where she too witnessed and described what she perceived to be many celestial beings and called them the army of God.

EXODUS

Exodus 13:21 And Jehovah was going ahead of them in the daytime in a pillar of cloud to lead them by the way, and in the nighttime in a pillar of fire to give them light to go in the daytime and nighttime. 22 The pillar of cloud would not move away from before the people in the daytime nor the pillar of fire in the nighttime.

From Rev. Barry Downings book The Bible And Flying Saucers he accentuates that there are in fact two Hebrew words which have been translated pillar in the RSV; ammud and mazzebah. In this passage the word ammud is used, which may mean a cylindrical column; thus the implication would seem to be that this UFO looked like a cylindrical column;

Any UFO researcher will explain that these cylindrical or column shaped UFOs are not uncommon even in our present society and represents 11% of all reported UFO sightings that are catalogued (this may not include the reported cigar shaped crafts). The pillar of cloud UFO many researchers speculate is the white (cloudlike) corona effect that is normally photographed of daylight UFO sightings most commonly associated with their unknown propellant system.

This Biblical UFO apparently leads the Israelites throughout their forty-year journey through the wilderness according to the testimony of the book of Exodus and goes by many different terms.
Exodus 13:21 Exodus 14:24-referred to as the Lord
Exodus 14:19- referred to as the angel of God
Exodus 14:20- referred to as the cloud
Exodus 14:24-referred to the pillar of fire and of cloud
Exodus 16:10- the glory of (brightness) of the Lord appeared in the cloud
Exodus 19:9,16- I am coming to you in a thick cloud
Exodus 19:18 -Mount Sanai was wrapped in smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire
Exodus 20:21-thick darkness
Exodus 23:30 - an angel
Exodus 23:23 Exodus 32:34 -my angel
Exodus 24:15 -the cloud covered the mountains
Exodus 24:16-the glory of the Lord settled on Mount Sinai
Exodus 33:14-my presence will go with you
Exodus 34:5 - the Lord descended in the cloud
Exodus 40:33-38- the cloud covered the tent

This pillar is also evident at the parting of the Red Sea in which the Israelites cross to escape their pursuers.
Exodus 14:19-22
19 Then the angel of the [true] God who was going ahead of the camp of Israel departed and went to their rear, and the pillar of cloud departed from their van and stood in the rear of them. 20 So it came in between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. On the one hand it proved to be a cloud together with darkness. On the other hand it kept lighting up the night. And this group did not come near that group all night long.
21 Moses now stretched his hand out over the sea; and Jehovah began making the sea go back by a strong east wind all night long and converting the sea basin into dry ground, and the waters were being split apart. 22 At length the sons of Israel went through the midst of the sea on dry land, while the waters were a wall to them on their right hand and on their left.

There have never been too many present UFO accounts as fortunate or helpful as this Biblical account but there have been many eyewitness testimonies to UFOs that were seen over lakes and other water reservoirs. Reports occasionally fall in the range of spotlights coming from the craft's underside which appeared to heat the body of water and some witnesses have even reported devices extending out of the craft possibly to extract water from the area.

(most likely to be continued)

That is some rather interesting interpretations to say the least. Some are just flat out wrong, ie. your first example reffered to Israel being in Egypt. But hey, enjoy yourself with that. I found some of it to quite amusing.

cardero · Sep 14, 2006

sandy whitelinger said:
That is some rather interesting interpretations to say the least.

I wish I could have returned the same compliment to your response.

sandy whitelinger · Sep 15, 2006

cardero said:
EXODUS

Exodus 13:21 And Jehovah was going ahead of them in the daytime in a pillar of cloud to lead them by the way, and in the nighttime in a pillar of fire to give them light to go in the daytime and nighttime. 22 The pillar of cloud would not move away from before the people in the daytime nor the pillar of fire in the nighttime.

From Rev. Barry Downings book The Bible And Flying Saucers he accentuates that there are in fact two Hebrew words which have been translated pillar in the RSV; ammud and mazzebah. In this passage the word ammud is used, which may mean a cylindrical column; thus the implication would seem to be that this UFO looked like a cylindrical column;

That the Lord "might" travel in an UFO is what I consider to be rather amusing yet since I asked for scripture that proved life on other planets this doesn't cut it.

Interpreting the heavenly host's appeances as "alien life" I don't have a problem with. Ascribing the the heavenly host as life from other planets is hogwash.

cardero · Sep 16, 2006

sandy whitelinger writes: That the Lord "might" travel in an UFO is what I consider to be rather amusing

Peculiar is the word that I would use and it is not the only time that this UFO is referenced in the OT but it also reappears in the NT as well. It seems that this phenomenon is the foundation of many religions, without the account as explained in the first five books of the Bible we would not have the religions we have come to know today. I am not about to debate whether the occupants in the craft were God or the Lord or angels with an agenda but what I am here to establish is that phenomenon does display intelligence far beyond what that eras primitive society was practicing. In this sense, I have fulfilled half of the OPs request.

sandy whitelinger writes: yet since I asked for scripture that proved life on other planets this doesn't cut it.

You will not locate scriptures of what the surface of Mars was like or read discussions of primitive scientists who have concluded that the moon is uninhabited because that society did not establish a science program or have the technology to launch people or probes into space to investigate such matters. What I did offer this debate was paralleling evidence from three prominent researchers (Professor of History, David M. Jacobs, Raymond E. Fowler, who has had 39 years in the study of extraterrestrial phenomenon and Rev. Barry Downing, a Presbyterian minister who has more than earned his degree in natural science and theology) all who have compelling evidence to believe that the phenomenon is extraterrestrial in origin. I also explained that the phenomenon was other worldly not only back then but even today. There is nothing that we have experienced yesterday or today that compares to the behavior of these intelligent beings. If we did, we could determine that at least some of these incidents have an earthly origin or explanation. Many cases dont and in that sense I believe I have at least speculated on the other half of OPs request because the phenomenon is still continuing and there are many interested individuals still researching an origin to this phenomenon.

sandy whitelinger writes: Interpreting the heavenly host's appeances as "alien life" I don't have a problem with. Ascribing the the heavenly host as life from other planets is hogwash.

Interpreting the Bible I do not have a problem with, interpreting the agenda and whether these beings have an origin that is extraterrestrial, heavenly or other dimensional I do not have a problem with. This is what I do understand:
1. That the beings expressed in the Bible had a firm agenda (for whatever reason) to establish a religion with the primitive culture at that time.
2. That these beings with their intelligence and superiority exploited this primitive culture to achieve these means.
3. That the tools and tactics of doing so were not of this world.

sandy whitelinger · Sep 17, 2006

cardero said:
Peculiar is the word that I would use and it is not the only time that this UFO is referenced in the OT but it also reappears in the NT as well.

The only hitch in your well thought out response is that it is not an "Unidentified" Flying Object. The Bible identifies it very clearly. It's a pillar of smoke by day and a pillar of fire by night.

ikitikitembo · Sep 17, 2006

Super Universe said:
It seems that snippets of criticism are all that you are capable of. They are always short and to the point and tell us nothing of your own beliefs. You constantly promote negativity towards just about everything without adding any detail.

What are you so afraid of? It does not matter who is right and who is wrong, we all are wrong at times. Everything here is a learning experience. That is the best thing about RF, you learn about other people, what they are searching for and what they have found.

But you are so full of negativity that you would destroy a beautiful sand castle that a child worked all morning to build.

Do you ever build anything here?

Dr. Martin Luther King built something and it is continuing to grow to this day.

BS. I've learned something from him.

cardero · Sep 17, 2006

ikitikitembo said:
BS. I've learned something from him.

As have I. Though his research and knowledge of the Old Testament is renowned and far exceeds my own understanding, his ignorance and lack of interest of the UFO Phenomenon, extraterrestrial research and sequential art (comic books) is glaringly evident.

Intelligent life on other planets?

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