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Jesus said such & such, question for Jewish Xians, Jews reading NT

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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Flankerl said:
But now I know about your bias. :)
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Heretic to Rabbinical Judaism, after the Canonization, the Talmud, etc...
If that seems like a bias...

In other words, if that seems like a bias, then you shouldn't have used the word, 'heretic', in the first place. You should have said, 'disagree with', or such.
 
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Flankerl

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Disciple of Jesus said:
Hence, subjective, and your use of the word, 'heretic', arbitrary. Or, such, not really clear what you mean.
[Subjectively a heretic
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Why does it trigger Christians so much when we disregard their J-boy?
Either misunderstood or a false messiah. If he even encouraged disregarding the Torah like his successors did than he is a Heretic.

Tough luck.

Just like Sabbatai Zevi btw. Though we are 100% certain that he existed. Unlike J-boy.


Disciple of Jesus said:
Heretic to Rabbinical Judaism, after the Canonization, the Talmud, etc...
Click to expand...

No even before that. If you knew when the canonization actually took place and when the early Christians stopped being Jews you'd know that.


Disciple of Jesus said:
If that seems like a bias...

In other words, if that seems like a bias, then you shouldn't have used the word, 'heretic', in the first place. You should have said, 'disagree with', or such.
Click to expand...

Nah he's a heretic and there is absolutely nothing you can do about that. :)
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Flankerl said:
No even before that. If you knew when the canonization actually took place and when the early Christians stopped being Jews you'd know that.
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Actually, Jesus had different religious beliefs. So, was always a "heretic" to rabbinical judaism religious paradigm, if it matched the pre-canonization. Same with the followers, [obviously.
So, always "heretical", to your definition.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
shunyadragon said:
To codify scripture is the commitment of a religion is valid regardless at the time the scripture is codified. I do not think it is compelling argument for the the validity or theistic certainty as Revelation of the scripture as codified.
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I wasn't making an argument for the validity of the methodology, etc.

However, it was codified.
 
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Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Disciple of Jesus said:
This question is for Jewish Christians, or, Jews , or those with Jewish ancestry, reading the NT:

How do you:
•read the fact that Jesus was rebuking, /perhaps/, your ancestors.
• the idea that Jesus said, or may have said, things that somewhat disparaged the religio-historic paradigm of 'Jews', of the time.
• the idea that some of the text seems to disparage the religio-historic paradigm, of Jews, of the time, even though Jesus may not have said it.

I know that there are answers to all these questions, however, the question is how do you read, interpret, or justify, some of the material.
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Seeing you have no idea that those Jews were not true Jews.

Maybe instead of cherry picking Verse's, you should try reading the whole chapter, but then you probably still couldn't make any sense of the chapter.

Notice Christ Jesus telling those Jews in John 8:44---"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it"

Seeing Christ Jesus telling those Jews, that Abraham is not their father, but their father being a murderer from the beginning.
So who was it that was the first to commit murder ( Cain ) was it not.
Therefore Christ Jesus telling those Jews their father is Cain and not Abraham, seeing it was Cain who committed the first murder.
Genesis 4:8--"And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him"

Maybe instead of your cherry picking Verse's, you should study things out, before you make any comments on and about things in the Bible.
 
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Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
shunyadragon said:
I would not consider Jesus to operating from a liberal Jewish perspective by today's understanding of liberal religious or political perspective. Jesus was a rebel in his own perspective. In some ways he demanded the compliance to the Law rejecting the pragmatic corrupt Jewish establishment that compromised with the Romans.
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That all depends on which Jews, Jesus is in reference to.

Note Romans 9:6--" Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"

Therefore they are not all Jews, which are of Israel.
So what's the difference between one Jew and another Jew, What is it that separates the two?

Note that Jesus denounce a certain sect of Jews, who came to him professing to be the children of Abraham's.

John 8:39--"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father, Jesus said to them, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham"

Notice Jesus said ( If you were) meaning those Jews are not the children of Abraham.
So who's children are they?

Jesus tells them in Verse 44, exactly who their father is
Verse 44--" You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it"

So who was the murderer in the beginning
( Cain) that's who, so Jesus telling those Jews their father is Cain, Seeing Cain committed the first murder.
Genesis 4:8--"And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him"

There you have it, Cain committed the first murder. Therefore those Jews, that Jesus was speaking to, are the children of Cain's and not Abraham's children.

In the old testament scriptures, the children of Cain's are called ( kenits) and those Jews which were masquerading as Jews of Israel, the children of Abraham's. Unto which Jesus called them out exposing them as the children of Cain's. (Kenits)

All a person needs to do, is follow the genealogy of Cain's which comes down as being called ( Kenits ) the seed ( children) of Cain's.
 
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pearl

Well-Known Member
shunyadragon said:
I would not consider Jesus to operating from a liberal Jewish perspective by today's understanding of liberal religious or political perspective. Jesus was a rebel in his own perspective. In some ways he demanded the compliance to the Law rejecting the pragmatic corrupt Jewish establishment that compromised with the Romans.
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The scene at the temple opposing the 'money changers' exemplified just that. I would not consider Jesus a liberal simply because he argued from the 'heart of the Torah', the oral tradition,
and was completely within the confines of the arguments of the Judaism of His time.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
metis said:
The descendants after Noah's generation came from Seth, not Cain (see 1st chart).
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The argument seems to be that those Jews, the Jews that Jesus rebuked, were masquerading, as real Jews, however what was the argument, in meaning. All the Jews, that weren't following Jesus, some of the Jews, etc...
 
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Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
metis said:
You might want to check this out: Family tree of the Bible - Wikipedia
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I look at what you had given, My question is, Who ever put this together, how did they get Cain being Adam's son

Adam is not the Father of Cain, The Bible gives evidence of this.

1st John 3:12--"
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous"

There you have it, The Father of Cain being the wicked one, this being the Serpent in
Genesis 3:15.

Eve had two sons, Cain and Able.
Able being the son of Adam.
Cain being the son of the Serpent.

I don't know how people can not see this.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Disciple of Jesus said:
The argument seems to be that those Jews, the Jews that Jesus rebuked, were masquerading, as real Jews, however what was the argument, in meaning. All the Jews, that weren't following Jesus, some of the Jews, etc...
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A reminder that being a "Jew" is a nationality, not a religion.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Faithofchristian said:
I look at what you had given, My question is, Who ever put this together, how did they get Cain being Adam's son

Adam is not the Father of Cain, The Bible gives evidence of this.

1st John 3:12--"
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous"

There you have it, The Father of Cain being the wicked one, this being the Serpent in
Genesis 3:15.

Eve had two sons, Cain and Able.
Able being the son of Adam.
Cain being the son of the Serpent.

I don't know how people can not see this.
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And, the 'fake Jews', that Jesus rebuked...
All the Pharisees...
Some of the Pharisees...
A mixture in all groups...
All the Jews that didn't follow Jesus...

Vague as to meaningless
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Faithofchristian said:
I don't know how people can not see this.
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Because it ain't there.

Here: Genesis 4:
[1]
Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, "I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD."


[2] And again, she bore his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, and Cain a tiller of the ground.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Disciple of Jesus said:
What does that have to do with that argument?

Where did I say anything about the definition of Jew, especially contextually, referring to that argument?
And that isn't my argument...
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Because you wrote this: "...the Jews that Jesus rebuked, were masquerading, as real Jews, ...". Now, combine that with my previous post that corrected your error.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
metis said:
Because you wrote this: "...the Jews that Jesus rebuked, were masquerading, as real Jews, ...". Now, combine that with my previous post that corrected your error.
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What? That isn't my argument. That is the theory presented by Faithofchristian

Its a ridiculous theory.

Anyways, since were arguing in theory, still wanted that explained.
 
shunyadragon

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
metis said:
A reminder that being a "Jew" is a nationality, not a religion.
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I believe Judaism (Jew?) is primarily a religion, and Israel does not argue solely that Israel is strictly a Jewish nation, as originaly it was established as basically a secular nation established for a homeland for Jews.. I think this view has a degree of hypocracy.
 
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