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Some reasons not to be literalist about the NT

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
1. The fulfillments in Matthew. Just look them up to see they are not literal fulfillments but imitations.
2. John 1:1 through John 3:19 which describes Jesus as the light of a new creation with the world previous to Jesus as uncreated, yet clearly people were already around prior to Jesus.
3. Conflicting language about death and resurrection. Consider Mark 12:26 in which Jesus considers the dead to be alive. He says this while they literally are buried and inert. In Luke 8:52 Jesus says a dead girl is only asleep. Luke 15:24 the prodigal son was 'Dead' yet not literally. There is much more material.
4. The bad spiritual fruit associated with ministries that insist upon literal and confined meanings in the gospels. They have a terrible track record. When churches split it is nearly always over an interpretation of what is literal or not. When cults spring up their primary sargument is the protection of some literal form, yet they produce no especially good fruit. This is bad fruit, and it is also plain that good fruit comes from churches that do not insist on literalizing everything.
5. The NT is plainly a collection: not one book like literalist teachers frequently insist. They jump through hoops to claim that it is, but its not.
6. Paul, James, Peter and Jesus all oppose an argument based, perfectionist approach. Always it is about living right, communing with people first God second, forgiving, working, assembling.
7. In particular Jesus says the holy spirit will guide followers, but this is never good enough for literalist teachers who make it a point in books they sell and at their paid appearances to lay down strict verbal standards. They frequently refer to corrupt teachers and love to sneak put-downs into sermons, couched in caring sounding purrs.
 

Earthling

David Henson
2. John 1:1 through John 3:19 which describes Jesus as the light of a new creation with the world previous to Jesus as uncreated, yet clearly people were already around prior to Jesus.

Jesus existed in heaven in spirit form (i.e., commonly referred to as angel) before the Earth or heavens were created. He was the first born of creation, all things created through him. (Genesis 1:26 / John 3:13; 6:38,62; 8:23,42,58 / Colosians 1:16)

3. Conflicting language about death and resurrection. Consider Mark 12:26 in which Jesus considers the dead to be alive. He says this while they literally are buried and inert. In Luke 8:52 Jesus says a dead girl is only asleep. Luke 15:24 the prodigal son was 'Dead' yet not literally. There is much more material.

Let the dead bury the dead means that the spiritually dead could bury the physically dead. Someone physically dead, and spiritually alive is someone worthy for resurrection.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Jesus existed in heaven in spirit form (i.e., commonly referred to as angel) before the Earth or heavens were created. He was the first born of creation, all things created through him. (Genesis 1:26 / John 3:13; 6:38,62; 8:23,42,58 / Colosians 1:16)
I am familiar with that school but do not agree and do not like its fruit. Give me the simpler explanation first of all informed by torah and not a lot of spiritist claims. I will drink the mother's milk of moral teaching and practice, and when I know enough to choose what is right having matured through hard work I will be ready to discuss those things which are more difficult. Then when I speak in parables I won't merely be making noise. Rather than literalism, miracles and strife give me peace, strength and commitment.

Let the dead bury the dead means that the spiritually dead could bury the physically dead. Someone physically dead, and spiritually alive is someone worthy for resurrection.
Seems to me a denial that sin is death. Wouldn't we all like for everything to be about us? It is not for to be in Christ means denying one's self. We are raised with Christ not as individuals. "Let the dead bury their own dead" makes sense without any talk about ghosts. Those who are in Christ are a new creation.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
2. John 1:1 through John 3:19 which describes Jesus as the light of a new creation with the world previous to Jesus as , yet clearly people were already around prior to Jesus.
John 1:1 is about the Light of Genesis 1:3. In fact John 1 can only be understood properly in light of Genesis 1:3. This is the first thing recorded that God ever said in Genesis. "Let there be Light." So it's the "Word" that was with God and was God. This is the beginning of creation because God made everything in the Light. That is He made everything in 6 periods of Light called days. On the 7th day He rests.

So Genesis 1:1 is what God did. "In the beginning God creates the heavens and the earth". The following story is how He did it finishing everything by the 7th day.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
John 1:1 is about the Light of Genesis 1:3. In fact John 1 can only be understood properly in light of Genesis 1:3. This is the first thing recorded that God ever said in Genesis. "Let there be Light." So it's the "Word" that was with God and was God. This is the beginning of creation because God made everything in the Light. That is He made everything in 6 periods of Light called days.
Genesis comes as part of a set, and those to whom it is written must consider themselves to be escaped slaves from Egypt whether they be born in a manger in Bethlehem or running for Congress in the USA. There is no preface saying that you must consider it to be your history unless you are a slave from Egypt. By the way I am from the USA not ancient Egypt and not a slave. John is written not in ignorance and says right in chapter 1 That the life comes from the logos and that life is the light of men. It also says the logos is tabernacled among us. The operative action is light shining out of and through people, and this light is the light of creation. Should that light be hidden under a basket? No! So we the gentiles are no longer considered darkness. Were we present when planet Earth cooled? No, but we are a significant creation.

So Genesis 1:1 is what God did. "In the beginning God creates the heavens and the earth". The following story is how He did it finishing everything by the 7th day.
The Torah is complete in other words. Anyone can look at the skies and see they are not at rest, and the planet neither. Literalism is ridiculous.
 

Miracle

Christian
1. The fulfillments in Matthew. Just look them up to see they are not literal fulfillments but imitations.
I am not sure what you are talking about here. Could you give at least one example, please?

2. John 1:1 through John 3:19 which describes Jesus as the light of a new creation with the world previous to Jesus as uncreated, yet clearly people were already around prior to Jesus.
John 1-3 does not describe Jesus as the light of a new creation before our own rather it creates this atmosphere where time is indistinguishable. It is both in the past, present, and future. John 1:1-4 is past, verse 5 is present and then introduces us as to why John the Baptist was sent so we a witness of the light that no one knew. If you recall nebuchadnezzar's cry when he realized there were 4 people instead of the three that he threw into the fiery furnace.

"He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." (Daniel 3:25) The evidence of Jesus Christ is scattered throughout the Bible, however, the Israelites never knew him, how much more the rest of the world. Jesus Christ was only revealed to the prophets and those who walked with God. But was largely unseen by the children of Israel.

3. Conflicting language about death and resurrection. Consider Mark 12:26 in which Jesus considers the dead to be alive. He says this while they literally are buried and inert. In Luke 8:52 Jesus says a dead girl is only asleep. Luke 15:24 the prodigal son was 'Dead' yet not literally. There is much more material.

The Bible is largely focused on the spiritual. So when we read the Bible we should be aware that it be referring to the spiritual or the physical. That makes things easier to understand. In the cause of Mark 12:26[-27], The Sadducees came before Jesus asking about the resurrection (a spiritual concept that they did not understand). Jesus clarified that death isn't the end of life. Death is the beginning of a new life, a life in which you spend eternity either in heaven (with God) or hell (with the devil). Don't you remember that Jesus rose up for the grave after he died? And then the Bible stated that the dead rose also with him (Matthew 27:52)? And what about what Jesus Christ told the thief on the cross who defended him?

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." So where could this man have gone except into heaven because Jesus ascended into heaven (Acts 1:11)?

Luke 8:52 What is sleep? But a temporary death, where the body rests. So when Jesus raised her from death she became alive. She was no longer death. Jesus' statement was also to lighten the hearts of those around him. That God was with them and they need not fear. That life had arrived at their doorstep.

Luke 15:24 connects to Luke 9:60/Matthew 8:22 and it even extends to Genesis 2:17. The death that Christ refers to is a spiritual death. Being dead is being cut off from awareness and your body is no longer able to carry out the functions that keep you alive. When Christ said death, he was referring to a spiritual death in which one is no longer able to know God. Because our spirit is what reminds us of God, it's what desires truth. So when we die spiritually then we don't desire truth nor the things of God. However, it doesn't mean there are things to wake up our spirit or to give it the power to fight our fleshly desires. ;) It is still something I am learning about as I read the Bible. That is just a small summary but there's a lot more. If you are interested I can pm you about it.

4. The bad spiritual fruit associated with ministries that insist upon literal and confined meanings in the gospels. They have a terrible track record. When churches split it is nearly always over an interpretation of what is literal or not. When cults spring up their primary sargument is the protection of some literal form, yet they produce no especially good fruit. This is bad fruit, and it is also plain that good fruit comes from churches that do not insist on literalizing everything.
From what I am reading good fruit and bad fruit seem to depend on your subjective view rather than on the Bible since the Bible is the one that dictates what is good and bad. If a church splits, it has to do with the spiritual life of either party. It reminds me of a verse I read today.

"Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself" (John 7:16-17).

I want to highlight something, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine..." this portion of the verse says it all. Where confusion and separation enters is in a people who do not do the will of God. When you fail to live according to the will of God then you will not know/understand God's doctrine.

Your next question will probably be, how does one know what the will of God is? The answer lies first and foremost with salvation. Once someone has repented of their sins and ceased from sin, it is then that they are able to be taught of God. It is then that the teachings from the scriptures make sense. It's like a blindfold has been taken off your eye. SO, these people who break away either live in sin and are trying to hide or they have overcome sin and want to expose the truth.

5. The NT is plainly a collection: not one book like literalist teachers frequently insist. They jump through hoops to claim that it is, but its not.
I am not sure of what you mean by this statement, could you elaborate, please? The Bible is one book with a collection of authors all inspired by the Holy Spirit. I would even go as far as to say that the Bible was written by the holy spirit.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:20-21).

Which is why some verses may be written as though things have happened, are happening and are yet to happen.

6. Paul, James, Peter and Jesus all oppose an argument based, perfectionist approach. Always it is about living right, communing with people first God second, forgiving, working, assembling.
Paul, James, Peter, and Jesus support the perfectionist approach. How do they oppose it? Christianity isn't necessarily about living right, although that is one of many topics. It is about escaping the problem of sin --as seen in the old testament and damnation-- to be with God (without suffering, corruption, and sin) for eternity (that is the purpose of our existence, to be with God where he interacts with us and we with him). If you like, I can explain the perfectionist view since I believe that we can be perfect through the grace of God and not by our power.

7. In particular Jesus says the holy spirit will guide followers, but this is never good enough for literalist teachers who make it a point in books they sell and at their paid appearances to lay down strict verbal standards. They frequently refer to corrupt teachers and love to sneak put-downs into sermons, couched in caring sounding purrs.
Jesus Christ was correct when he said that the Holy Spirit will teach us and remind us of all things. (John14:26). I have not met any of your so-called literalist teachers. I believe most teachers today don't appear to have been touched by God and if there was a time they were, I think they've lost it.

Warning about corrupt teachers isn't a new thing. In fact, if they don't warn you then they haven't done their job.

I am curious to know what you mean by verbal standards. Could you explain, please?
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
I am not sure what you are talking about here. Could you give at least one example, please?
Matthew contains verses which claim to be fulfillments, and Bible Literalists tend to insist they fulfill predictions as if the Jewish prophets were somehow giving miraculous proofs of Jesus messianic position. This flaw in literalist apologetic arises frequently along with claims that the Bible is perfect and claims that it is a complete, whole work of God. It arises from the constraints Bible literalists place upon themselves and their need to prove primacy for scripture. An example is Matthew 2:17, but a quick lookup in a concordance shows there are at least eight places where Matthew says an event in Jesus life is a fulfillment. Find any prediction of any of the fulfillments mentioned by Matthew, but you cannot. These fulfillments are not fulfillments of predictions thus embarrassing the already terrible record of Bible literalists.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
John 1-3 does not describe Jesus as the light of a new creation before our own rather it creates this atmosphere where time is indistinguishable. It is both in the past, present, and future. John 1:1-4 is past, verse 5 is present and then introduces us as to why John the Baptist was sent so we a witness of the light that no one knew.
I think the constraint of Bible literalism in your post requires you to imagine that time is indistinguishable, for you must later assert Jesus to exist previous to Adam, such is your difficulty. You find yourself having to prop up a literalist reading of Jesus in very difficult passages like John 8:58 where Jesus says "Before Abraham was I am," but the Bible does not require this. The Bible is Ok with all of our speech devices. John has no such trouble with placing Jesus creation after Moses creation, only you do in order to try to come up with consistence while clinging to loyalty. The difficulty is yours for any such consistency floats only in your insistence. When Jesus says "Before Abraham was I am" he knows very well it makes no literal sense. He always says things that befuddle his disciples. It is a point of his ministry. It is part of his practice, not allowing them to cling to his person as the source of teaching. The Bible literalists have yet I think to embrace this teaching. They expect Jesus to speak certain ways. I say it is an unfair demand. Is Jesus bound by literalism? No, but a literalist wishes to obtain a literalist Jesus.
 

Tammie

Member
RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha said:
Jesus existed in heaven in spirit form (i.e., commonly referred to as angel) before the Earth or heavens were created. He was the first born of creation, all things created through him. (Genesis 1:26 / John 3:13; 6:38,62; 8:23,42,58 / Colosians 1:16)

and Let the dead bury the dead means that the spiritually dead could bury the physically dead. Someone physically dead, and spiritually alive is someone worthy for resurrection.

So far, I have really liked some of your comments. They are deep and provide much thought.
 

Tammie

Member
Brickjectivity said:
Seems to me a denial that sin is death. Wouldn't we all like for everything to be about us? It is not for to be in Christ means denying one's self. We are raised with Christ not as individuals. "Let the dead bury their own dead" makes sense without any talk about ghosts. Those who are in Christ are a new creation.

I agree that those in Christ are a new creation...but is it possible that
RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha is referring to
the difference between the two resurrections rather than the Spiritually dead? After all, it is appointed unto man to die once than comes the judgement.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
The Bible is largely focused on the spiritual. So when we read the Bible we should be aware that it be referring to the spiritual or the physical. That makes things easier to understand. In the cause of Mark 12:26[-27], The Sadducees came before Jesus asking about the resurrection (a spiritual concept that they did not understand). Jesus clarified that death isn't the end of life. Death is the beginning of a new life, a life in which you spend eternity either in heaven (with God) or hell (with the devil).
What Jesus says to the Saducee is that God is not the God of the dead but of the living. This catches them in their literalism. He specifically does not call death the beginning of a new life. You are adding that, and I take issue. Jesus own parable (Lazarus & the Rich Man) makes the point that a resurrection cannot convince anyone to repent, yet you have just told me the opposite that repentance will give me an extra life. Surely you see the irony? I consider repentance to be a resurrection from a false life that is dead in sins and for good reason. Also Devil is a Jewish concept akin to the prosecutor in a courtroom, only it is someone who makes a false charge and presses it against someone. Sin first appears in the story of Cain. Sin crouches at Cain's door ready to conquer him. This should remind you of the term Satan used in Christianity. It does not? You do not see that the Devil and Satan are part of you and I? What does James say but that each person is dragged away by his own sin and enticed and dies as a result. Literalism tends to obfuscate it.

Don't you remember that Jesus rose up for the grave after he died? And then the Bible stated that the dead rose also with him (Matthew 27:52)? And what about what Jesus Christ told the thief on the cross who defended him?
Do you remember Jesus always speaks of life and death in terms of how you live? Paul says he is crucified with Christ so he no longer lives but Christ, yet is it not physically Paul writing the thing?

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." So where could this man have gone except into heaven because Jesus ascended into heaven (Acts 1:11)?
Simple. He repents and is made righteous. You wish to believe the man gets another life, but the message is for us to encourage us not to disregard a moment nor the value of repentance. The thief is in paradise not will be. The Greek (so I am told) can translate to "Today I tell you you are with me in paradise." Nevertheless even if it doesn't translate our lives should be about love not about heaven and escaping from our duties.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Brickjectivity said:
Seems to me a denial that sin is death. Wouldn't we all like for everything to be about us? It is not for to be in Christ means denying one's self. We are raised with Christ not as individuals. "Let the dead bury their own dead" makes sense without any talk about ghosts. Those who are in Christ are a new creation.

I agree that those in Christ are a new creation...but is it possible that
RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha is referring to
the difference between the two resurrections rather than the Spiritually dead? After all, it is appointed unto man to die once than comes the judgement.
I did not see your reply right away, and I am not fast on this device so I am a little late responding.

All: thank you for your replies. I cannot keep up without my laptop, and internet coverage here is spotty. Also forgive my brevity and seeming impatience as they are not intentional. I will try to reply more intelligently.

Tammie, I do respect his intelligence though not the method of eisegesis. The bottom line, that which matters is transformation of this world. Resurrection first appears in the prophets where it refers either directly or in figure to the renewal of Israel: Israel the just, the Prince of Peace, the Suffering Servant, The Son. Christ is an expression of a renewal and resurrection of Israel, at least its spirit , despite figurative language. By the way even a literalist ought to notice in Isaiah and Jeremiah that Israel is called My Son and The Suffering Servant, but this is kept secret and overlooked by literalist teachers such as Martin Luther. I am not at all suggesting we are Jews, but I am pointing out what resurrection means in the Prophets and who the suffering servant and Son are. These concepts are interpreted by John more explicitly who calls the Son 'Logos'. Everytime a gospel calls Jesus 'Son' or 'Suffering Servant', even a literalist ought to see those are the names of Israel first. Recall "The gifts and the calling of God are without repentance." Hence the resurrction we hope for and are seeing is a resurrection of the Son, a renewal. Jesus is indeed the messiah if you can just accept that what matters to God is not a second life for individuals but denial of self and on earth, peace, goodwill.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
1. The fulfillments in Matthew. Just look them up to see they are not literal fulfillments but imitations.
2. John 1:1 through John 3:19 which describes Jesus as the light of a new creation with the world previous to Jesus as uncreated, yet clearly people were already around prior to Jesus.
3. Conflicting language about death and resurrection. Consider Mark 12:26 in which Jesus considers the dead to be alive. He says this while they literally are buried and inert. In Luke 8:52 Jesus says a dead girl is only asleep. Luke 15:24 the prodigal son was 'Dead' yet not literally. There is much more material.
4. The bad spiritual fruit associated with ministries that insist upon literal and confined meanings in the gospels. They have a terrible track record. When churches split it is nearly always over an interpretation of what is literal or not. When cults spring up their primary sargument is the protection of some literal form, yet they produce no especially good fruit. This is bad fruit, and it is also plain that good fruit comes from churches that do not insist on literalizing everything.
5. The NT is plainly a collection: not one book like literalist teachers frequently insist. They jump through hoops to claim that it is, but its not.
6. Paul, James, Peter and Jesus all oppose an argument based, perfectionist approach. Always it is about living right, communing with people first God second, forgiving, working, assembling.
7. In particular Jesus says the holy spirit will guide followers, but this is never good enough for literalist teachers who make it a point in books they sell and at their paid appearances to lay down strict verbal standards. They frequently refer to corrupt teachers and love to sneak put-downs into sermons, couched in caring sounding purrs.


In Mark 12:26--" 26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"

In the Bible ( Scriptures ) many things are two folded, here in Mark 12:26, the dead are not dead in a grave.
They are Spiritually dead to God.
Like Atheists, They are Spiritually dead to God, they don't believe in God, So they would be considered Spiritually dead to God.

Mark 12:27--"He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err"

There you have it, God is not the God of the dead, This being the Spiritual dead.

But the God of the living, The living being those who believe in God. That are Spiritually alive to God.

Here in Luke 8:52--"And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth"

As humans we view people as dead, But in the eyes of Jesus sees them as asleep not dead.
Why is that ?
We humans can only see what is on the outside of a dead body, But Jesus could look beyond the body and see the girl only asleep and not dead.

As for the Prodigal son in Luke 15:24---"For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry"

This being , ( for this my son was Spiritually dead to God, and is Spiritual alive again to God)
( He was lost to God and is found believing in God again) and they began to rejoice.

To understand all of this is to have spiritual discernment, As it is written in
1 Corinthians 2:14---"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"

Therefore to understand many things in the Bible is to have spiritual discernment by the Spirit of God.

You see, this is why many people have such a hard time with things in the Bible.
Because they are looking thru the eyes of the natural man, and not thru the eyes of Spirit of God.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
In Mark 12:26--" 26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"

In the Bible ( Scriptures ) many things are two folded, here in Mark 12:26, the dead are not dead in a grave.
They are Spiritually dead to God.
Like Atheists, They are Spiritually dead to God, they don't believe in God, So they would be considered Spiritually dead to God.

Mark 12:27--"He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err"

There you have it, God is not the God of the dead, This being the Spiritual dead.

But the God of the living, The living being those who believe in God. That are Spiritually alive to God.

Here in Luke 8:52--"And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth"

As humans we view people as dead, But in the eyes of Jesus sees them as asleep not dead.
Why is that ?
We humans can only see what is on the outside of a dead body, But Jesus could look beyond the body and see the girl only asleep and not dead.

As for the Prodigal son in Luke 15:24---"For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry"

This being , ( for this my son was Spiritually dead to God, and is Spiritual alive again to God)
( He was lost to God and is found believing in God again) and they began to rejoice.

To understand all of this is to have spiritual discernment, As it is written in
1 Corinthians 2:14---"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"

Therefore to understand many things in the Bible is to have spiritual discernment by the Spirit of God.

You see, this is why many people have such a hard time with things in the Bible.
Because they are looking thru the eyes of the natural man, and not thru the eyes of Spirit of God.
Its a challenging and a thoughtful reply. One can be standing on two feet and dead to others.

I would rather leave discussion of atheists as a separate topic as you can be atheist in your head but a believer with your actions, just as you can believe with your head and have atheist actions I allude to the parable of sheep and goats but also to the obvious. Occasionally Huckleberry Finn obeys his conscience even though he believes he is wrong to do something, even though those around him tell him he is wrong.

Great parable you bring up about the prodigal son. He is dead because he is cut off. We are all part of one great vine, and if we leave we are unable to produce or regrow but can be grafted back on. In the parable alive or dead is philosophically about being part of the whole. This has to do with those who have wandered away, and it means we can come home again.

I feel that the word spiritual is a transliteration from the Koine pneuma, but now there is a word that captures it better which is conceptual. Spiritual though has something conceptual doesnt, the idea of life. I would like lifegiving conceptual except its too long. I do not think that atheists really oppose God so severely that they deserve special status. They generally think all things are connected and not that our lives are controlled by warring or dice rolling gods. That is, they are not idolaters by default.
 

Miracle

Christian
Matthew contains verses which claim to be fulfillments, and Bible Literalists tend to insist they fulfill predictions as if the Jewish prophets were somehow giving miraculous proofs of Jesus messianic position. This flaw in literalist apologetic arises frequently along with claims that the Bible is perfect and claims that it is a complete, whole work of God. It arises from the constraints Bible literalists place upon themselves and their need to prove primacy for scripture. An example is Matthew 2:17, but a quick lookup in a concordance shows there are at least eight places where Matthew says an event in Jesus life is a fulfillment. Find any prediction of any of the fulfillments mentioned by Matthew, but you cannot. These fulfillments are not fulfillments of predictions thus embarrassing the already terrible record of Bible literalists.

Hello! Sorry I haven't been on in a while. I've planned to comment for sometime now...But I've been just busy with work and all. Again, my apologies.

As for your comment, I am confused as to what you are trying to say. You are right that Matthew shows us when prophecies have been fulfilled. But he also reminds us that he isn't the one who prophecies; the prophets did or rather God gave them the promise that the Messiah would come and such and such events would take place.

Matthew 2:17 "Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying"

Here Matthew is referring to a prophecy made by Jeremiah about a specific a event that would take place during the year of Christ's coming.

Matthew 2:18 "In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not"

&

Jeremiah 31:15 "Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not."

Rachel being the wife of Jacob (Israel). This verse uses Rachel as a representative for these woman who lost their children. And she can also be a representative for Israel because of a nations ability to expand in population, so too, a woman is able to reproduce.

We can also look at Matthew 12:17-18 & Isaiah 42:1 where it talks about God sending his elect with his spirit to lead the Gentiles. Of which Christ has done through spiritual means. Remember what I said, that the Old Testament though its bases is in the physical, it has spiritual implications which is why it is not forgotten about in the Christian faith. The Old Testament is our school master. "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:24-27). That being said, the Old Testament taught us about God's standard of holiness, however, those who followed the law could not be holy because of sin. When Christ came, he destroyed that sinful nature and gave us a Godly nature, one that would allow us to keep the standard of God.

It's sort of interesting to know that when Christ came, he set the standard even higher (while also giving us the means to live through the blood and power of Himself/Holy Spirit) and revealed the will of God that we would hold tighter to God rather than trusting in our abilities.

Even if you disagree, I pray this comment has at least touched upon some of the things you mentioned. In your response.

God bless!
 

Miracle

Christian
What Jesus says to the Saducee is that God is not the God of the dead but of the living. This catches them in their literalism. He specifically does not call death the beginning of a new life. You are adding that, and I take issue. Jesus own parable (Lazarus & the Rich Man) makes the point that a resurrection cannot convince anyone to repent, yet you have just told me the opposite that repentance will give me an extra life. Surely you see the irony? I consider repentance to be a resurrection from a false life that is dead in sins and for good reason. Also Devil is a Jewish concept akin to the prosecutor in a courtroom, only it is someone who makes a false charge and presses it against someone. Sin first appears in the story of Cain. Sin crouches at Cain's door ready to conquer him. This should remind you of the term Satan used in Christianity. It does not? You do not see that the Devil and Satan are part of you and I? What does James say but that each person is dragged away by his own sin and enticed and dies as a result. Literalism tends to obfuscate it.

What we can see from Jesus' interaction with the Saducee is their carnality. Your definition of literalism, seems to be carnality. The Saducee were not thinking from a spiritual or spirit-filled standpoint as Jesus was. This reminds me of Nicodemus who did not understand Christ's message of being born again, a spiritual concept (John 3:3-7).

It seems we may have a different interpretation of life. When the Sadducees came to Jesus, they inquired, " In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife" (23). They believed that once one is resurrected (from the dead) they would carry on earthly functions in heaven. Christ clarified that such belief does not correlate with God's declaration that he is the God of the living not the dead. So we must ask ourselves what kind of "living/life" is Jesus talking about? If there is such a thing as the resurrection, where those that die rise up again...are they still declared dead? When Jesus Christ rose from the grave was he declared dead or alive? Did he have the same body that he had on earth or was there a new one?

Christ made several points through his parable, however, it would not be right to say that Christ Jesus' resurrection did not bring many to repentance. After all, it is by his death and resurrection we are free from sin and given power over the devil. Because to say, "resurrection cannot convince anyone to repent" is to say that Christ's death and resurrection can not save us.

Haha! I had to reread your comment a few times to really grasp what you are talking about. What I am telling you is this,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24).

Question, how can someone who is alive (you would need to be alive to hear the word of Jesus Christ and believe in God) be passed from death to life? Because it is a spiritual event that Jesus makes plain through his comment to a potential follower, "Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God" (Luke 9:60). And what of this verse, "But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth" (1 Timothy 5:6). And what of the Old Testament stance, "...the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4) and when God told Adam and Eve of the punishment for disobedience, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen 2:17). And let me remind you, Adam and eve were not immortal either (Gen 3:22), and yet after eating the fruit they did not die. What we do see is a separation from God and the lack of knowledge of God. Adam and Eve were not able to relate with God as they used to neither were they able to walk with God and commune as previously. And taking into consideration the verses within the New Testament, we see a behind the scenes of what God meant by "ye shall die". It is not a physical death, as that is guaranteed because they weren't immortal, but it was a spiritual death in which they would be separated from God, who is life; "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself" (John 5:26). This can be extended to everyone today. Because of sin we are dead/separated from God, who is life. But, when we accept Jesus Christ, the light of the world and the life, we are revived/resurrected/born again, making us dead to sin, and free from bondage.

Reading the New Testament opens ones eyes to grasp the spiritual which is extremely necessary when going through life. Man was created with a spirit and a body. It doesn't make sense that we only focus on the physical/earthly aspect of our life and ignore the spiritual. As creations of God, we should also be aware of the warfare that's going on spiritually between good and evil, God and the devil.

The word sin appears with Cain, but what is sin? Sin is simply anything that goes against the word of God, anything that is wrong/evil/unrighteous as defined by God. Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they sinned. Even without the word being mentioned, we see that sin has been in existence before the birth of Cain. What's also interesting to note, is that the devil/Satan/Lucifer was not in God's creation; man was never inherently evil but because of sin, because man gave over their dominion to the devil, it tossed everyone into slavery, into sin; making us children of the devil rather than children of God (1 John 3:8). This reminds me of Snow White, when the evil witch poisons her and having both the title of the most beautiful in the land and also remaining queen over the kingdom.

But the beauty of Jesus Christ's death on the cross is that it brings an end to sin and gives us our dominion/rulership/kingship back. Enabling us to be sons and daughters of God and allowing us to be awarded the same power Jesus Christ had on earth. Of course it doesn't mean we are God, but it means we can be like him.

"The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord" (Matthew 10:24).

Simple. He repents and is made righteous. You wish to believe the man gets another life, but the message is for us to encourage us not to disregard a moment nor the value of repentance. The thief is in paradise not will be. The Greek (so I am told) can translate to "Today I tell you you are with me in paradise." Nevertheless even if it doesn't translate our lives should be about love not about heaven and escaping from our duties.

People who say, "our lives should be about love not about heaven and escaping from our duties" have failed to understand the core of Christianity. The core of Christianity is love. The Bible is a love letter from God to mankind warning us about the doom that is to come. And, it calls us to repent and to come to him for freedom from sin and destruction. The world we live in is sinful and evil because of the sinfulness of mankind and the devil's tactics in keeping man in sin. God, who plans on judging the world, the people who do evil, and the devil who deceived them, is calling us to flee from sin by believing on Jesus Christ and living like him. Promising us freedom from sin, protection over our lives, and the chance to live with him forever. That is the point of our creation, to be with God and to commune with him as was done before the fall in Genesis. Now that the world is tainted with sin, God promises to destroy evil, punish bad and re-establish that environment of peace, love and freedom as was seen with Adam and Eve.

The whole duty of man is, "Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man" (Ecclesiastes 12:13) and for Christians, "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15). When we keep the commandments of God, when we live by the teachings of Jesus Christ, we become the embodiment of love. Our devotion is to God, our desire is to be with God. It's like sending your child to school, at the end of the day, they want to come home. That can be extended to Christians, we are sent out to preach the gospel of love and live by it until its time to go home. We do not forget our duty of preaching and loving those who hate us and neither do we forget the promise Jesus Christ made to us, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:2-3).

I hope this clarified a few things. If you have any more thoughts that are outside of the topic feel free to let me know and we can continue in pm or maybe in person. :D

God bless!
 
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