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Why is hell eternal?

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I always wondered the same thing about hell. Why is it eternal. I have met some wonderful non believing people in my lifetime. Some of them i know very well.

I also have met a lot of christians, and i dont sense much good there. Im not very fond of their judgments. It is blind to experience.

Experiencing reality, vs. Seeing it through the eyes of a book. I chose my experience of reality over the so called power of a book.

I did not let fear stand in my way. I chose to see things for myself. If God be real God would have made us to see things for ourselves, and not have to be reliant on words.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Hell is both separation from God and the presence of God.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction FROM THE PRESENCE of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

I think you put the wrong words in capitals in that scripture....

"For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 NASB)

What does "destruction" mean? Can anyone who has been 'destroyed' still be alive?

In John 3:16 we have a beautiful scripture often recited in church...."For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (NASB) All emphasis is placed on the first part and none on the second part of that verse. What is contrasted with eternal life? That the person will "perish". In Greek the word is "apollymi" and it means.....(according to Strongs)

"to destroy....to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin......render useless....to kill"

It is eternal death that is contrasted with eternal life. Why does God need to torment anyone? It is fiendish to even suggest such a thing.
In order to torment the wicked forever, God would have to grant them conscious life.....Jesus sentenced the Pharisees to "gehenna" which was the city's garbage dump, kept burning day and night by the addition of "brimstone" in order to consume the refuse. It was a metaphor for complete destruction. Whatever the flames missed, the maggots would finish off.
It meant that if one was cast into gehenna there would be nothing left.

Revelation 14:10-11 :The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone IN THE PRESENCE of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

This speaking about the ones who will merit God's adverse judgment at the end of the present age. Including the preceding verse it says....

"Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus."


Perhaps you answer some questions about this passage that you quoted?

Who are they that "worship the beast and its image" and in what way do they do so?

What is the "beast" and what is its "image" that humans are told to worship?

Where are they being tormented if Jesus and the angels are present, but they are separated from God?

What is the "fire and brimstone"? Where else is this mentioned in the scriptures?

What is "the smoke of their torment" that ascends "forever and ever"? Why is it smoke and not flames?

Why are God's people the ones who cannot engage in this worship of the beast and its image?

Why do the "saints" need "perseverance" in order to "keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus"?

It is one thing to quote scripture but another entirely to understand what it means in context.

I will be interested in your reply....

Those that died in their sin will be forever separated from the glory of God and at the same time be tormented in the presence of the Holy Angels and in the presence of the Lamb. This is all a part of Divine retribution.

Does divine retribution entail one part of God overseeing "hell" and maintaining the torment along with the angels, whilst God is somewhere else? How is this a separation from God if they are still alive in the presence of Jesus? That doesn't make much sense to me. What about you? :shrug:

PS Are you a Pastor by any chance?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I always wondered the same thing about hell. Why is it eternal.

If it means a permanent state, then it is eternal. Who said it had to be conscious?
The Bible calls death a "sleep"....God is the one who determines who wakes up. The wicked will not.

I have met some wonderful non believing people in my lifetime. Some of them i know very well.

Me too. Most of my family are not believers and I love them dearly. I have neighbors and former work colleagues for whom I maintain a cordial friendship. I do not condemn them for their choices. Their choices are theirs to make. They know what I believe and they have chosen their own beliefs. I respect that. Jesus didn't badger people or shame them into submission. He simply told them the truth and allowed them to make their own choices.I see supplying information as vital to making informed choices....so very often people make poor choices because they have limited information.

I also have met a lot of christians, and i dont sense much good there. Im not very fond of their judgments. It is blind to experience.

The one thing God hates more than anything is hypocrisy. Christian is as Christian does. As imitators of Jesus this is something that should come naturally....loving concern without judgment. The only judgments we are authorized to make are connected to the actions we choose to carry out ourselves. We can tell people about God's requirements and leave it to them to analyze and act...or not.

Experiencing reality, vs. Seeing it through the eyes of a book. I chose my experience of reality over the so called power of a book.

The book does have power though...I have seen it.

Hebrews 4:12..."For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart." (ESV)

These are God's words, so the one reading them will either be empowered to act on them....or will be repelled by them because the intentions of the heart are not sincere. It divides people as it should. There will only be two categories when the end comes...."sheep" and "goats". We choose which camp we want to be in.

I did not let fear stand in my way. I chose to see things for myself. If God be real God would have made us to see things for ourselves, and not have to be reliant on words.

God's spirit is constantly scanning the hearts of mankind to see their reaction to his word and to the Christian message. God is a reader of motives and intentions, not just minds.
He wants "all to attain to repentance", but he will not force people to worship him against their will. (2 Peter 3:9)
There are powerful forces working against us too, so we have to have a clear picture of where we are in the stream of time and exercise faith in God's promises if we want them to apply to us.

That is how I see things.
 
No he didn't, but the scripture I gave you in Matthew 13:34-35 indicated that illustrations were his prime method of teaching, so when you pick out one particular illustration among so many others because you think it supports a favoured belief, is not really taking scripture for why it was written. Jesus' rejection of the teachings of the Pharisees is supported throughout his ministry. But nowhere does he speak about heaven and hell as opposite destinations for human souls. It was not a Jewish belief. There is nothing like that in the OT, which is the only scripture Jesus used.



Jesus was part of the vision. He was fulfilling a promise made to his disciples. Both Moses and Elijah were long dead and John 3:13 tells us that no one went to heaven before Jesus, so these men were still literally dead. They entertained a future resurrection because this is what God taught his worshippers. (Acts 24:15) Even before Israel became a nation, God's servants believed in a resurrection, not immortality of the soul.



When you understand that Paul, like all the other apostles expected Jesus to set up his kingdom in heaven relatively soon, it is not surprising that they focused on where the holy spirit was directing them. It gave them an inordinate desire to go where Jesus had gone. Since humans were designed for life on earth, God's spirit gave the "chosen ones" a "heavenly calling".... a desire to live in heaven. They knew that it meant dying the same death as their Lord and being resurrected in the same kind of body that he had. They anticipated becoming immortal spirit beings in order to live in the presence of God. Remaining in their sinful body of flesh is what they wanted to end. There was no shadowy spiritual part of humans to go anywhere. Humans who die, "sleep" in the grave, waiting for Jesus to wake them up. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)
There is a "first resurrection" for those who will rule with Jesus (Revelation 20:6) and a general resurrection for those over whom they will rule. (John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:2-4)



With verdical NDE's the person having them was present and though unconscious, and could still be influenced in their thinking by unseen spirit forces which the Bible indicates are all around us. By not being in control of their thought processes and in a vulnerable condition, these forces can implant their deceptions. The perpetuation of satans first lie ("you surely will not die") is part of their agenda. Have you never wondered why NDE's are not experienced by everyone?.....and why they are often influenced by a person's religious beliefs? Immortal souls are found in almost every religious faith in the world....but you will not find them in the Bible.

Just as a side point, do you know anyone who suffers with delusions? Do you know how delusions differ from hallucinations? Chemical reactions in the brain can cause altered states of consciousness. I had a friend whose husband had lewie body dementia which causes delusions. What they see and hear whilst fully awake are as real to them as anything we see and hear. It is very difficult for them to come to grips with the fact that what they see and hear isn't real. They have to learn not to trust their senses. Before diagnosis, he and his wife had so many arguments about his delusions, until the doctors told him what his illness was doing to his perceptions. It was very difficult for him as you can imagine.

NDE's I imagine have a very similar effect on those who experience them. They are so real, but in what way?

Ok, lets assume the ritch man/lazarus is a parable. ALL Jesus parables are REAL things he used to COMPARE with OTHER REAL things. He never used MYTHOLOGICAL stories to compare with something real. Example: parable of the sower on different soils. Even though the parable was not meant to be teaching about farming, it was meant to teach about the word on different hearts, the story itself, farming was real none the less. You see where im going? Jesus never used myths to compare with realities.

So, why did a vision talk with Jesus? The verse about no one has gone into heaven, the way i understood that is no one in all of history has the knowledge of heaven Jesus has and came to earth with it. What about the verse that says "youl see abraham, isaac and jacob in the kingdom of HEAVEN"? if they wer not there?

Paul: paul said the words "depart FROM the body" and "remain IN the body". This implies hes not talking of the resurrection, atleast in this case.

Plus, if the resurection means we depart from this body, then that implies THIS body is not raised from death and thats not what the scripture states.

Ok, the NDEs. I see your point about the delusions, halucinations and satan mingling in the thoughts. However, if satan MAKES someone concious outside there suspended body/brain, he has thus made his so called lie to become TRUE. You see? Also thr veridical NDEs see information that is very specific and just dont seam like something a evil spirit would just tell them.

For example. This lady and her husband wer driving a motercycle and they crashed. She pops out her body, sees the scene below. Then is sucked into the tunnel vortex. Sees light. Enters it. Is in a paradise. Sees her husband and her husband tells her she must return to take care of there kids and shed return to see him again.

So she returned. She knew he died in otherwords BEFORE she got the official doctors news that he died.

Did satan really tell her he died when she was in the paradise setting? It just dont sound feasable.

Ok, your turn. Torch is yours again.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
My goodness! There are so many different opinions, some with no Scriptural evidence to back them up! If there is, it disagrees with other Scriptures.

They can't all be right.
 

Prometheus85

Active Member
They confirm because some folk experience hell in there NDE.

That’s a very simplistic way of looking at something very complex such as NDE’s, if only it were that easy. Earlier you said hell is not physical, instead it’s mental and emotional state. Now your saying it’s confirmed based on peoples testimonials?

What’s more likely? Miracles, or that peoples’ accounts of miracles are mistaken? We have very little evidence for miracles, but we have lots of evidence that people misunderstand, misperceive, exaggerate, or even make up stories about what they think they witnessed or experienced. My case in point, example of a miracle is the resurrection of the dead. What’s more likely, that dead people can come back to life, or that the accounts of dead people being resurrected are in error?

So we can ask ourselves what’s more likely: that NDE accounts represent descriptions of actual journeys to the afterlife or portrayals of experiences produced by brain activity? evidence converge to support the theory that NDEs are produced by the brain and are not stairways to heaven.
 
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My goodness! There are so many different opinions, some with no Scriptural evidence to back them up! If there is, it disagrees with other Scriptures.

They can't all be right.

Come on now, have you been keeping up with the thread? Many of us, including me have been qouting and discussing the scriptures.
 
That’s a very simplistic way of looking at something very complex such as NDE’s, if only it were that easy. Earlier you said hell is not physical, instead it’s mental and emotional state. Now your saying it’s confirmed based on peoples testimonials?

What’s more likely? Miracles, or that peoples’ accounts of miracles are mistaken? We have very little evidence for miracles, but we have lots of evidence that people misunderstand, misperceive, exaggerate, or even make up stories about what they think they witnessed or experienced. My case in point, example of a miracle is the resurrection of the dead. What’s more likely, that dead people can come back to life, or that the accounts of dead people being resurrected are in error?

So we can ask ourselves what’s more likely: that NDE accounts represent descriptions of actual journeys to the afterlife or portrayals of experiences produced by brain activity? evidence converge to support the theory that NDEs are produced by the brain and are not stairways to heaven.

You have evidence that peoples NDEs are misperceptions? Do give it.

I didnt make it simple. I just answered your question. You asked how do NDEs confirm hell. They DO because SOME folk experience a hell.

And saying the words "likely or unlikely" does not support your idea, that you try to inforce by the word "likely".

To me, its likely that there is a afterlife, based on evidence and reason.
 

Prometheus85

Active Member
You have evidence that peoples NDEs are misperceptions? Do give it.

I didnt make it simple. I just answered your question. You asked how do NDEs confirm hell. They DO because SOME folk experience a hell.

And saying the words "likely or unlikely" does not support your idea, that you try to inforce by the word "likely".

To me, its likely that there is a afterlife, based on evidence and reason.
You don’t get to ask me to provide proof lol That’s not how it works. You’re the one that made an extraordinary claim. So the bruden of proof falls on you. If’s there’s evidence provide it. Testimonials are not evidence, we’ve been threw this already. If someone said the had a dream were elephants were flying are u going to believe elephants can fly? Yes you did make something very complex seem simple. How can u possibility tell NDE confirm hell? Because people claim that had visions of hell/heaven? Even if it’s true HOW DO U KNOW IT S TRUE!? Were u there to experience it with them?

Also it’s a fact that the people who experience them are not actually dead. They’re only near death. Hence the term near death experience. Being near death, a state in which the brain may undergo stress, be deprived of oxygen, release neurochemicals that can mimic the hallucinatory trips of drug users, or experience any one of the dozens of anomalous neurological anomalies, abnormalities, or disorders that have been documented by neurologists and neuroscientists. You see how complex that is. You just made it seem like you die, go to heaven or hell come back to life and tell everyone about lol

In psychology there’s a term for that. It’s called magical thinking.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Ok, your turn. Torch is yours again.

Here goes.....:D. There is a lot to respond to....

Ok, lets assume the ritch man/lazarus is a parable. ALL Jesus parables are REAL things he used to COMPARE with OTHER REAL things. He never used MYTHOLOGICAL stories to compare with something real. Example: parable of the sower on different soils. Even though the parable was not meant to be teaching about farming, it was meant to teach about the word on different hearts, the story itself, farming was real none the less. You see where im going? Jesus never used myths to compare with realities.

Yes, I understand what you mean, but that is just the point. Jesus did not use mythology to get his points across....but he did use metaphor. "Death" for example is used metaphorically by Jesus.
A man responding to Jesus' invitation to be his follower said he would first have to bury his father. There was no indication that his father had already died but the suggestion was that he would be free to follow Jesus more fully after his father had passed away. But Jesus said, "let the dead bury their dead and you keep following me"......how do the dead bury their dead? What was Jesus really telling this man?

People were said to be "dead in their trespasses"....we know that these people were physically alive.....but spiritually dead.

When you analyse the details of this particular parable, particularly according to the fact that Jesus was preaching to Jews, they had to understand what he meant.....and since they had no scriptural teaching of heaven and hell....that thought would never have entered their mind. The idea of immortal souls going to heaven or hell came much later from Christendom's apostasy. (Borrowed from pagan Greek ideas)

Jesus said it was not always granted to people to grasp the full depth of his illustrations, so unless the disciples specifically asked for an explanation...(which the apostles often did)....they would not get the full import of all of them. It showed that they were not just passive listeners but genuinely wanting to understand.

Do you recall a time when Jesus spoke about "eating his flesh and drinking his blood"? His Jewish audience were at once stumbled and left in disgust. Jesus did not call them back but asked his apostles if they were going to leave as well? Peter said "Lord whom shall we go away to? You have the sayings of everlasting life".....so Jesus gave them the explanation of what he meant. These are lessons in teaching and response.....sometimes we react before we have waited for the explanation. Not everything is as it appears.

So, why did a vision talk with Jesus?

Jesus wasn't talking to a vision....he was part of the vision. It was Jesus who said it was a vision...remember? Jesus had been anointed with holy spirit and had powers that no other human had at that time. He was fulfilling a promise. The three apostles were granted a rare privilege of seeing Jesus as their glorified King.

The verse about no one has gone into heaven, the way i understood that is no one in all of history has the knowledge of heaven Jesus has and came to earth with it.

Actually Jesus did not recall any of his former life until his anointing after his baptism. Before that he was just Jesus the carpenter's son. He had no special abilities except perhaps his sinlessness and what that would have meant in mortal flesh. e.g. his perfect immune function would have meant that he never got sick and his perfect physical skills would have been remarkable....his optimal brain capacity would have meant exceptional intelligence and ability to retain knowledge, as the teachers at the temple soon realised when he spent three days with them. But he had no recall of his former life until Jehovah opened up the heavens to reveal it all. He spent 40 days in the wilderness coming to terms with this revelation and no doubt receiving instruction from his Father to aid him in his difficult course.

Paul said that Jesus was "the firstborn from the dead"....but he was not the first one resurrected. That privilege belongs to Elijah who raised the son of a widow long before Jesus came to the earth. So, how was he "firstborn from the dead"? He was the first human to be raised in a spirit body. His anointed ones would die the same death and experience the same resurrection. That is what it meant to be "baptized into his death".

What about the verse that says "youl see abraham, isaac and jacob in the kingdom of HEAVEN"? if they wer not there?

The only ones chosen to rule with Jesus in heaven were his disciples. The "new covenant" was made with them and the foundations of "heavenly Jerusalem" (God's kingdom) are the 12 apostles.

Those who died before Jesus will have positions of authority in the earthly part of the kingdom, just as they did before. The descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob formed the nation of fleshly Israel from whom the Messiah came. They all looked forward to the coming "seed" and what he would accomplish. Their faith was sustained by God's promises for the future. (Hebrews 11)

Paul: paul said the words "depart FROM the body" and "remain IN the body". This implies hes not talking of the resurrection, atleast in this case.

Paul mentioned physical bodies and spiritual bodies. It is not a difficult thing for the one 'recreating' a person to give them a body that will be sustained in the realm where they are assigned. In order to dwell in heaven, Christ's anointed ones have to be raised in an appropriate body. Fleshly bodies cannot exist in a spiritual realm. The anointed ones longed to be free of their ailing fleshly bodies and to be given new spirit bodies unshackled by the sin that weighed them down. This "glorious freedom" is what they longed for. Those who will live on earth will also get to experience life without the burden of sin and death. That is really something to look forward to. (Revelation 21:2-4)

Plus, if the resurection means we depart from this body, then that implies THIS body is not raised from death and thats not what the scripture states.

That is correct. Each one will be a 'recreation' of their former self. For those who died thousands of years ago, there would be no body to resurrect, not to mention those eaten by other creatures (sharks, crocs or lions) God must of necessity recreate them, instilling all their memories and personality so that they will recognise themselves and so will their loved ones.

Ok, the NDEs. I see your point about the delusions, halucinations and satan mingling in the thoughts. However, if satan MAKES someone concious outside there suspended body/brain, he has thus made his so called lie to become TRUE. You see? Also thr veridical NDEs see information that is very specific and just dont seam like something a evil spirit would just tell them.

What if satan is not making someone conscious outside their body, but implanting thoughts and visions in their head at a very vulnerable time? The demons are all around us and their intent is to deceive....how better than to muddy the waters about death? The idea of an immortal soul makes the teaching of the resurrection, redundant.
That is their agenda....to suggest to you that we don't really die, when God said we would. Satan is a liar and an opportunist.

For example. This lady and her husband wer driving a motercycle and they crashed. She pops out her body, sees the scene below. Then is sucked into the tunnel vortex. Sees light. Enters it. Is in a paradise. Sees her husband and her husband tells her she must return to take care of there kids and shed return to see him again.

So she returned. She knew he died in otherwords BEFORE she got the official doctors news that he died.

Could satan plant that movie in her head? I believe he could.
The Bible says that "satan transforms himself into an angel of light" and the one common thing that those who experience NDE's see is "the light". He is a mimic. I see the connection....do you?

Did satan really tell her he died when she was in the paradise setting? It just dont sound feasable.

It does when you understand his agenda. We were created to live in paradise....it has a natural appeal. The devil is a deceiver and he uses mimicry as bait to attract the uneducated and easily led. I believe that describes the majority of people in Christendom. It did when I was part of it. They blindly accept things without questioning them. We should question every teaching and research the words and their original meanings. We have so many resources available these days. :)
 
You don’t get to ask me to provide proof lol That’s not how it works. You’re the one that made an extraordinary claim. So the bruden of proof falls on you. If’s there’s evidence provide it. Testimonials are not evidence, we’ve been threw this already. If someone said the had a dream were elephants were flying are u going to believe elephants can fly? Yes you did make something very complex seem simple. How can u possibility tell NDE confirm hell? Because people claim that had visions of hell/heaven? Even if it’s true HOW DO U KNOW IT S TRUE!? Were u there to experience it with them?

Also it’s a fact that the people who experience them are not actually dead. They’re only near death. Hence the term near death experience. Being near death, a state in which the brain may undergo stress, be deprived of oxygen, release neurochemicals that can mimic the hallucinatory trips of drug users, or experience any one of the dozens of anomalous neurological anomalies, abnormalities, or disorders that have been documented by neurologists and neuroscientists. You see how complex that is. You just made it seem like you die, go to heaven or hell come back to life and tell everyone about lol

In psychology there’s a term for that. It’s called magical thinking.

I do get to ask you for proof. Heres why, i believe the NDErs are telling the truth, why? Because theres too many of them and in many cases they gain nothing in telling there story.

I cant prove there telling the truth, but i can say with an air of strong rationality, that they are telling the truth. You cannot say with rationality that there all lying.

Also reverting BACK to halucinations is again persistently misrepresenting the cimplexity of the subject because halucinations dont account for the veridical NDEs. And you say i oversimplify the subject now? Give me a break.
 
Here goes.....:D. There is a lot to respond to....



Yes, I understand what you mean, but that is just the point. Jesus did not use mythology to get his points across....but he did use metaphor. "Death" for example is used metaphorically by Jesus.
A man responding to Jesus' invitation to be his follower said he would first have to bury his father. There was no indication that his father had already died but the suggestion was that he would be free to follow Jesus more fully after his father had passed away. But Jesus said, "let the dead bury their dead and you keep following me"......how do the dead bury their dead? What was Jesus really telling this man?

People were said to be "dead in their trespasses"....we know that these people were physically alive.....but spiritually dead.

When you analyse the details of this particular parable, particularly according to the fact that Jesus was preaching to Jews, they had to understand what he meant.....and since they had no scriptural teaching of heaven and hell....that thought would never have entered their mind. The idea of immortal souls going to heaven or hell came much later from Christendom's apostasy. (Borrowed from pagan Greek ideas)

Jesus said it was not always granted to people to grasp the full depth of his illustrations, so unless the disciples specifically asked for an explanation...(which the apostles often did)....they would not get the full import of all of them. It showed that they were not just passive listeners but genuinely wanting to understand.

Do you recall a time when Jesus spoke about "eating his flesh and drinking his blood"? His Jewish audience were at once stumbled and left in disgust. Jesus did not call them back but asked his apostles if they were going to leave as well? Peter said "Lord whom shall we go away to? You have the sayings of everlasting life".....so Jesus gave them the explanation of what he meant. These are lessons in teaching and response.....sometimes we react before we have waited for the explanation. Not everything is as it appears.



Jesus wasn't talking to a vision....he was part of the vision. It was Jesus who said it was a vision...remember? Jesus had been anointed with holy spirit and had powers that no other human had at that time. He was fulfilling a promise. The three apostles were granted a rare privilege of seeing Jesus as their glorified King.



Actually Jesus did not recall any of his former life until his anointing after his baptism. Before that he was just Jesus the carpenter's son. He had no special abilities except perhaps his sinlessness and what that would have meant in mortal flesh. e.g. his perfect immune function would have meant that he never got sick and his perfect physical skills would have been remarkable....his optimal brain capacity would have meant exceptional intelligence and ability to retain knowledge, as the teachers at the temple soon realised when he spent three days with them. But he had no recall of his former life until Jehovah opened up the heavens to reveal it all. He spent 40 days in the wilderness coming to terms with this revelation and no doubt receiving instruction from his Father to aid him in his difficult course.

Paul said that Jesus was "the firstborn from the dead"....but he was not the first one resurrected. That privilege belongs to Elijah who raised the son of a widow long before Jesus came to the earth. So, how was he "firstborn from the dead"? He was the first human to be raised in a spirit body. His anointed ones would die the same death and experience the same resurrection. That is what it meant to be "baptized into his death".



The only ones chosen to rule with Jesus in heaven were his disciples. The "new covenant" was made with them and the foundations of "heavenly Jerusalem" (God's kingdom) are the 12 apostles.

Those who died before Jesus will have positions of authority in the earthly part of the kingdom, just as they did before. The descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob formed the nation of fleshly Israel from whom the Messiah came. They all looked forward to the coming "seed" and what he would accomplish. Their faith was sustained by God's promises for the future. (Hebrews 11)



Paul mentioned physical bodies and spiritual bodies. It is not a difficult thing for the one 'recreating' a person to give them a body that will be sustained in the realm where they are assigned. In order to dwell in heaven, Christ's anointed ones have to be raised in an appropriate body. Fleshly bodies cannot exist in a spiritual realm. The anointed ones longed to be free of their ailing fleshly bodies and to be given new spirit bodies unshackled by the sin that weighed them down. This "glorious freedom" is what they longed for. Those who will live on earth will also get to experience life without the burden of sin and death. That is really something to look forward to. (Revelation 21:2-4)



That is correct. Each one will be a 'recreation' of their former self. For those who died thousands of years ago, there would be no body to resurrect, not to mention those eaten by other creatures (sharks, crocs or lions) God must of necessity recreate them, instilling all their memories and personality so that they will recognise themselves and so will their loved ones.



What if satan is not making someone conscious outside their body, but implanting thoughts and visions in their head at a very vulnerable time? The demons are all around us and their intent is to deceive....how better than to muddy the waters about death? The idea of an immortal soul makes the teaching of the resurrection, redundant.
That is their agenda....to suggest to you that we don't really die, when God said we would. Satan is a liar and an opportunist.



Could satan plant that movie in her head? I believe he could.
The Bible says that "satan transforms himself into an angel of light" and the one common thing that those who experience NDE's see is "the light". He is a mimic. I see the connection....do you?



It does when you understand his agenda. We were created to live in paradise....it has a natural appeal. The devil is a deceiver and he uses mimicry as bait to attract the uneducated and easily led. I believe that describes the majority of people in Christendom. It did when I was part of it. They blindly accept things without questioning them. We should question every teaching and research the words and their original meanings. We have so many resources available these days. :)


Ok, tell me what everything symbolizes with the ritch man?

Mathew :17-3 "Then Moses and Elijah appeared to them, TALKING with Jesus."

Its true satan appears as a angel of light, but, theres also a true light as well. I know i asked this before, but the fruit of the light from these NDEs is love, peace and joy. And i cant help but state, isnt that the fruit of the Holy Spirit mentioned in galatians 5:22?

also, you can apply meditation knowledge and put in effort and project your own conciousness out of your body your self. Ive done it 3 times. Its not dreamy either.

I read one guy, he did this and went to a house of his school teacher and then told her 3 objects that wer in her house. He was accurate. But.....satan told him the objects? despite thw fact he applied knowledge and effort to pull this test off BY HIMSELF?
 
Theres one more question i got. If God recreates our body, how would it truly be US?

Under my model, the spirits are taken out of there temporary holding places of heaven or hell and reunited with the recreated body and then it truly CAN be US. You see?

Also, how do you do those qoutes in sections on the forum?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Ok, tell me what everything symbolizes with the ritch man?

OK....here is the parable in full....and my understanding of it.

Luke 16:19-31....(The Bible in Living English)
“But once upon a time there was a rich man, and he used to wear purple and lawn in a round of gaiety and splendor day after day. 20 And a poor man, Lazarus by name, lay sick on the ground at his gate, ulcerated 21 and wishing he could have a meal out of what dropped on the floor from the rich man’s table; yes, and the dogs too came and licked over his sores."

This translation begins by unmistakably presenting it as a parable. The Rich Man was not said to be wicked, nor was the beggar said to be righteous. They were just on opposite sides of the social fence so to speak....each in the extreme of their opposite status.
The beggar would have been happy with a few crumbs dropping from the rich man's table....but they were never forthcoming.

"22 Well, the poor man died, and he was carried off to Abraham’s bosom by the angels. And the rich man died too, and was buried; 23 and in the world of the dead, being in tortures, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham in the distance, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he called out ‘Father Abraham, take pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in pain in this flame’; 25 but Abraham said ‘My child, remember that you had your good things paid over during your life, and Lazarus his bad likewise; but now here he is comforted and you are in pain. 26 And withal between us and you there is planted a great gulf so that those who want to go over from here to you may not be able, and that they may not cross from there to us.’u"

This is a change in their status. Jews did not believe in a "heaven or hell" scenario, so Christendom's spin on this particular parable was not even in their minds. "The world of the dead" is "Sheol" (the grave)

The once favoured Pharisees now lost their position (Abraham's bosom was a position denoting God's favour) and it was gained by the spiritually impoverished ones whom the Pharisees had scornfully neglected. They were far from the kind of shepherds in Jesus' illustrations who searched for their "lost sheep" with great care and concern. Jesus was that Shepherd and he turned the hearts of these "lost sheep" back to Jehovah. These were then offered positions in the Kingdom, whereas the Pharisees lost the privilege. Jesus' teachings created their torment. He exposed them as hypocrites at every opportunity as did John the Baptist.
They hated Jesus enough to plot his death.

"27 And he said ‘Then, father, pray send him to my family 28 (for I have five brothers) to testify to them, that they may not also come to this place of torture’; 29 but Abraham said ‘They have Moses and the prophets, let them listen to them.’ 30 And he said ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them they will repent’; 31 but he told him ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be satisfied even if someone rises from the dead.’”

These "brothers" (possibly the scribes) were as bad as one another....they all had God's word through Moses and the prophets to guide them, but they ignored or altered the things God had taught them and they silenced the prophets sent to correct them. The 'lost sheep' to whom Jesus was sent could preach to these ones till the cows came home, or even if someone returned from the dead to enlighten them, they would still not listen. What they lost was permanent.....

This is to me the whole import of the parable.

Mathew :17-3 "Then Moses and Elijah appeared to them, TALKING with Jesus."

Yes, Jesus was part of the vision. We do not know how the transfiguration was provided because the Bible does not say. But Jesus gave his apostles a vision of himself in his Kingdom glory as he had promised. There was a cloud that descended and they all disappeared, then Jesus emerged.

Its true satan appears as a angel of light, but, theres also a true light as well. I know i asked this before, but the fruit of the light from these NDEs is love, peace and joy. And i cant help but state, isnt that the fruit of the Holy Spirit mentioned in galatians 5:22?

The "angel of light" routine is intended to accomplish what? It is part of his deception. He mimics what God does so as to draw humans to what God had instilled in humankind....a need for love peace and joy....but it is an empty illusion. It leads people down the wrong road....to death. (Matthew 7:21-23)

also, you can apply meditation knowledge and put in effort and project your own conciousness out of your body your self. Ive done it 3 times. Its not dreamy either.

Can I ask you what you believe "meditation" is for a Christian.

All I know is that God's people were warned not to have anything to do with spiritistic practices. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) Contacting the dead (common in the spiritistic worship practiced by the Canaanites) was forbidden in Israel. So can you see God providing contact with dead loved ones when it was against his law? I see the devil at work here taking advantage of people's ignorance concerning this subject. Here is no doubt that these things take place but who is providing the experience?

I read one guy, he did this and went to a house of his school teacher and then told her 3 objects that wer in her house. He was accurate. But.....satan told him the objects? despite the fact he applied knowledge and effort to pull this test off BY HIMSELF?

And the demons can't tell people all kinds of things that no one else would know? Seriously? They know everything about everyone....including their weaknesses. They will fully exploit people's ignorance. Their tricks are at time incredibly childish..... "3 item in her home"? The demons could have told him how many nails were in the framework.

"Know your enemy" is the first rule of successful warfare.....we are at war with the devil, but many people invite this "angel of light" into their homes and allow him to pull the wool over their eyes. Are we a victim?

That is how I understand these things....
 
OK....here is the parable in full....and my understanding of it.

Luke 16:19-31....(The Bible in Living English)
“But once upon a time there was a rich man, and he used to wear purple and lawn in a round of gaiety and splendor day after day. 20 And a poor man, Lazarus by name, lay sick on the ground at his gate, ulcerated 21 and wishing he could have a meal out of what dropped on the floor from the rich man’s table; yes, and the dogs too came and licked over his sores."

This translation begins by unmistakably presenting it as a parable. The Rich Man was not said to be wicked, nor was the beggar said to be righteous. They were just on opposite sides of the social fence so to speak....each in the extreme of their opposite status.
The beggar would have been happy with a few crumbs dropping from the rich man's table....but they were never forthcoming.

"22 Well, the poor man died, and he was carried off to Abraham’s bosom by the angels. And the rich man died too, and was buried; 23 and in the world of the dead, being in tortures, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham in the distance, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he called out ‘Father Abraham, take pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in pain in this flame’; 25 but Abraham said ‘My child, remember that you had your good things paid over during your life, and Lazarus his bad likewise; but now here he is comforted and you are in pain. 26 And withal between us and you there is planted a great gulf so that those who want to go over from here to you may not be able, and that they may not cross from there to us.’u"

This is a change in their status. Jews did not believe in a "heaven or hell" scenario, so Christendom's spin on this particular parable was not even in their minds. "The world of the dead" is "Sheol" (the grave)

The once favoured Pharisees now lost their position (Abraham's bosom was a position denoting God's favour) and it was gained by the spiritually impoverished ones whom the Pharisees had scornfully neglected. They were far from the kind of shepherds in Jesus' illustrations who searched for their "lost sheep" with great care and concern. Jesus was that Shepherd and he turned the hearts of these "lost sheep" back to Jehovah. These were then offered positions in the Kingdom, whereas the Pharisees lost the privilege. Jesus' teachings created their torment. He exposed them as hypocrites at every opportunity as did John the Baptist.
They hated Jesus enough to plot his death.

"27 And he said ‘Then, father, pray send him to my family 28 (for I have five brothers) to testify to them, that they may not also come to this place of torture’; 29 but Abraham said ‘They have Moses and the prophets, let them listen to them.’ 30 And he said ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them they will repent’; 31 but he told him ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be satisfied even if someone rises from the dead.’”

These "brothers" (possibly the scribes) were as bad as one another....they all had God's word through Moses and the prophets to guide them, but they ignored or altered the things God had taught them and they silenced the prophets sent to correct them. The 'lost sheep' to whom Jesus was sent could preach to these ones till the cows came home, or even if someone returned from the dead to enlighten them, they would still not listen. What they lost was permanent.....

This is to me the whole import of the parable.

Ok, so, all that is what the parable means you say. This still doesent explain how the ritch man and lazarus can still talk after being dead? Unless jesus is using a mythological story to illustrate a reality about the pharasees and the other group.

Yes, Jesus was part of the vision. We do not know how the transfiguration was provided because the Bible does not say. But Jesus gave his apostles a vision of himself in his Kingdom glory as he had promised. There was a cloud that descended and they all disappeared, then Jesus emerged.

So, a vision can talk? Moses and elijah wer talking to Jesus.

The "angel of light" routine is intended to accomplish what? It is part of his deception. He mimics what God does so as to draw humans to what God had instilled in humankind....a need for love peace and joy....but it is an empty illusion. It leads people down the wrong road....to death. (Matthew 7:21-23)

So if satan can mimic literally love, peace and joy, how can God possibly hold anyone accountable for being decieved, since there would be no test or way to know if god or satan is at work? Not to mention, these NDEs change people for the better too. I suppose satan does that positive change as well?



Can I ask you what you believe "meditation" is for a Christian.

All I know is that God's people were warned not to have anything to do with spiritistic practices. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) Contacting the dead (common in the spiritistic worship practiced by the Canaanites) was forbidden in Israel. So can you see God providing contact with dead loved ones when it was against his law? I see the devil at work here taking advantage of people's ignorance concerning this subject. Here is no doubt that these things take place but who is providing the experience?

When you do the meditation, YOU are providing the experience, you, not God nor satan, but you yourself. Because you apply knowledge and effort that produces a result, no less different when you apply knowledge and effort to getting in shape or making a garden. You provide the experience.

And the demons can't tell people all kinds of things that no one else would know? Seriously? They know everything about everyone....including their weaknesses. They will fully exploit people's ignorance. Their tricks are at time incredibly childish..... "3 item in her home"? The demons could have told him how many nails were in the framework.

"Know your enemy" is the first rule of successful warfare.....we are at war with the devil, but many people invite this "angel of light" into their homes and allow him to pull the wool over their eyes. Are we a victim?

That is how I understand these things....

True, satan could tell him this info, but satan dont know everything and he, nor his demons cant always be 100% on top of there job perfectly. And, how can we descern whether god or satan is at work and if we cant, why would God hold us accountable for being decieved?
 
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I just screwed up the qoutes again. I dont know how to do it right.

To see my full response, click on your qoute in my post.

Never mind, figured it out.
 
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