BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Being selfish doesn't save and being non-selfish doesn't save. Agape is unselfish, and the Bible says agape crucified the Christ unto the world.
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Works vs Doctrine
- Thread starter iam1me
- Start date
Being selfish doesn't save and being non-selfish doesn't save. Agape is unselfish, and the Bible says agape crucified the Christ unto the world.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Respectfully, the separation between salvation and deeds is made multiple times in the Bible, for example, " . . . saved by grace, apart from works, so that persons cannot boast."
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
You're missing the point, so please go back and put my statement in its proper context.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Please reread.
iam1me
Active Member
First off, mental assent/repentance ARE works - something that you do, a work which you are asserting is required for salvation. Thus you are fundamentally contradicting yourself.
Secondly, your position -as has been pointed out - suffers from favoritism. What of all those people who never had an opportunity to even learn of Christ? What of all those who were born into non-Christian households, but taught another faith - even, say, Judaism? If all we are judged on is our mental assent of correct doctrine - then obviously someone who is born into the "right" household has a distinct advantage over these other people. That is favoritism - but there is no favoritism with God.
Third, your position is simply incompatible with the numerous scriptures that plainly declare that you will be judged by your works. It is not enough to receive the Word of God - fruit is produced only when we - the soil - are good and persevere in doing good works.
Luke 8:1-15
After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, 2 and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; 3 Joanna the wife of Chuza, the manager of Herod’s household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.
4 While a large crowd was gathering and people were coming to Jesus from town after town, he told this parable: 5 “A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds ate it up. 6 Some fell on rocky ground, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown.”
When he said this, he called out, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”
9 His disciples asked him what this parable meant. 10 He said, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that,
“‘though seeing, they may not see;
though hearing, they may not understand.’a]">[a]
11 “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.
After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, 2 and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; 3 Joanna the wife of Chuza, the manager of Herod’s household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.
4 While a large crowd was gathering and people were coming to Jesus from town after town, he told this parable: 5 “A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds ate it up. 6 Some fell on rocky ground, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown.”
When he said this, he called out, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”
9 His disciples asked him what this parable meant. 10 He said, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that,
“‘though seeing, they may not see;
though hearing, they may not understand.’a]">[a]
11 “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
This is works:
Romans 2:6-10
2 Corinthians 5:10
John 14:15
what would happen if you didn't keep his commandments? Would you get a free ride to heaven?)
Colossians 3:17
if you arent doing for Christ and others by what reason should you be saved? What in you does god see to where your salvation is warranted compared to those of us who don't believe?
Psalm 37:3-4
What does it mean to delight yourself to the Lord if god gave you salvation (reward) without your hand in the matter?
Ephesians 2:8 and James 2:18
you can't pick and choose which scriptures you want to use. If the bible is one unit, do these verses contradict each other?
Matthew 25:31-46
If works is irrelevant what seperates the sheep from the goat if we both called out Lord Lord?
Acts 10:38
works are not seperate from god, his reward, faith, and salvation
Romans 3:28
We are talking works of god through the believer not of self through the law
John 3:19-21
Judgement in this context is what seperates the believer and nonbeliever even though they say Lord. Lord. The judgement is based on works not faith. Faith without works is dead.
Romans 12:1 present your Bodies as a willing sacrifice not your mind nor your brain. On that note Luke 9:23
Galatians 2:16
Believers works are not justified by the law but by ones faith in christ. If you have no works, your faith is not justified by christ but by your self.
Jeremiah 17:10. God judges man on thr result of his deeds. If his deeds are justified in christ, god looks at him favorable. If not, like other sinners, the judgement seperates them from god aka no salvation.
Psalm 37:27-29
Works is all through the bible. It is the bible.
Proverbs 14:23
1 Timothy 5:8 the result of not doing works
Proverbs 16:3 god makes plans after you commit to serve him. He doesnt make plans first but plans after you say and act: I do. Both word and deed.
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Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Works are those justified by christ not the law nor self. If you have no works your faith isn't justified. Since your faith isn't justified, you are not saved. You said lord. Lord. But god did not hear without you works for him so that that works for him is justified in christ not by law.
Your faith isn't justified without works. You need them both to look good in gods eyes. You need both to get reward. You need both to be saved.
Your faith isn't justified without works. You need them both to look good in gods eyes. You need both to get reward. You need both to be saved.
iam1me
Active Member
You can definitely believe without works, but this means your belief is worthless and cannot save you (James 2).
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
There's more, of course, backslidden believers and deathbed converts are s
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
A work is something one does under law or precept. Changing my mind from "I can save myself" to "Christ only can save" is not a good deed, a work of the Mosaic Law, a task, or a witness to other people, etc. Just like thinking 2+2=5 then correcting to 2+2=4 isn't a religious work.
We are not judged on mental assert of doctrine. We are judged sinners or we are judged on the merits of Christ's cross. After repenting to think "Christ only saves", I then trust Jesus, by faith, and receive of His grace. God will no longer judge me for salvation based on my works, but on the mighty work of Christ. He will judge me for reward or loss of reward based on works, and a part of genuine salvation is being prompted to work.
My position is not incompatible with being judged by works, for rewards or loss of rewards. The Bible is specific about this.
Your good news seems to be "Don't struggle to do works to be saved, trust Jesus, then struggle to do Christian works to be saved, but be afraid, you can lose salvation." That isn't good news. The good news per the Bible is "Don't struggle to do works to be saved, trust Jesus."
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I think you missed a quote
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
The Work the bible speaks of is righteous deeds justified by christ.
The work christ spoke against is that which isnt for god and is person-oriented not god oriented.
The former is righteous works. The latter unrighteous.
So, you have to be more specific because there are two types of work from and for god (Romans 3:28; Mathew 25;32) justified by christ or for and from self justified by law.
Galatians 2:16 know that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not ...
Edit.. Since works are justified by faith in christ (by christ himself as in the other verses I listed), it cannot be separated from christ because they are justified by him.
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My view on the scriptures you present is that they are fiction. Basing knowledge on revealed religion is pointless.
iam1me
Active Member
If you don't accept the scriptures, it's probably not very productive to join a scriptural debate
I'd suggest starting some threads on your argument(s) against revealed religion.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Yes, you've shared with me your passion for the idea that there are righteous and unrighteous works, and I agree!
However, the Bible doesn't say, "Salvation comes from righteous, not unrighteous works," rather, it says, "The true gospel is salvation has nothing to do with works" and "People with zero works who trust Jesus to save, are saved".
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
There are hundreds of scriptures that prove otherwise. Christianity is not a lazy faith. Salvation cannot exist without works justified by christ and faith as a foundation of that righteous works.
There is no works without god
There is no god without fiath
faith without works is dead; you need both because in them both your salvation is justifed by christ through faith which is the foundation of righteous works through god.
It has nothing to do with man nor the law.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
There is no "gift" in works-based salvation otherwise it would not be a "gift". You do not work for a gift.
Secondly, the work of salvation was performed by Jesus, not by us.
Let’s be clear about our terms here, because you keep using “saved”.
"Saved" is save in the past tense. Under works based salvation you are saving but are never saved. Saved is rescued. Saved is protected. Saved is free from destruction. Saved is an accomplished work. Saved is the term the bible uses.
Under a works based scenario you are saving but at no point have you been actually saved. It is not an accomplished but a current, ongoing task in the hope of a future result. You save for later. You save for college. You save because there is more work to do. There is no assurance of salvation because your salvation is not an accomplished task, and since the work was not accomplished by Jesus, you never receive the promised gift because there will always be something else you need or could do to earn it.
Those who are saved have the assurance of salvation. Those who save toward this end do not.Under your works bases soteriology no one is saved. They simply save until they die and hope its enough.
Not only did we not earn it, we cannot earn it on our own.
Yes, that would be our faith in Christ. If you have faith in something else, like works, your results will certainly vary.
We will be judged by Christ, not by our deeds. Those who place their faith in Christ escape judgement altogether:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. (John 5:24)
Scripture is crystal clear on this.
Note verse 6. It states God” will repay each person according to what they have done”. This is talking about reward, not salvation.
What will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? (Matthew 16:26)
The answer to both questions is "nothing".
You can give nothing in exchange for your soul. “Nothing” includes “works” which is why we so desperately needed the free gift.
Let’s not lose the focus of our attention…which is whether we are saved by faith or works. As you stated above, this is a summation of the Law and not of salvation. If we are saved by obeying the Law then we’re all in trouble.
Note the intended audience for James‘. He is speaking to believers. They already claim to have a saving faith. He’s now telling them how to recognize if that faith is real. If they have no works…no fruit...their faith is dead.At no point does James claim we are saved by works. He’s simply stating that we can recognize a saving faith…in ourselves or in others…by the fruit we produce.
There are many who claim to believe and have faith in Christ. But faith is invisible so we can’t see who has it and who doesn’t. Works allows faith to become visible. It is the evidence of our faith, but it is never the cause of our salvation.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
We know enough about the thief.
We know Jesus didn’t tell him “Too late…you should have done a few more works”.
Neither did Jesus say “Don’t worry, be happy. Your prior works were enough to save you”.
I am being whimsical but I would expect this or something similar if our salvation were works-based.
Lastly, I think we can be fairly certain that he didn’t get off his cross, perform a work, and then get back on his cross to die.
As such, any notion our salvation is works-based was refuted by Jesus’ response to the thief.
We are saved by works except when we are not??
Where in scripture do we find this?
Worse, you now claim a person who sins their whole life and repents at the very last moment fares better than someone born a Christian who sins during their life.
I am unaware of any church with such a works based, "last-gasp" soteriology. It is certainly inconsistent as it applies to the thief.
Aaah! So it’s better to not devote our lives to Christ and wait until we’re all on our death beds because accepting Christ too early could be fatal?
That would certainly be “Exhibit A” for works based salvation!
This quote helps my assertion, not yours.
Any house of works will fall that is not based on the firm foundation of Christ. Notice the wise man is building a house on the rock. BOTH the wise man and the house survive. The foolish man built a house on sand, and the house fell with a great crash.
Nowhere in this verse does it state the man loses his life because he didn’t have good works. The house gets washed away but the man doesn’t drown. You are confusing salvation with reward.
Audience @iam1me!
Jesus is talking to believers here as following him may involve martyrdom. Those seeking to preserve their life may lose it, and those willing to give their life for him will save it.
As stated previously, fruit shows our faith is alive. Fruit is not required for us to be saved. The thief had no fruit.
If works were required, the thief would have had to produce some sort of fruit in order to be saved. Perhaps showing where he stored his cache so that it could be returned. Perhaps giving his ill begotten gains to the poor, offering to give a course on protecting your assets from folks like him, or even telling local authorities about accomplices, or where he fenced his wares.
None of that happened. He expressed faith in Christ. Christ didn’t tell him it was too late, nor did he require any of the “works” mentioned above.
All our works, good and bad, will face the fire. Those works compelled by the Spirit survive. Works of the carnal man do not.
This has nothing to do with salvation but with reward. If this were about salvation, then the tax collector purchases his “free gift” by collecting no more than he has to and the soldier purchases his by being content with his wages.
You cannot purchase your salvation on your own which is why Jesus came.
It's late and I don't know how much more I'll be able to reply, so the rest of my response may have to wait until later. I'll give it a shot though.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
Working or not working on the Trump campaign does nothing for your salvation. It is faith in Christ. We cannot purchase or barter for it with works.
We are all building, either on something solid or on sand.
First you tell us works are required for salvation, now you argue against yourself and claim they are not? Do you belong to a church that actually backs this soteriology or is this simply something you came up with on your own?
Our evil works are not hidden. They will get thrown into the fire with our good works. If works are required for salvation, why is the thief getting a waiver?
Everyone has works to present. All works, good or bad, will be thrown into the fire. You are rewarded for any work that survives. You are not killed if they don’t. However you will come under judgement if you have no faith in Christ.
No, I’m correct. Let's follow your analysis and see where you’ve gone wrong.
Your argument falls apart because your “gift” is not a “free” and it certainly isn’t a “gift” at all. Instead you substitute the free gift with something you must earn. For you, the “free” gift is only free if there is a constant and continuous purchase.
Your free gift has a slot and a sign that says “Insert work here or I’ll go away”. If we constantly have to work the gift was never free!
Your works are counted as your due…that is, if your works survive the fire it will be counted as your reward.
You are correct. It is not enough to receive the word of God to be fruitful, but we must receive the word of God to be saved. This is what happened with the thief. His faith was accounted to him as righteousness, not fruit, and the righteous will not perish from the earth.
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in[a] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness (Romans 4)
In the same way, the thief believed Jesus and it was counted to him as righteousness.
It is clear, it is simple, and it is scriptural.
I'll post more responses to your posts later.