Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
Matthew 1:18
The Holy Spirit is not the Father. Three separate persons ....
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Matthew 1:18
Sorry, I can't buy that there were two beings and one was God and the other something else. We can't blame everything on language differences.
So now the holy spirit is the father, and yet is the spirit is of the father?Fair enough. It strongly implies it rather than stating it out right.
On the other hand ... Matthew 1:18 is very clear about it. The holy Ghost/Spirit is the Father.
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. (Matthew 1:18)
The holy Spirit is not separate from God the Father. The holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father. This is the only reasonable conclusion when you mesh together Matthew 10:20 and Mark 13:11.
Not to mention John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Maybe that is where the problem occurs. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father who is described as "God". That does not mean Jesus can't also be God.
It also says Mary was overcome by the power of God. Maybe the Holy Spirit is not a separate person but just a personification of God's power.Please do not be taken in. 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
I view God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost as three different beings. (JS said personages).
I think I might be done talking to any JW because of the trickery.
It also says Mary was overcome by the power of God. Maybe the Holy Spirit is not a separate person but just a personification of God's power.
Jesus said God's word is truth, and persons will be judged by that word. The apostles had the revelation, and wrote it down.I can't resist.
Seriously though, no I'm definitely not a genius.
Do you know what a revelation is? It's something revealed by God and not mankind. There is a wisdom that is higher than mankind and beyond his reach. So we must look to God to give it. He gives it to whoever He will; irregardless of intelligence.
According to scripture, that's where his holy spirit come in. It is his active force that moves throughout the universe.God is omnipresent and everywhere at once. (Jeremiah 23:24) Otherwise we would be in trouble because God could not hear all people's prayers at once.
Why don't you answer these two posts now then?I think I will make a new thread soon to discuss this topic. How and why God became a man. I've been planning to do it for awhile.
You could try to answer, and then determine whether or not I was showing some form of "bias" based on how I responded at that time. To assume I would at this point seems just a tad premature.I'm sorry, but I really don't understand exactly what you are saying or asking. I'm not sure what you ostensibly want me to explain, but I have a feeling that whatever it is you wouldn't buy my answer. You seem biased against me.
If you mean the scriptural doctrine, yes. The trinity doctrine teaches contrary - falsely claiming that Jesus is both fully God and man. No.But, you see, the doctrine admits that Jesus was fully human.
I agree. I understand the use of the word "one" pretty much as you do.Your solution is perfect. The key is in fact understanding what is meant when Jesus said he and his father are one.
1Cor 3:6-8,
6 I (Paul) have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.We can't assume that 2 things being called "one" means they are the same thing. A group of people being called "one" is a common phrase we use to mean they are united in purpose, they both work together for a common goal. In any case, Paul and Apollos were most certainly not the same person even though they were called "one."
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth (Paul) and he that watereth (Apollos) are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
You're not exactly making sense here. You're saying that we all have a sinful nature but that neither Adam nor Jesus did, that both of them came into the world without sin. I believe that each and every one of us came into the world without sin. We are predisposed to being sinful, but we are not guilty of anything until we actually do wrong. And by the time we have reached a point where we can understand the difference between right and wrong, we will have done wrong, and will continue to do wrong. The pull of sin is simply too great for us to withstand.Why in world is it imperative that he even be God? The story reads just fine if they are taken as a father and His son. Jesus was born, like Adam, with innocent blood. They both had the same free will you and I have. They were both tempted like you and I. Of course you and I, being descendants of Adam come into the world with tainted blood, so we haven't a prayer of living a sin free life. But both Jesus and Adam had a shot at living a sin free life because they both came into the world sin free. They did not have a sin nature like everybody since Adam. Jesus started out with innocent blood as did Adam. Adam sinned, whereas Jesus always did his father's will, even to the death of the cross, not a pretty way to die.
My belief is that He inherited His mortality from His mother, a mortal, and His divinity from His Father, who was God. He would therefore have both the qualities and characteristics of both of His parents. From His mother, He would have received a mortal body, subject to pain, disease, injury and death; He would also have received from her the ability to be tempted and the ability to sin. From His Father, He would have received the ability to "have life in himself," i.e. to have power over death, the power to "take [His life] again" after having laid it down. Speaking of "big deals," that's a pretty enormous one. How many men like you and I have that power? Only a Deity could do that. And acknowledging that power which He had in and of Himself, is giving Him the credit He deserves.If he were God, what's the big deal? But if he was a man like you and I, his accomplishment becomes monumental. Don't take that away from him. Give him the credit he deserves.
I don't get your point of your question here. Yes, the Plan required a Redeemer. It wouldn't have mattered whether Jesus Christ came down to fulfill that role 3000 years before He did, when He did, or 1500 years later. He was the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." He alone could do this because He alone was perfect, as His Father was perfect.God had a plan, the logos of John 1:1 (study what the word logos really meant to the folks at the time that John was written, don't just substitute the word "Jesus" for it). God came up with that plan (logos) which required that a man (Jesus) get us out of the mess that another man (Adam) got us into. Otherwise why didn't he just come down right after Adam sinned and make things right?
Are you saying that God convinced Jesus to do what He did, and that this happened after He was born, and that this role was not His in the beginning?The things God had to plan for are incredibly complex. He had to convince another man to follow His will in order to undo the mess the first man did by not following His will. It was an incredibly complex plan to somehow get some man to say, "not my will, but thine be done." He couldn't force Jesus into doing anything. He had to persuade him via the scriptures, the writings of the Old Testament. No human could ever conceive of such a plan, but thankfully God is not a human! Jesus was a human, but not God.
Wow. I just can't buy that. Sorry. I believe that Jesus Christ was with His Father before our world was ever created and that He, in fact, created it under His Father's direction. I believe He was chosen before the Creation to be our Savior, and that despite the fact that He had it within His power to refuse to do His Father's will, He could have reneged on His promise. Rather than do so, He willingly gave up His life for us, proving that He and His Father were, indeed "one in will, purpose, mind and heart."Making Jesus God not only robs God his due worship for coming up with the plan (logos) in the first place, but it also robs Jesus of the his accomplishment in following that plan to the letter, despite the great personal cost. Jesus could have sinned at any point in his life (unlike God). He could have easily taken the devil up on the offer of ruling over all the kingdoms of the world. The devil was quite correct when he told Jesus it was in his power to do just that, and Jesus knew that. Fortunately for us, he didn't. Other wise we'd still be waiting for redemption. All in all, the scriptures make a much better story if the 2 main characters are kept straight.
To me, what's clear is that if He had a divine Father, He was divine as well as mortal. Mary was indeed His Mother; God was indeed His Father. The word "Father" is not a meaningless label. Jesus Christ was the "Only Begotten Son" of God, and God did not beget any other human beings.Before this Luke 1:31, and this John 1:14, and this John 3:16, and this Hebrews 10:5, the logos - the word - the only begotten son of God, was divine - like God or a god, in nature.
When Mary did become pregnant, the above verses were fulfilled. The word became flesh, and eventually was born, and given the name Jesus - a fleshly being - a mortal - not a divine being - not a god, but a man.
Is it any clearer?
Where was the Father when He became the Son? According to scripture, the Son frequently referenced His Father as being in Heaven. He frequently prayed to Him, and He said that His Father was greater than He. None of that makes sense if the Father became the Son.Yes definitely. Jesus was God manifest in the flesh.
Hasty? I'm nearly 70 years old. Do you think this is the first time I've ever given this any thought? What in the world makes you think I haven't done plenty of studying the scriptures and praying about them in my lifetime?Why so hasty? (James 1:19) Pray about it. Study a bit into the scriptures to see if I'm right. Give it some thought at least.
Are you saying you think I am being taken in?Please do not be taken in.
As do I, but then you already know that.I view God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost as three different beings. (JS said personages).
I can certainly understand that. My experience in talking to them on this forum has never resulted in anything other than a huge argument, for the simple reason that they always insist on having the last word. There are times when it just makes sense for people to say, "Yeah, I get that you believe that and I understand your rationale for doing so. But my reasons for not believing as you do are [such and such]." There comes a point at which further arguing is simply unproductive. There are a couple of JWs currently posting on RF with whom I think I might be able to have a respectful dialogue. But I've thought that before and have been mistaken.I think I might be done talking to any JW because of the trickery.
Scriptural reference pleaseWell maybe not. A human being has two aspects. One is the physical body and one is the spirit. A regular person has a human body and a human spirit. Jesu has a human body but his spirit was godly. That is how He was fully human ( in body) and fully divine (in spirit) at the same time. Jesus was God in human form because He had the spirit of God.
The Bible actually says that God is the "Father of spirits." That means that He is the Father of the spirits of each and every one of us. Our parents, on the other hand, are the parents of our physical body.Well maybe not. A human being has two aspects. One is the physical body and one is the spirit. A regular person has a human body and a human spirit. Jesu has a human body but his spirit was godly. That is how He was fully human ( in body) and fully divine (in spirit) at the same time. Jesus was God in human form because He had the spirit of God.
Not sure how you don't see that Jesus is special and different. Even Jehovah's Witnesses believe He was Michael an angel before He was born. So your argument here refutes Michael being Jesus. Because you say Jesus only had a human spirit.Scriptural reference please
According to scripture, the only spirit man has is the one mentioned in these verses.
Genesis 2:7; Job 12:10; 27:3; 33:4; 4:14, 15; Psalm 104:29, 30; 146:4; Ecclesiastes 3:19-21; 12:7
That spirit is not divine.
Many persons had the spirit of God, but they were not God. Acts 2:17, 18
Language difference? What do you mean? Explain please.Sorry, I can't buy that there were two beings and one was God and the other something else. We can't blame everything on language differences.
So now the holy spirit is the father, and yet is the spirit is of the father?
More confusion.
What you are saying is not of the spirit of God.
Jesus said he cast out devils by means of God's finger - his holy spirit. God sent the spirit upon Jesus and the disciples. God gave the holy spirit to Jesus, who in turn poured it out on the disciples. God promised to send another comforter besides Jesus - the holy spirit.
You are contradicting the scriptures more and more.
What are you trying to do?
The holy spirit is not the father.
Take a look here, and here.
Jesus was special and different, as he was a sinless perfect human, but the scriptures evidently do not support the teaching you are promoting.Not sure how you don't see that Jesus is special and different. Even Jehovah's Witnesses believe He was Michael an angel before He was born. So your argument here refutes Michael being Jesus. Because you say Jesus only had a human spirit.
Here is scriptural reference you asked for:
Colossians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
So that means in Jesus dwells all the fullness of the divinity bodily. That means in His body the fullness of what it means to be God was living.
Also supported in Colossians 1:19
Colossians 1:19 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,