The Trinity in Luke 2:40-56

nPeace said:

You are saying that it is possible for God to become Satan?

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Are you insinuating that being Jesus is the same as being satan?

Please note carefully that Jesus cannot deny Himself. (2 Timothy 2:12-13) This we know of God Almighty; although He can do anything. He cannot deny Himself. So God cannot become satan. Satan is evil. God is good. But God can become Jesus because Jesus was always good.

2 Timothy 2
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

74x12 said:

No, because that contradicts God's nature. God cannot be evil. But note carefully that according to the scriptures Jesus was without sin. So being Jesus does not contradict God's nature.

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I certainly would agree that God cannot be evil, and I would also agree that Jesus Christ never sinned. Both of those statements are besides the point, though. "God is not the author of confusion," and if you genuinely believe that the Father is His own Son and the Son is His own Father, you're simply not using the brain that God gave you. This convoluted logic results in so many contradictions in the Bible that I'd hardly know where to begin in listing them all.

But let's just look at one example, John 14:28, in which Jesus says, "I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." If the Father = the Son, then...

1. Jesus is saying that He is going to where He already is.
2. He is saying that He is greater than Himself.

iam1me said:

You've already stated you think it refers to a specific subset of people. Jesus, on the other hand, applies it liberally - to those who received God's word. If you have serious evidence I'll consider it - but nothing presented so far is in agreement with Jesus' interpretation of the passage.

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People yes. But not humans. These are angels.

iam1me said:

You're argument about "you" versus "them" indeed holds no weight. Just because you personally wouldn't have stated it as such doesn't invalidate the way that Jesus said it.

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It does hold wait. Why did Jesus say "them" when He was talking to Jews? According to you; this verse is about the Jews. So why didn't Jesus say "you"?

Katzpur said:

I'm certainly not going to argue that God cannot be evil, and I'm certainly not going to argue that Jesus ever sinned. Both of those statements are besides the point, though. "God is not the author of confusion," though, and if you genuinely believe that the Father is His own Son and the Son is His own Father, you're simply not using the brain that God gave you.

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You're being hasty. The explanation is really not that complicated.

74x12 said:

You're being hasty. The explanation is really not that complicated.

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Oh really? The Father is His own Son and the Son is His own Father. If the explanation is really not that complicated, please explain it. If you are able to, you're the greatest genius the world has ever known.

74x12 said:

It does hold wait.

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I believe you meant to say "weight."

nPeace said:

The reason that won't work, is because Jesus was not divine - no text says that. The logos was.

It could work this way though.
If you insert the definite article where it was in the original text, and capitalize all the letters as it was originally, that could work.
John 1:1
IN THE BEGINNING, THE WORD WAS, AND THE WORD WAS WITH THE GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

That works fine, because the logos, or word is a divine being, that became flesh/mortal/human.

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So you are saying there were two separate "beings"? One was called God and one was called Word. But it says the Word WAS God. So are they really the same "being"? And if the Word became flesh or human did it have another name? Did anyone ever report seeing this human named Word?

nPeace said:

There is nothing here that suggests anything different to what you agreed to earlier - Jesus is the son of God.
He further teaches that he is not equal to God - his father who sent him.

This is what the spirit of God teaches those who listen to what the spirit says.
We only find difficulty when we don't accept this truth.
Remember, the scriptures warn that there will be false teachers, so we need to stick with what Jesus taught, and not be led astray.

The Trinity was never taught in the time of Jesus and his apostles.
So tell me. If you agree that Jesus taught that he is God's son, and not equal to God, what reason would you have to believe otherwise... unless it is because those who teach otherwise have been able to seduce you?

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Well first of all I don't believe the trinity doctrine! I'm oneness. A heretic according to many trinitarian theologians. And no one is denying Jesus is the Son. Doesn't it say so in Luke 1:35? Of course He is not equal with the Father. Do you know who is the Father? Luke 1:35 tells us the holy Spirit is the Father!

Jesus was born of the holy Spirit in the womb of Mary. So He was born flesh and blood. Flesh and blood cannot be equal with the holy Spirit. So of course He is subordinate(in the flesh) to the holy Spirit. Of course He is flesh. Of course He is the Son of God. But that doesn't mean His Spirit is not the same as the holy Spirit.

God is omnipresent and can send His Spirit. His Spirit can move upon things and act here or there. All without any limitations. So it's no surprise the holy Spirit inhabited a human body. Jesus the only begotten Son of God.

Katzpur said:

I believe you meant to say "weight."

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Yes.

74x12 said:

Luke 1:35 tells us the holy Spirit is the Father!

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No it doesn't. It says, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee." If the Spirit were the Father, it would say, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and His power shall overshadow thee." The Holy Ghost is not "The Highest." The Holy Ghost definitely had a role in the conception of Jesus Christ, but there is no way Luke says the Spirit is the Father.

God is omnipresent and can send His Spirit. His Spirit can move upon things and act here or there. All without any limitations. So it's no surprise the holy Spirit inhabited a human body. Jesus the only begotten Son of God.

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The more you post, the more problems jump out at me. If God is ontologically omnipresent, then He doesn't need to "send His Spirit." Where would He "send" it to? If it's already present everywhere, it's already where you say He could "send" it, including to Jesus' body, and to your body and mine, and Donald Trump's and everybody else's. And if He (the Father), sent His spirit to His Only Begotten Son, did He relinquish it at that time? If He didn't, in other words, if He retained it while simultaneously sending to His Son, why did His Son have to commend it back to His Father's hands when He died?

Katzpur said:

No it doesn't. It says, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee." If the Spirit were the Father, it would say, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and His power shall overshadow thee." The Holy Ghost is not "The Highest." The Holy Ghost definitely had a role in the conception of Jesus Christ, but there is no way Luke says the Spirit is the Father.

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Fair enough. It strongly implies it rather than stating it out right.

On the other hand ... Matthew 1:18 is very clear about it. The holy Ghost/Spirit is the Father.

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. (Matthew 1:18)

The holy Spirit is not separate from God the Father. The holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father. This is the only reasonable conclusion when you mesh together Matthew 10:20 and Mark 13:11.

Not to mention John 4:24

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Ellen Brown said:

Exodus 33:11 The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Believe it or not. I am really up to here with people who try to explain things away. There are people who try to explain Matt 5 away. Or how about Matt 19:12, or even Isaiah 56:4-5? You think the Bible is like a fruit stand, where you can just pick and choose? SERIOUSLY ???

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I don't believe that the Bible contradicts itself....do you? So if a scripture says something that appears to contradict other scripture, we need to research and find all the verses on that subject and instead of taking one scripture at face value that contradicts several other verses, try to see what ties them together.
As long as it doesn't venture into personal conjecture without consulting the other verses, I believe that getting to the truth is a relatively simple matter.

Interpretation is only as good as the interpreters. If the interpretation fights with other scripture, then it is in error. Keep looking....keep knocking....keep seeking for the truth. It's there.

And the idea that Moses was speaking to an Angel? WHAT ? If you don't believe the Bible then you may as well just burn it on a cold winter night in a fireplace.

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Well God spoke to Moses in the account about the burning bush.....was it God speaking?......it plainly states that it was an angel, yet he spoke as if Jehovah himself was speaking. (Exodus 3:1-12) We already know from the account I quoted to you, that no human would survive face to face communication with God. So what are we to assume in this?

So, what do you think Ezekiel saw, or was he just sitting in the shade smoking Hash? Or what do you think happened when Jesus was suddenly in a room with the disciples? And what about his escape from the crowd that wanted to beat him up?

The Bible is full of inexplicable things, deal with it.

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I do not see them as inexplicable. The Bible explains itself if you know what it teaches. Having snatches of information doesn't fill in the blanks....knowledge does that. It isn't hidden...it's all there.

This makes me almost as upset as when a certain group of people use their unholy escape clause; "The Bible is correct, in as much as it is translated correctly".

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Do you think that there is one truth? If so, because Jehovah is a God of order, not chaos, don't you think that in amongst the rabble, there would be a beacon of truth? Do you think that beacon of truth is going to be obvious? Think about the power of the opposition. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4; 1 John 5:19) Yet, the only ones he can "blind" are "unbelievers".....what is an "unbeliever" in God's eyes? Think about it. Obviously not everyone who claims Jesus as their "Lord" will merit his approval. (Matthew 7:21-23)
Can those who subscribe to false Christianity also be included in that category?

Why do you think Jesus said that "few" are on the 'cramped and narrow road to life'. (Matthew 7:13-14) Why is it "cramped and narrow"? Who makes it hard to find the truth? Not God. Sometimes it's we who stand in our own way because of holding to beliefs that are not true. We can become emotionally attached to those beliefs, but in vain.

No one can come to God except through Christ (John 14:6)....but no one can come to Christ except by invitation of the Father. (John 6:44) Who does God "draw" to the truth that Jesus taught?

The truth is not confusing....falsehood is.
Keeping it simple is the key IMO.

74x12 said:

On the other hand ... Matthew 1:18 is very clear about it. The holy Ghost/Spirit is the Father.

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It does say that, and you do have a compelling argument there. It's one, though that would only make sense to someone like you who believes that The Holy Spirit = the Father, a concept which too many other verses seem to refute. According to my belief, God is Jesus Christ's literal Father, conceived through the power of the Holy Ghost. I'm thinking this is one case of where we're simply going to have to agree to disagree. We do, however, agree that the doctrine of the Trinity is false.

Katzpur said:

Oh really? The Father is His own Son and the Son is His own Father. If the explanation is really not that complicated, please explain it. If you are able to, you're the greatest genius the world has ever known.

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I can't resist.

Seriously though, no I'm definitely not a genius.

Do you know what a revelation is? It's something revealed by God and not mankind. There is a wisdom that is higher than mankind and beyond his reach. So we must look to God to give it. He gives it to whoever He will; irregardless of intelligence.

Katzpur said:

But let's just look at one example, John 14:28, in which Jesus says, "I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." If the Father = the Son, then...

1. Jesus is saying that He is going to where He already is.
2. He is saying that He is greater than Himself.

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God is omnipresent and everywhere at once. (Jeremiah 23:24) Otherwise we would be in trouble because God could not hear all people's prayers at once.

I think I will make a new thread soon to discuss this topic. How and why God became a man. I've been planning to do it for awhile.

Disciple of Jesus said:

Wrong again. I don't believe that the H. Spirit is a person.

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And now you have gone completely left-field bringing up a topic not previously discussed. Quote the wrong person?

74x12 said:

People yes. But not humans. These are angels.

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That is not how Jesus uses it.

It does hold wait. Why did Jesus say "them" when He was talking to Jews? According to you; this verse is about the Jews. So why didn't Jesus say "you"?

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He says "them" because he is explaining who is referred to in Psalm 82. It's not difficult to understand.

74x12 said:

Do you know what a revelation is? It's something revealed by God and not mankind.

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I do. My Church is founded on the concept that the heavens are not closed and that God continues to reveal Himself.

There is a wisdom that is higher than mankind and beyond his reach. So we must look to God to give it. He gives it to whoever He will; irregardless of intelligence.

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I agree with that 100%

God is omnipresent and everywhere at once. (Jeremiah 23:24) Otherwise we would be in trouble because God could not hear all people's prayers at once.

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I believe He is functionally omnipresent, but ontologically "in Heaven," which is exactly where the Bible says He is.

I think I will make a new thread soon to discuss this topic. How and why God became a man. I've been planning to do it for awhile.

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That would be interesting. I'm assuming that you're saying that God the Father became a man; am I correct in my assumption?

Katzpur said:

That would be interesting. I'm assuming that you're saying that God the Father became a man; am I correct in my assumption?

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Yes. God is only one person; unlike the trinity doctrine concept of "Three in one".

iam1me said:

That is not how Jesus uses it.

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Jesus uses it to show that some people are called gods in the scriptures and since they can't explain it; they have no right to accuse Him of blasphemy. In other words they don't know what they're talking about.

74x12 said:

Jesus uses it to show that some people are called gods in the scriptures and since they can't explain it; they have no right to accuse Him of blasphemy. In other words they don't know what they're talking about.

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Agreed; but it is more than "some" - it are those who have received God's word.