John 17

Hi everyone

Interested in some thoughts on this chapter, and Gospel in general. I've always found John quite enigmatic and interesting, in particular trying to unpack the metaphysics of it.

John 1 and John 17 together are quite interesting, but with John 17 the one thing I'm interested in hearing from others is the notion God praying to God, and in a sense, God expressing hope in itself.

The common answer I find is that, in John 17, Jesus is simply demonstrating how to pray. However, is there a deeper meaning to the prayer, and the act of the prayer itself, given that it is from Jesus?

Thanks!

OutbackGer said:

Hi everyone

Interested in some thoughts on this chapter, and Gospel in general. I've always found John quite enigmatic and interesting, in particular trying to unpack the metaphysics of it.

John 1 and John 17 together are quite interesting, but with John 17 the one thing I'm interested in hearing from others is the notion God praying to God, and in a sense, God expressing hope in itself.

The common answer I find is that, in John 17, Jesus is simply demonstrating how to pray. However, is there a deeper meaning to the prayer, and the act of the prayer itself, given that it is from Jesus?

Thanks!

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To me and many others, Jesus is NOT God, so can pray to God. Myself I find Trinitarians to be increasingly frightening and I increasingly avoid even talking to them. I just can't imagine where they get these ideas. I'm going to stop short of an actual attack on them. And no the Mormons did not influence my thinking on the matter. Clear back in 1974 when I first started with religion, the idea of the trinity was a huge put off almost immediately. Maybe just reading the KJV for yourself and not following the fantasies that the priests and preachers put out would be a start?

OutbackGer said:

Hi everyone

Interested in some thoughts on this chapter, and Gospel in general. I've always found John quite enigmatic and interesting, in particular trying to unpack the metaphysics of it.

John 1 and John 17 together are quite interesting, but with John 17 the one thing I'm interested in hearing from others is the notion God praying to God, and in a sense, God expressing hope in itself.

The common answer I find is that, in John 17, Jesus is simply demonstrating how to pray. However, is there a deeper meaning to the prayer, and the act of the prayer itself, given that it is from Jesus?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

NOW I see that you are converting to Judaism. So, why would you even care about Jesus? Are you looking for a way for the Christian Bible to disprove its self? Why bother? If you don't like Christianity, just leave, why wait? What about John 14:6 No man cometh to the Father except through me. ? The Jews don't seem worried that G_d will burn them in hell. Did you know that there are at least three heavens? Maybe the Jews just figure they'll be in the third Heaven and the rest of the כלבים גויים will be in the lower ones?

I left Christianity and became Muslim out of frustration with the way that Christians seemed to defy the very words of Jesus Christ in responding to their enemies. To me, at that point if that was American Christianity, then Jesus Christ was not real! It took me over 7 years for my ardor to cool, and it was the Mormons that cared for me to bring me back. So, despite the fact that I have no respect for their leaders, the Mormon masses are sweet and loving and seeking Jesus Christ.

Go your way in peace and I hope that you find that which feels real to you.

Sorry wasn't looking for a debate or anything offensive, I enjoy reading and studying and I thought the DIR forum was a place of informative/non-debate discussion.

If there is a more suitable place for this type of discussion please let me know as I'm still new here. Maybe this should have gone in the theological concepts forum?

OutbackGer said:

Sorry wasn't looking for a debate or anything offensive, I enjoy reading and studying and I thought the DIR forum was a place of informative/non-debate discussion.

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I'm sorry to have been so rough on you.

Hi Moderators

Please feel free to move this to another suitable forum, or close the thread if that's easier.

Thanks

OutbackGer said:

Hi everyone

Interested in some thoughts on this chapter, and Gospel in general. I've always found John quite enigmatic and interesting, in particular trying to unpack the metaphysics of it.

John 1 and John 17 together are quite interesting, but with John 17 the one thing I'm interested in hearing from others is the notion God praying to God, and in a sense, God expressing hope in itself.

The common answer I find is that, in John 17, Jesus is simply demonstrating how to pray. However, is there a deeper meaning to the prayer, and the act of the prayer itself, given that it is from Jesus?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Yes it was God praying to God in a way. However, the point is that while Jesus was in the flesh; He was under all the same rules we are under. He had to pray just like we do. But not just that. He also had to eat, sleep, drink. He was even a baby that learned to walk, talk and likely even had to memorize many scriptures from the Torah and Tanakh. For Jesus (and anyone who wants to be spiritual) man does not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Therefore, for Jesus prayer(daily communion with God) was just as important as eating, sleeping etc. Actually to be honest; more important!

While Jesus was in the flesh prayer was just as important for Him as anyone else.

So when you think of it in context; it's no surprise that Jesus was praying. This whole question comes back to the "hypostatic union". Which is the combination of Divine and human attributes in Jesus Christ.

It's important to remember that everything Jesus did in the flesh was for our sakes. I recently made a thread on this very topic.

OutbackGer said:

Hi everyone

Interested in some thoughts on this chapter, and Gospel in general. I've always found John quite enigmatic and interesting, in particular trying to unpack the metaphysics of it.

John 1 and John 17 together are quite interesting, but with John 17 the one thing I'm interested in hearing from others is the notion God praying to God, and in a sense, God expressing hope in itself.

The common answer I find is that, in John 17, Jesus is simply demonstrating how to pray. However, is there a deeper meaning to the prayer, and the act of the prayer itself, given that it is from Jesus?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

This chapter contains a very special couple of verses: John 17:20-21 "(NIV) My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me." Which is part of a brief prayer. In it Jesus prays that every person who accepts his message will be unified.

He is somewhat enigmatic, but if you have trouble with the language it may help to overlay it with the first few chapters of John. When he talks about the glory he had with the Father before the world he may be talking about the 'Light' mentioned in John 1 or possibly the Logos or both. In John 17:9 he says he is not praying for all the world but only for those given to him. This strongly connects with his speech in John 3 where he says the light has divided the good from the bad. The prayer is like a restatement and sweeps through the themes put forward in the first part of John.

Also I point out John 17:26 where in his prayer he says "...I have made you (the Father) known to them (the disciples) and will continue to make you known to them..." Which also strongly connects with his theme in John of continuous manna, revelation to all. It seems to me a catholic interpretation of the Jewish prophets, very positive and upbeat, very inclusive. In a way it is saying the future is now.

Cheers guys, thanks for those responses. That was basically my intention with this thread

OutbackGer said:

The common answer I find is that, in John 17, Jesus is simply demonstrating how to pray. However, is there a deeper meaning to the prayer, and the act of the prayer itself, given that it is from Jesus?

Click to expand...

John is particularly hard to grasp. This part has to do with Jesus' glorification and prayer for the Disciples.
'The prayer on behalf of the disciples is an extension of the prayer for his own glorification, for it is in the perseverance and mission of these disciples that the name of God, given to Jesus, will be glorified on earth. The theme of opposition between the disciples and the world, now appears in the final prayer of Jesus. The disciples are to be left in the world, but they do not belong to the world, any more than their master's kingdom belongs to this world. Because they are aliens in the world, their very presence provokes trouble. Jesus has given them God's word and has sent them into the world but the world reacts with hatred. "I do not pray for the world".

Vs 9-16 The Disciples and the World
17-19 The consecration of the Disciples and of Jesus
"The high-priestly prayer of John17 has an atmosphere not unlike that of the epistle to the Hebrews where Jesus is portrayed as a high priest in heaven, making intercession for men. In Heb 9 Jesus offered himself as a sacrificial victim, a thought that may correspond to John 17. John 17 :19 has Jesus consecrating himself, so that his disciples may be consecrated-disciples who are one with him.

Is it worth examining the metaphysics of God expressing hope/payer in God within a Trinity? Or would that be reading too much into a mystery that no one can really begin to comprehend?

I think from the posts above John 1 and John 3 contain insights that could allow for some contemplation. I also want to mention that I own the commentary of John written by Calvin (which I have read) and also Aquinas (recently started to read through it).

OutbackGer said:

...I also want to mention that I own the commentary of John written by Calvin (which I have read) and also Aquinas (recently started to read through it)

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I hope they weren't terribly long, but I bet that they were. I have to respect anyone with such a high tolerance for pain.

Ha ha I don't mind, although Calvin writes far more succinctly than Aquinas!

It helps if one is somewhat a mystic when trying to understand the idea of a divine avatar in the sense of God being manifested as a human being. When the seeker of God becomes one with that sought, there is no longer in the mind of the seeker a sense of a duality. The mystic understands that God can only reveal God to God, for God is ONE, not a multiplicity of separate 'things'. No one who sees themselves as separate from God can ever enter into God.

I contemplated (prayed, meditated, etc..) God so consistently,
I finally became God.
Little by little, God drew nearer,
Slowly but slowly I passed away. - Sufi saying

The only thing that will prevent anyone from becoming an avatar of God is if they have lessor goals, and we know that you can't serve two masters without serving one second best!

This reminds me of the old Jewish saying "If I knew God I'd be God".

OutbackGer said:

This reminds me of the old Jewish saying "If I knew God I'd be God".

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Isaiah 41:8 Abraham, friend of God.

Ellen Brown said:

To me and many others, Jesus is NOT God, so can pray to God. Myself I find Trinitarians to be increasingly frightening and I increasingly avoid even talking to them. I just can't imagine where they get these ideas. I'm going to stop short of an actual attack on them. And no the Mormons did not influence my thinking on the matter. Clear back in 1974 when I first started with religion, the idea of the trinity was a huge put off almost immediately. Maybe just reading the KJV for yourself and not following the fantasies that the priests and preachers put out would be a start?

Click to expand...

The Trinity does not have any bases in the original Greek Gospel. And a translation is not the original if it is mistranslated.

God is One.

Jesus is the Son, the Christ, but only YHVH the Father is God and there is no deity besides Hes.

@ Topic Starter, Jesus Christ is the best in prayer. Prayer in technical terms means to follow God closely. And Christ is the one who follows God closely, besides the angels such as Gabriel, Michael etc.

^ Here is a question, Jesus became one with God, God spoke through Jesus, "The Father and I are one!", therefore is it possible for someone living now to be so devoted to God that they may became one with God, ie, an avatar of God?

ben d said:

^ Here is a question, Jesus became one with God, God spoke through Jesus, "The Father and I are one!", therefore is it possible for someone living now to be so devoted to God that they may became one with God, ie, an avatar of God?

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First of all, do you know Greek? Or are you going to use mistranslations to backup your doctrine?

They are one in agreement. Adam and eve were one as well. Does this mean they are one person?

Even Jesus Christ said that if we follow him we will be one with him. Does that mean we all are Jesus, one and the same person?

The trinity is just a fabrication. Stay away from it. Its idolatry. They are lying about the Holy Spirit.

God is One. Jesus Christ is the Son, but not the Father. Only YHVH the Father is God, and there is no deity except Hes.