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Works vs Doctrine

iam1me

Active Member
A work is something one does under law or precept. Changing my mind from "I can save myself" to "Christ only can save" is not a good deed, a work of the Mosaic Law, a task, or a witness to other people, etc. Just like thinking 2+2=5 then correcting to 2+2=4 isn't a religious work.

Incorrect - a work is simply something that one does, an action. Repentance, forgiving others, worship, etc. these are actions. If you think such things are required for salvation -as you have already stated -then you are in contradiction with the notion that no works are required of us. So which is it?

We are not judged on mental assert of doctrine. We are judged sinners or we are judged on the merits of Christ's cross. After repenting to think "Christ only saves", I then trust Jesus, by faith, and receive of His grace. God will no longer judge me for salvation based on my works, but on the mighty work of Christ. He will judge me for reward or loss of reward based on works, and a part of genuine salvation is being prompted to work.

So what of those who have not repented, who do not think "Christ only saves" - are they condemned? Because if so then you are saying that our actions determine if we are saved or not.

My position is not incompatible with being judged by works, for rewards or loss of rewards. The Bible is specific about this.

Do you recognize that the reward in question is eternal life? Is there salvation without eternal life?

Your good news seems to be "Don't struggle to do works to be saved, trust Jesus, then struggle to do Christian works to be saved, but be afraid, you can lose salvation." That isn't good news. The good news per the Bible is "Don't struggle to do works to be saved, trust Jesus."

I've already provided a wealth of scripture that directly contradicts your notion of the gospel. Jesus died for all - yet not all will be saved. We are called to follow him, carrying our cross daily, giving our lives to God. Through perseverance we will receive that which is promised.
 

iam1me

Active Member
There is no "gift" in works-based salvation otherwise it would not be a "gift". You do not work for a gift.
Secondly, the work of salvation was performed by Jesus, not by us.

False - I"ve already addressed this. Through Jesus' sacrifice he established the New Covenant through which salvation is attainable to any and all, and without favoritism. This is a gift that no one has earned. However, not all are saved - and that is because one must persevere in good works, in repentance, to receive that which is promised.

Let’s be clear about our terms here, because you keep using “saved”.

"Saved" is save in the past tense. Under works based salvation you are saving but are never saved. Saved is rescued. Saved is protected. Saved is free from destruction. Saved is an accomplished work. Saved is the term the bible uses.

Under a works based scenario you are saving but at no point have you been actually saved. It is not an accomplished but a current, ongoing task in the hope of a future result. You save for later. You save for college. You save because there is more work to do. There is no assurance of salvation because your salvation is not an accomplished task, and since the work was not accomplished by Jesus, you never receive the promised gift because there will always be something else you need or could do to earn it.

First off, if saved is a past-sense done deal - then why isn't everyone saved?

Secondly, you are incorrect. What salvation refers to is salvation from the Judgement we deserve at the end. That is future.


Those who are saved have the assurance of salvation. Those who save toward this end do not.Under your works bases soteriology no one is saved. They simply save until they die and hope its enough.

Incorrect - as taught by scripture, what is important is perseverance. You are to devote your whole life to God, not meet a particular quota of good works - as if you could stop at some point.


Not only did we not earn it, we cannot earn it on our own.

No one said you earn it on your own - it is only through Christ and his New Covenant that we have such an opportunity.

Yes, that would be our faith in Christ. If you have faith in something else, like works, your results will certainly vary.

Either salvation is a done deal or it isn't - make up your mind.


We will be judged by Christ, not by our deeds. Those who place their faith in Christ escape judgement altogether:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. (John 5:24)​

Scripture is crystal clear on this.

Christ will judge us by our deeds - as the scriptures plainly declare over and over and over again. See the parable of the Sheep and the Goats for instance (Matthew 25).



Note verse 6. It states God” will repay each person according to what they have done”. This is talking about reward, not salvation.

What will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? (Matthew 16:26)​

The answer to both questions is "nothing".

You can give nothing in exchange for your soul. “Nothingincludesworks” which is why we so desperately needed the free gift.

Is there salvation without eternal life?

Mark 8:34-38 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 35 For whoever wants to save their lifeb]">[b] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it. 36 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? 37 Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”​

Let’s not lose the focus of our attention…which is whether we are saved by faith or works. As you stated above, this is a summation of the Law and not of salvation. If we are saved by obeying the Law then we’re all in trouble.

The Law did not disappear with the New Covenant - but is in fact an essential component. For under the New Covenant we are to have the Law written on our hearts and minds - that we may obey it - and on this basis are said to be God's people.

Matthew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.​

Note the intended audience for James‘. He is speaking to believers. They already claim to have a saving faith. He’s now telling them how to recognize if that faith is real. If they have no works…no fruit...their faith is dead.

Don't go twisting and inverting the scriptures to make them agree with your false doctrine. James is clear in what he says: faith, if not accompanied by works, is dead and cannot save you (future).

At no point does James claim we are saved by works. He’s simply stating that we can recognize a saving faith…in ourselves or in others…by the fruit we produce.

There are many who claim to believe and have faith in Christ. But faith is invisible so we can’t see who has it and who doesn’t. Works allows faith to become visible. It is the evidence of our faith, but it is never the cause of our salvation.

False, James is clear that faith and works must come together - and that only together is salvation attainable.
 

iam1me

Active Member
We know enough about the thief.

We know Jesus didn’t tell him “Too late…you should have done a few more works”.

Neither did Jesus say “Don’t worry, be happy. Your prior works were enough to save you”.

I am being whimsical but I would expect this or something similar if our salvation were works-based.

Lastly, I think we can be fairly certain that he didn’t get off his cross, perform a work, and then get back on his cross to die.

As such, any notion our salvation is works-based was refuted by Jesus’ response to the thief.

You only demonstrate that you are unfamiliar with what the scriptures teach about works and salvation. The scriptures teach of perseverance in doing what one can until the end - not of meeting some quota by the end.

We are saved by works except when we are not??

Where in scripture do we find this?

Worse, you now claim a person who sins their whole life and repents at the very last moment fares better than someone born a Christian who sins during their life.

I am unaware of any church with such a works based, "last-gasp" soteriology. It is certainly inconsistent as it applies to the thief.

We are to persevere until the end. The thief did this - doing the only thing he was capable of at that point: repentance.

Aaah! So it’s better to not devote our lives to Christ and wait until we’re all on our death beds because accepting Christ too early could be fatal?

That would certainly be “Exhibit A” for works based salvation!

There are those who have attempted such things. It was once common practice to hold of baptism until the end. However, if you are intentionally waiting to accept and follow Christ until the last possible moment - then you intentionally did not persevere in the faith, planning instead to sneak in like a wolf in sheep's clothing. Do you think you can fool God?

This quote helps my assertion, not yours.

Any house of works will fall that is not based on the firm foundation of Christ. Notice the wise man is building a house on the rock. BOTH the wise man and the house survive. The foolish man built a house on sand, and the house fell with a great crash.

Nowhere in this verse does it state the man loses his life because he didn’t have good works. The house gets washed away but the man doesn’t drown. You are confusing salvation with reward.

At this point you are simply being intentionally obtuse. This parable immediately follows and explains what is said right before hand:

Matthew 7:21-24
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock....​

Audience @iam1me!

Jesus is talking to believers here as following him may involve martyrdom. Those seeking to preserve their life may lose it, and those willing to give their life for him will save it.

Martyrdom is one possibility, but is by no means the only thing being discussed here. Whether one is ultimately persecuted and killed for their beliefs is irrelevant to the larger truth: you must give your life to save it.

As stated previously, fruit shows our faith is alive. Fruit is not required for us to be saved. The thief had no fruit.

As previously pointed out - what you are saying is in contradiction to what the scriptures actually state: that eternal life is the reward for good works, and that without works your faith cannot save you.

If works were required, the thief would have had to produce some sort of fruit in order to be saved. Perhaps showing where he stored his cache so that it could be returned. Perhaps giving his ill begotten gains to the poor, offering to give a course on protecting your assets from folks like him, or even telling local authorities about accomplices, or where he fenced his wares.

None of that happened. He expressed faith in Christ. Christ didn’t tell him it was too late, nor did he require any of the “works” mentioned above.

Repentance and belief in Christ are themselves works. Indeed, these are foundational works that begin one's spiritual life under Christ.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

All our works, good and bad, will face the fire. Those works compelled by the Spirit survive. Works of the carnal man do not.

And depending upon the deeds which one perseveres in - good or bad - will determine whether or not one receives eternal life.


This has nothing to do with salvation but with reward. If this were about salvation, then the tax collector purchases his “free gift” by collecting no more than he has to and the soldier purchases his by being content with his wages.

You cannot purchase your salvation on your own which is why Jesus came.

It's late and I don't know how much more I'll be able to reply, so the rest of my response may have to wait until later. I'll give it a shot though.

Is there salvation without eternal life? Are all saved?
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
Many protestants tend to believe that salvation is not something to be earned, not something with any requirements on our end whatsoever. However, a comprehensive reading of the scriptures makes it clear that eternal life is a reward for our good works - and that without these works ones faith is meaningless.

Worse still, the thing that most protestants do hinge salvation upon is doctrine. You must accept their particular set of core doctrines for salvation. With doctrines like the Trinity - you aren't even required to understand the doctrine - just assent to it. However, the scriptures present no such list of doctrines but rather, again, bases the Judgement off of our deeds.

Consider the following passages:


James 2:14-20 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that r]">[r]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Romans 2:6-11 [God] will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

Matthew 16:24-27 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

Matthew 7:21-27
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”


Luke 6:43-46
“No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Luke 13:6-9 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’
8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”
There are many more such verses, but the above is a good sampling of the consistent teaching of the scriptures on the matter.

I suppose if you are a protestant christian, you will have to accept the whole christian bible as authoritative including all your quotes.
But the letters of James and Paul and text made up by aMatthew or aLuke or aMark or aJohn etc. have no authority for me because they were written by the church and are often not in accordance or harmony with the teachings of Jesus.

So the text marked red has no authority for me because they are not the teachings of Jesus. The blue text about putting the teachings of Jesus into practice is not about performing good works but about applying the teachings of Jesus in your life, these are the teachings of Q-lite, so the real historical teachings of Jesus.

The teaching of Jesus in Luke 6:43-45 mentioning fruit is also not about good works but is about not judging people by anything else than the results of their practical behaviour.

But you are correct that having the christian faith is not what saves a person but practising or implementing the teachings of Jesus. However that would make you a follower of Jesus instead of a christian. Christians follow the teachings of the church not the historical instructions of Jesus.
 
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iam1me

Active Member
Working or not working on the Trump campaign does nothing for your salvation. It is faith in Christ. We cannot purchase or barter for it with works.

When you support the bigotry, hate, and greed of men like Trump and his administration - that is your works. That is a testament of who you are and what you represent - and it is fundamentally in opposition to Christ's teachings. If one recants - great! But even now he maintains a 36% approval rating - and these are none other than brainwashed right-wing conservatives and neo-nazis.

We are all building, either on something solid or on sand.

We are either building on the foundation, the rock, that is Christ - or we are not. Only the prior count.

First you tell us works are required for salvation, now you argue against yourself and claim they are not? Do you belong to a church that actually backs this soteriology or is this simply something you came up with on your own?

Our evil works are not hidden. They will get thrown into the fire with our good works. If works are required for salvation, why is the thief getting a waiver?

Everyone has works to present. All works, good or bad, will be thrown into the fire. You are rewarded for any work that survives. You are not killed if they don’t. However you will come under judgement if you have no faith in Christ.

As the scriptures plainly declare - what matters is perseverance in doing good works until the end, not in filling some quota. And based upon these deeds we will be distinguished as one of two groups:

Matthew 25:34-36 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’​

OR

Matthew 25:41-43 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’​

And the distinguishing factor - as made abundantly clear here and elsewhere - is one's deeds. But please tell me how you plan on reducing this passage to say something entirely contradictory to what it tells us of the Judgement?

Your argument falls apart because your “gift” is not a “free” and it certainly isn’t a “gift” at all. Instead you substitute the free gift with something you must earn. For you, the “free” gift is only free if there is a constant and continuous purchase.

Your free gift has a slot and a sign that says “Insert work here or I’ll go away”. If we constantly have to work the gift was never free!

Your works are counted as your due…that is, if your works survive the fire it will be counted as your reward.

False - for the gift of the New Covenant, given to us through Christ's sacrifice, was given to us freely. This opportunity for salvation, this grace, we did not earn. By all rights we should be judged in our sin, end of story. But Christ has given us a means through which we might be saved.

You are correct. It is not enough to receive the word of God to be fruitful, but we must receive the word of God to be saved. This is what happened with the thief. His faith was accounted to him as righteousness, not fruit, and the righteous will not perish from the earth.

This is false - Paul makes it clear that God shows no favoritism and judges those who did not receive God's Word apart from God's Word.

Romans 2:12-16 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.​
 

iam1me

Active Member
I suppose if you are a protestant christian, you will have to accept the whole christian bible as authoritative including all your quotes.
But the letters of James and Paul have no authority for me because they were written by the church and are not in accordance or harmony with the teachings of Jesus.

So the text marked red has no authority for me because they are not the teachings of Jesus. The blue text about putting the teachings of Jesus into practice is not about performing good works but about applying the teachings of Jesus in your life, these are the teachings of Q-lite, so the real historical teachings of Jesus.

The teaching of Jesus in Luke 6:43-45 mentioning fruit is also not about good works but is about not judging people by anything else than the results of their practical behaviour.

But you are correct that having the christian faith is not what saves a person but practising or implementing the teachings of Jesus. However that would make you a follower of Jesus instead of a christian. Christians follow the teachings of the church not the historical instructions of Jesus.

You are in contradiction - for putting Jesus' teachings into practice directly correlates with doing good works. Jesus taught us to love God and our fellowman - and he exemplified this love by sacrificing himself for all. He similarly called us to give our lives in service to God and to doing good. Indeed - we were created for the purpose of doing good works.

You're interpretation of Luke 6 would require a detailed exegesis on why you think he isn't talking of works.

Also Christian = follower of Christ.
 
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Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
You are in contradiction - for putting Jesus' teachings into practice directly correlates with doing good works. Jesus taught us to love God and our fellowman - and he exemplified this love by sacrificing himself for all. He similarly called us to give our lives in service to God and to doing good. Indeed - we were created for the purpose of doing good works.
I am not a christian, so the teachings of Jesus in Q-lite (under the link below) never relate to christian teachings outside of Q-lite. In Q-lite there is nothing about a sacrifice made by Jesus.

Having said that, I do believe that the Jesus of Q-lite (whom I see as the historical Jesus) wants us to do the maximum of good, but he also instructs us to always offer those colours of our deeds back to the loving Father. 'Thy Will be Done' is the way Jesus instructs us how to keep offering away all the colours of our deeds (not just the good deeds, but all deeds).

So expressing and feeling love for the Father or for Jesus always comes first and if we serve others (His creation) with good deeds then we should always be aware that we are really serving Him and that He is the one who is really serving through us, we have created and can create nothing by ourselves.
 

iam1me

Active Member
I am not a christian, so the teachings of Jesus in Q-lite (under the link below) never relate to christian teachings outside of Q-lite. In Q-lite there is nothing about a sacrifice made by Jesus.

The idea of a Q document is nothing more than a hypothesis - no such document has actually been found to exist. Besides, Jesus' sacrifice was foretold by prophets long before hand.

Isaiah 53:5-6 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.​

Having said that, I do believe that the Jesus of Q-lite (whom I see as the historical Jesus) wants us to do the maximum of good, but he also instructs us to always offer those colours of our deeds back to the loving Father. 'Thy Will be Done' is the way Jesus instructs us how to keep offering away all the colours of our deeds (not just the good deeds, but all deeds).

The colours of our deeds?

So expressing and feeling love for the Father or for Jesus always comes first and if we serve others (His creation) with good deeds then we should always be aware that we are really serving Him and that He is the one who is really serving through us, we have created and can create nothing by ourselves.

The love spoken of by Jesus is a matter of action, not of feelings (not to say feelings do not accompany such actions). God isn't looking for people who feel good.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
The idea of a Q document is nothing more than a hypothesis - no such document has actually been found to exist. Besides, Jesus' sacrifice was foretold by prophets long before hand.

The colours of our deeds?

The love spoken of by Jesus is a matter of action, not of feelings (not to say feelings do not accompany such actions). God isn't looking for people who feel good.

A mother loves her baby because she automatically feels love, not because it is her duty to feel love. Jesus calls God 'Abba' for a reason, because he feels love for his Father, a similar love that he would have felt for his natural father.
So the path that Jesus teaches us is a path of love and duty, in that order. The goal is not to enjoy the feeling of love but love comes automatically.
If you don't feel any love for Jesus then perhaps you should become a buddhist? If you do your duty and feel no love, then you are doing something wrong.

I am not a christian, I don't believe in the New Testament writings nor do I read the Jewish scriptures or the Koran but I admire the teachings of Jesus in Q-lite.

If you perform an action then that automatically creates colours in your mind.
If you scold someone angrily the colour will be different than if you lovingly help someone carry a heavy load.
The teachings of Jesus in Q-lite teach you how to avoid getting your mind coloured so your mind will automatically move in the direction of the Rule ("kingdom") of God or Holy Spirit who has no colours. This Rule of God should be your only goal according to the teachings of Jesus.

But as a christian it is better to follow the teachings of the christian church you join.
 

iam1me

Active Member
A mother loves her baby because she automatically feels love, not because it is her duty to feel love. Jesus calls God 'Abba' for a reason, because he feels love for his Father, a similar love that he would have felt for his natural father.
So the path that Jesus teaches us is a path of love and duty, in that order. The goal is not to enjoy the feeling of love but love comes automatically.
If you don't feel any love for Jesus then perhaps you should become a buddhist? If you do your duty and feel no love, then you are doing something wrong.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with feelings - to the contrary I said that feelings do accompany the love which Christ speaks of, but it would be a silly error to think that when Jesus is speaking of love all he is talking about are feelings. Feelings are fickle. The love that Christ speaks of goes above and beyond mere feelings - for even when we don't feel lovey-dovery, we can still perform acts of love. Even towards those that hate us and do us wrong - we can love them. Even if they anger us or make us sad - even then we can love them. It is thus far superior to the love of which you speak.

I am not a christian, I don't believe in the New Testament writings nor do I read the Jewish scriptures or the Koran but I admire the teachings of Jesus in Q-lite.

A hypothetical, non-existent work that contains watered down Christianity.

If you perform an action then that automatically creates colours in your mind.
If you scold someone angrily the colour will be different than if you lovingly help someone carry a heavy load.
The teachings of Jesus in Q-lite teach you how to avoid getting your mind coloured so your mind will automatically move in the direction of the Rule ("kingdom") of God or Holy Spirit who has no colours. This Rule of God should be your only goal according to the teachings of Jesus.

There are no "colours in your mind" in Jesus' teachings. Besides, what you are describing - this automatic, effortless, unthinking reaction - is far more reminiscent of Taoism or Buddhism than Christianity, where it is important that they don't accumulate karma by intentionally doing good or evil. In Christianity, you do good even when you are tempted by evil - you actively choose one over the other. And temptation never goes away, at least not in this life.

Romans 7:21-25
So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful natured]">[d] a slave to the law of sin.
But as a christian it is better to follow the teachings of the christian church you join.

False- as a Christian your goal should be to love God and your fellowman in truth. This may mean departing from a church you joined.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
A work is something one does under law or precept. Changing my mind from "I can save myself" to "Christ only can save" is not a good deed, a work of the Mosaic Law, a task, or a witness to other people, etc. Just like thinking 2+2=5 then correcting to 2+2=4 isn't a religious work.

Incorrect - a work is simply something that one does, an action. Repentance, forgiving others, worship, etc. these are actions. If you think such things are required for salvation -as you have already stated -then you are in contradiction with the notion that no works are required of us. So which is it?

You are confusing the works of man with the works of the Spirit.

There is no contradiction with the statement from @BilliardsBall. Regeneration is a work of the Spirit and not a work of man.

False - I"ve already addressed this. Through Jesus' sacrifice he established the New Covenant through which salvation is attainable to any and all, and without favoritism. This is a gift that no one has earned.

Why on earth (or heaven) is Jesus coming to establish a New Covenant of works when salvation is attainable under the Old? Under this criteria, the Law was a free gift also, and Moses attained it when he came back with the tablets!

First off, if saved is a past-sense done deal - then why isn't everyone saved?

Has everyone accepted Christ? Has everyone been regenerated?

Look at the scripture iam1me. Those who believe in Christ are saved...past tense. It doesn't say "you now have the potential to be saved" as you're claiming here.

Secondly, you are incorrect. What salvation refers to is salvation from the Judgement we deserve at the end. That is future.

Nah.

We are judged immediately by our actions or Adam and Eve would never have been kicked out of the Garden. You are confusing judgment with Judgement Day.

Incorrect - as taught by scripture, what is important is perseverance. You are to devote your whole life to God, not meet a particular quota of good works - as if you could stop at some point.

Perseverance is important, but not salvational. We are saved once we believe in Christ and are born again. If perseverance were salvational then the New Covenant would be no different from the Old. Once you are born again the Spirit continues to work within you which is how you know you have been saved...your faith will not be dead.


No one said you earn it on your own - it is only through Christ and his New Covenant that we have such an opportunity.

Opportunity for what? To earn it on your own???

That's EXACTLY what you're saying.

Either salvation is a done deal or it isn't - make up your mind.

You are too funny iam1me!

Salvation is a done deal because of Christ's work on the cross.

It is never a "done deal" if you have to work for it. There will always be more that you could have done. You therefore take the free gift and hold it out as a carrot before the horse. Always there, just beyond reach, never truly attainable, never a done deal.

We will be judged by Christ, not by our deeds. Those who place their faith in Christ escape judgement altogether:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. (John 5:24)
Scripture is crystal clear on this.

Christ will judge us by our deeds - as the scriptures plainly declare over and over and over again. See the parable of the Sheep and the Goats for instance (Matthew 25).

You are proof texting again.

I need you to actually address John 5:24 rather than circumvent it. Tell us why those who hear and believe Jesus no longer have eternal life and will be judged. Tell us why, in your own words, what Jesus stated is not quite true.

After your address we will can go on to the Sheep and Goats. Then you can then give us your interpretation which explains why one isn't quite true while the other is more correct, and we can give you our interpretation which makes them both equally correct.

Is there salvation without eternal life?

I do not believe we are killed but I do believe we are punished, but that's a different subject altogether.


Mark 8:34-38 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 35 For whoever wants to save their lifeb]">[b] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it. 36 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? 37 Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”

Not the last sentence. "If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will....

1. Be ashamed of them or
2. Kill them​

...when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels.

Which?

Note the intended audience for James‘. He is speaking to believers. They already claim to have a saving faith. He’s now telling them how to recognize if that faith is real. If they have no works…no fruit...their faith is dead.

Don't go twisting and inverting the scriptures to make them agree with your false doctrine. James is clear in what he says: faith, if not accompanied by works, is dead and cannot save you (future).

Context, iam1me, context. It's a difficult concept when the only thing you've been schooled in is proof-texting.

James is talking to believers. He's telling them how to recognize their faith is real. It's a different audience than that of Paul. There is nothing "twisted or inverted" about it. That's simply another charge you levy without basis...like the one you levy against the church.

Speaking of which, your soteriology appear to be one of your own personal brand, and certainly not shared or promoted by any church that I am aware of. Of course I could be wrong, I never claim to be familiar with the teachings of all the churches because there are simply too many of them. But at the very least your teaching would be considered heretical by any church in my neighborhood (and I live in a rather large neighborhood), and by any major religious denomination.

Are you the only one with this truth or are there others?


False, James is clear that faith and works must come together - and that only together is salvation attainable.

Simply stating "false" is insufficient iam1me. You need to tell us why. I just demonstrated why works is evidence of faith but not the cause of it. I even used the scriptures you've been quoting to evidence my point, such as James preaching to believers.

You need to show why this evidence is not true. You confuse reward with salvation which is common with a work-based soteriology.

I have more responses later, but unfortunately I am now at work.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
There are hundreds of scriptures that prove otherwise. Christianity is not a lazy faith. Salvation cannot exist without works justified by christ and faith as a foundation of that righteous works.

There is no works without god
There is no god without fiath

faith without works is dead; you need both because in them both your salvation is justifed by christ through faith which is the foundation of righteous works through god.

It has nothing to do with man nor the law.

Yes, works are good evidence of a person's salvation. But God judges Christians for works for reward, and God has judged/condemned/slain Jesus for salvation.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Incorrect - a work is simply something that one does, an action. Repentance, forgiving others, worship, etc. these are actions. If you think such things are required for salvation -as you have already stated -then you are in contradiction with the notion that no works are required of us. So which is it?



So what of those who have not repented, who do not think "Christ only saves" - are they condemned? Because if so then you are saying that our actions determine if we are saved or not.



Do you recognize that the reward in question is eternal life? Is there salvation without eternal life?



I've already provided a wealth of scripture that directly contradicts your notion of the gospel. Jesus died for all - yet not all will be saved. We are called to follow him, carrying our cross daily, giving our lives to God. Through perseverance we will receive that which is promised.

No works are required of us for salvation, as expressly stated in Romans 4 and elsewhere.

People are saved by trusting in Jesus, or have free will to reject God. Those who knowingly reject Jesus are condemned on that basis--"only one unforgivable sin".

The rewards in question are not eternal life. All born again Christians have eternal life. But throughout the NT's teaching on the judgment for Christians, the judgment is for rewards and loss of rewards. Four passages speak of crowns. Paul speaks of "being saved by the skin of one's teeth", meaning in Heaven but not many works there, etc.

Jesus DID die for all, but not all will be saved. 100% correct. However, we are not saved by "carrying the cross daily" or "by perseverance". Anyone who trusts in Christ is saved and has assurance. For example, John 3:16, "Whoever trusts me HAS eternal life and DOES NOT come into judgment (to perish)."
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Yes, works are good evidence of a person's salvation. But God judges Christians for works for reward, and God has judged/condemned/slain Jesus for salvation.

Its faith/righteous works= salvation

Faith=believers trust in god

Righteous works=Gods work through believer to act on gods behalf (salavation through believer from god through works and trust)

Trust in god is through righteous works not as a result of not a requirement for it; which means grace)

aka faith of the believer is through righteous works from god both, not a result of it.

God judges you by your works; so, without righteous works, your faith is not justified in christ. Why? because god says without righteous justified works through christ, works come from self and that self is not justified by christ but by the man. It becomes unrighteous works which is not a means of salvation.

When your faith is not justified that person is not saved.

What you do (not the reward of it) needs to be justified in christ for it to be a part of your trust in god. When you show god you love him by your service to him like christ you are given grace from christ because through him you served him and not from yourself nor justified from yourself. That is the whole of salvation. There are lots of parts of it.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
No works are required of us for salvation, as expressly stated in Romans 4 and elsewhere.

People are saved by trusting in Jesus, or have free will to reject God. Those who knowingly reject Jesus are condemned on that basis--"only one unforgivable sin".

The rewards in question are not eternal life. All born again Christians have eternal life. But throughout the NT's teaching on the judgment for Christians, the judgment is for rewards and loss of rewards. Four passages speak of crowns. Paul speaks of "being saved by the skin of one's teeth", meaning in Heaven but not many works there, etc.

Jesus DID die for all, but not all will be saved. 100% correct. However, we are not saved by "carrying the cross daily" or "by perseverance". Anyone who trusts in Christ is saved and has assurance. For example, John 3:16, "Whoever trusts me HAS eternal life and DOES NOT come into judgment (to perish)."


Get the word required from your mind it may make more sense.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Yes, works are good evidence of a person's salvation. But God judges Christians for works for reward, and God has judged/condemned/slain Jesus for salvation.

If it were a reward it would be something you are required to do to be saved. Since you are not requied (grace) your works/faith are already justified by christ. When you have both, you act your salvation in grace and without reward.

You are going backward with your points.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
You show your faith through righteous works.

God works through you and in you in order for you live out your salvation and experience his grace. When you do that, your rewards are the result of your actions and your actions are the service to which is from god by your faith. Through HIS works, you are justified by christ. In HIS works, you are saved.

You still do works its just not yours to claim.

It is not a requirement from you.

The bile says one cannot do anything of his own will but through christ. Once you seperated Gods works from His salvation Through you of faith. By definition, without Him in you with whom that you serve, you is not saved.

I am just being blunt not judging your personal salvation.

Faith is through christ not through you. You do nothing. Once you do something of your own will you are no longer saved. When you do works through gods will justified by christ, you are.

Its like a tug of war inside you. Do christ will or your own. Its a contradiction for you to do your will and still believe you are saved. Instead, works are through him and because you do works by his lead, you are saved by your faith and his works through you.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Its faith/righteous works= salvation

Faith=believers trust in god

Righteous works=Gods work through believer to act on gods behalf (salavation through believer from god through works and trust)

Trust in god is through righteous works not as a result of not a requirement for it; which means grace)

aka faith of the believer is through righteous works from god both, not a result of it.

God judges you by your works; so, without righteous works, your faith is not justified in christ. Why? because god says without righteous justified works through christ, works come from self and that self is not justified by christ but by the man. It becomes unrighteous works which is not a means of salvation.

When your faith is not justified that person is not saved.

What you do (not the reward of it) needs to be justified in christ for it to be a part of your trust in god. When you show god you love him by your service to him like christ you are given grace from christ because through him you served him and not from yourself nor justified from yourself. That is the whole of salvation. There are lots of parts of it.

I believe there are hundreds of verses in both testaments that say "trust God, this is salvation and the only way to salvation." Do you have a verse that demonstrates your claim that "When you show god you love him by your service to him like christ you are given grace"?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
If it were a reward it would be something you are required to do to be saved. Since you are not requied (grace) your works/faith are already justified by christ. When you have both, you act your salvation in grace and without reward.

You are going backward with your points.

Sorry for the confusion. Salvation is not a reward:

Salvation is a gift (unearned).

Christians are judged for rewards (earned).
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Basically, when you seperate works you are telling god I dont need you to do anything in (no holy spirit) me, I have faith alone, so I can handle this without you.
I believe there are hundreds of verses in both testaments that say "trust God, this is salvation and the only way to salvation." Do you have a verse that demonstrates your claim that "When you show god you love him by your service to him like christ you are given grace"?

Of course I do. Ive already posted them.

They are not seperate. Just look at the examples of all the prophets, apostles, and jesus himself.

His disciple did not need to nor was required to carry christs cross and help him out. He wanted to.

Acts/righteous works

through-from-god not from man

is a default to ones faith in christ and thus his salvation.

If I post those verses again, will you go through each one and explain:

how god working through a person in his salvation is not in the bible?

In other words, prove god has nothing to do with a believers faith and righteous works that are justified by christ in his salvation rather than by man?


Basically, youre saying: I dont believe you god that you will work in me my salvation. Im much happier siting from afar and watch every other believer, and prophet, and christ serve you. Im much happy with my definition of faith not yours.
 
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