My Perspective on Intelligent Design

Ostronomos · Sep 12, 2018

Our general view of nature is that it is too simplistic to have had an intelligent designer, but this is actually a bias. If the universe is the mind of God, then it may be said to have been intelligently self-directed. Although blind nature appears random, there could to some extent be a level of reality at which intelligent design is predominant. At the sub-microscopic level, Quantum mechanics becomes relevant. That means our genetics could have been influenced by Quantum mechanics. The idea of solipsism says that our human perspective is special. So perhaps our physical appearances are influenced by our consciousness and it was predetermined. This would imply intelligent design to some extent.

The Emperor of Mankind · Sep 12, 2018

Ostronomos said:
Our general view of nature is that it is too simplistic to have had an intelligent designer

Who has this view and has it ever been used as an argument against intelligent design?

Jayhawker Soule · Sep 12, 2018

Ostronomos said:
Our general view of nature is that it is too simplistic to have had an intelligent designer, ...

Pummel that straw man!

Woberts · Sep 12, 2018

The Emperor of Mankind said:
Who has this view and has it ever been used as an argument against intelligent design?

I was wondering that, too. The "argument" for intelligent design is usually the opposite.

Brickjectivity · Sep 12, 2018

Ostronomos said:
Our general view of nature is that it is too simplistic to have had an intelligent designer, but this is actually a bias. If the universe is the mind of God, then it may be said to have been intelligently self-directed. Although blind nature appears random, there could to some extent be a level of reality at which intelligent design is predominant. At the sub-microscopic level, Quantum mechanics becomes relevant. That means our genetics could have been influenced by Quantum mechanics. The idea of solipsism says that our human perspective is special. So perhaps our physical appearances are influenced by our consciousness and it was predetermined. This would imply intelligent design to some extent.

On some things I agree, but I do disagree with that statement about our general view of nature. There could be a level of reality at which intelligent design happens.

I keep in mind that intelligent design is a many staged process. All known intelligent design works by gradual improvement. An intelligent person makes a guess, makes a crude design and then improves on it. I do not know of anything today alive or otherwise that is not made with some trial and error. I am intelligent, yet I still cannot seem to make a good bean dip. I have not tried enough times. That is nevertheless intelligent design at work. Who designs a table that has never seen one before?

exchemist · Sep 12, 2018

Ostronomos said:
Our general view of nature is that it is too simplistic to have had an intelligent designer, but this is actually a bias. If the universe is the mind of God, then it may be said to have been intelligently self-directed. Although blind nature appears random, there could to some extent be a level of reality at which intelligent design is predominant. At the sub-microscopic level, Quantum mechanics becomes relevant. That means our genetics could have been influenced by Quantum mechanics. The idea of solipsism says that our human perspective is special. So perhaps our physical appearances are influenced by our consciousness and it was predetermined. This would imply intelligent design to some extent.

The whole concept of chemical bonding depends on quantum mechanics. Without it, there would be no atoms or molecules. So saying QM is "relevant" is something of an understatement.

But this has nothing to do with consciousness. That would be quantum woo, and we don't want to go there, do we?

JoshuaTree · Sep 12, 2018

You didn't quite come out and say that God is in absolute control of all that was, all that is, and all that will be... do you believe free will is an illusion of our "consciousness" as you suggest may be the case for our perceived physical appearances (individuality)? To me it seems our reality is God's imagination, God's memory of us is our soul, and the absence of faith is our illusion of free will (original sin). Perhaps we are all perfect parts in God's perfect plan but we can't appreciate the intelligence of the design until a time and place of God's choosing?

Regiomontanus · Sep 12, 2018

Ostronomos said:
Our general view of nature is that it is too simplistic to have had an intelligent designer, but this is actually a bias. If the universe is the mind of God, then it may be said to have been intelligently self-directed. Although blind nature appears random, there could to some extent be a level of reality at which intelligent design is predominant. At the sub-microscopic level, Quantum mechanics becomes relevant. That means our genetics could have been influenced by Quantum mechanics. The idea of solipsism says that our human perspective is special. So perhaps our physical appearances are influenced by our consciousness and it was predetermined. This would imply intelligent design to some extent.

Hello. Theistic evolution.

Skwim · Sep 12, 2018

Ostronomos said:
Our general view of nature is that it is too simplistic to have had an intelligent designer, but this is actually a bias.

Who is this "our" that thinks this?

If the universe is the mind of God, then it may be said to have been intelligently self-directed.

And if cows could fly . . . . but they don't, so there's no use in perusing the consequence.

Although blind nature appears random, there could to some extent be a level of reality at which intelligent design is predominant.

And if cows could fly . . . . but they don't, so there's no use in perusing the consequence.

At the sub-microscopic level, Quantum mechanics becomes relevant.

Relevant to what?

That means our genetics could have been influenced by Quantum mechanics.

Okay, but what does this have to do with intelligent design?

The idea of solipsism says that our human perspective is special.

Well, if you want to believe that because our knowledge is limited to knowing only ourselves, it's special, okay, but :shrug:

So perhaps our physical appearances are influenced by our consciousness and it was predetermined.

I don't follow. Why might this be?

This would imply intelligent design to some extent.

How? Where does intelligent design come into the picture?

.

Twilight Hue · Sep 12, 2018

Ostronomos said:
Our general view of nature is that it is too simplistic to have had an intelligent designer, but this is actually a bias. If the universe is the mind of God, then it may be said to have been intelligently self-directed. Although blind nature appears random, there could to some extent be a level of reality at which intelligent design is predominant. At the sub-microscopic level, Quantum mechanics becomes relevant. That means our genetics could have been influenced by Quantum mechanics. The idea of solipsism says that our human perspective is special. So perhaps our physical appearances are influenced by our consciousness and it was predetermined. This would imply intelligent design to some extent.

Like the most complex system is composed of simpler less complex parts?

Ellen Brown · Sep 12, 2018

Ostronomos said:
Our general view of nature is that it is too simplistic to have had an intelligent designer, but this is actually a bias. If the universe is the mind of God, then it may be said to have been intelligently self-directed. Although blind nature appears random, there could to some extent be a level of reality at which intelligent design is predominant. At the sub-microscopic level, Quantum mechanics becomes relevant. That means our genetics could have been influenced by Quantum mechanics. The idea of solipsism says that our human perspective is special. So perhaps our physical appearances are influenced by our consciousness and it was predetermined. This would imply intelligent design to some extent.

IF there was a Fall, it was to set Science and Belief against each other.

Nakosis · Sep 12, 2018

Ostronomos said:
Our general view of nature is that it is too simplistic to have had an intelligent designer, but this is actually a bias. If the universe is the mind of God, then it may be said to have been intelligently self-directed. Although blind nature appears random, there could to some extent be a level of reality at which intelligent design is predominant. At the sub-microscopic level, Quantum mechanics becomes relevant. That means our genetics could have been influenced by Quantum mechanics. The idea of solipsism says that our human perspective is special. So perhaps our physical appearances are influenced by our consciousness and it was predetermined. This would imply intelligent design to some extent.

Simplistic - no. Many parts on the universe are understood by science but that doesn't necessarily mean simplistic.

If the universe were God's mind, then the universe isn't really physical. I suppose it could be that. The mind is just information that we perceive as material object. Like if you were to imagine a beautiful woman. She wouldn't have "physical" reality. It'd just be information presented to your conscious awareness as a pseudo physical object.

exchemist · Sep 12, 2018

Ellen Brown said:
IF there was a Fall, it was to set Science and Belief against each other.

One can date that idea (the Conflict Thesis) to the late c.19th.

William Draper and Andrew Dixon White were largely responsible for it. Modern historians think it is mostly rubbish, though some scientists keep the idea alive, due I imagine to a combination of ignorance and their personal prejudices. More here: Conflict thesis - Wikipedia

I agree with you it is sad - and quite unnecessary.

Ellen Brown · Sep 12, 2018

exchemist said:
One can date that idea (the Conflict Thesis) to the late c.19th.

William Draper and Andrew Dixon White were largely responsible for it. Modern historians think it is mostly rubbish, though some scientists keep the idea alive, due I imagine to a combination of ignorance and their personal prejudices. More here: Conflict thesis - Wikipedia

I agree with you it is sad - and quite unnecessary.

The Fall smacks of BDSM ideas. Pun intended.

It is relatively common for humans to seek punishment for imagined transgressions and along the way at times sex gets mixed in with it. I think that the Fall is one of satan's ideas.

BECAUSE, there was the supposed Fall, then later on we have Abraham as a friend of God. I don't think that he was estranged from God at all. Then there is the "structure" of religions. I talk to God through Jesus the Christ every single day, and often more than once. Lots of religions insist that we need a Priest, Preacher, Bishop, imaginary Prophet, or Imam to talk to Jesus for us. That is full on BUNK.

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Twilight Hue · Sep 12, 2018

Nakosis said:
Simplistic - no. Many parts on the universe are understood by science but that doesn't necessarily mean simplistic.

If the universe were God's mind, then the universe isn't really physical. I suppose it could be that. The mind is just information that we perceive as material object. Like if you were to imagine a beautiful woman. She wouldn't have "physical" reality. It'd just be information presented to your conscious awareness as a pseudo physical object.

That's pretty interesting.

"The mind is just information that we perceive as a material object".

It Aint Necessarily So · Sep 12, 2018

Ostronomos said:
Our general view of nature is that it is too simplistic to have had an intelligent designer, but this is actually a bias. If the universe is the mind of God, then it may be said to have been intelligently self-directed. Although blind nature appears random, there could to some extent be a level of reality at which intelligent design is predominant. At the sub-microscopic level, Quantum mechanics becomes relevant. That means our genetics could have been influenced by Quantum mechanics. The idea of solipsism says that our human perspective is special. So perhaps our physical appearances are influenced by our consciousness and it was predetermined. This would imply intelligent design to some extent.

But we have no need of that hypothesis.

Our scientific theories work fine without an intelligent designer inserted into them, an unnecessary complication that would serve no explanatory function. Science won't entertain such a thought until it encounters some phenomenon that requires an intelligent designer to account for it.

Ellen Brown · Sep 12, 2018

It Aint Necessarily So said:
But we have no need of that hypothesis.

Our scientific theories work fine without an intelligent designer inserted into them, an unnecessary complication that would serve no explanatory function. Science won't entertain such a thought until it encounters some phenomenon that requires an intelligent designer to account for it.

No one has the right to tell us what to think. I believe that Evolution and Religion work together just fine. Those who try to create a conflict are Neanderthals

exchemist · Sep 12, 2018

It Aint Necessarily So said:
But we have no need of that hypothesis.

Our scientific theories work fine without an intelligent designer inserted into them, an unnecessary complication that would serve no explanatory function. Science won't entertain such a thought until it encounters some phenomenon that requires an intelligent designer to account for it.

And that, I venture to suggest, can never happen for the simple reason that the whole notion of identifying "design", objectively, in nature presents insuperable problems.

Skwim · Sep 12, 2018

Ellen Brown said:
No one has the right to tell us what to think.

Sure they do, at least in the USA where we have free speech.

I believe that Evolution and Religion work together just fine.

I know there are a few religions that do, but for a large part one of them is not Christianity. But believe what you wish.

Those who try to create a conflict are Neanderthals

And what if the conflict arises naturally because of differing claims and evidence?

.

exchemist · Sep 12, 2018

Ellen Brown said:
No one has the right to tell us what to think. I believe that Evolution and Religion work together just fine. Those who try to create a conflict are Neanderthals

Ellen, relax - all this is saying (I think) is that science has no need of a God hypothesis. Which is true.

But there is more to the whole world of human experience than studying nature, is there not? Plenty of scientists are religious believers. They just don't try to drag their religious beliefs into their scientific work. That would not be appropriate.

My Perspective on Intelligent Design

Well-Known Member

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic

-- untitled --

The Perfumed Seneschal

wind and rain touch not this brain

Veteran Member

Flowers are red?

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.

Veteran Member

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

Well-Known Member

Non-Binary Physicalist

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member